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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
EDHarmonica, by Seydel
EDHarmonica, by Seydel
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IaNerd
47 posts
Sep 05, 2018
4:55 AM
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Seydel has just launched a MAJOR initiative built around a new (?) alternate tuning. See https://edharmonica.com/
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ridge
744 posts
Sep 05, 2018
8:11 AM
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IaNerd,
I took some time to check out the website and listen to some of the clips. It does seem like a pretty significant move. Do you have any affiliation or are you just sharing your own discovery? I was only asking to see if you were the player for the example clips.
Dan
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Ridge's YouTube
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JInx
1389 posts
Sep 05, 2018
8:58 AM
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I’m a buyer
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IaNerd
48 posts
Sep 05, 2018
8:59 AM
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I am a Seydel customer, but have no business affiliation with Seydel. I have not recorded anything with anyone.
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AppalachiaBlues
216 posts
Sep 05, 2018
9:11 AM
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It's an interesting innovation, in the on-going quest to improve upon Richter.
I like the idea of an octave across 3 holes. And I like the idea of a consistent pattern across all the octaves. And I like the no "double C" that flaws Solo tuning.
Looking at the note pattern, I was immediately struck by the opportunity to produce a 12-hole version. (The 10-hole version shown looks "cut off". Just repeat the notes of holes 8 and 9 in holes 11 and 12, but 1 octave up. That would be great. The C-model shown would give you a G3 in 3 draw, G4 in 6 draw, G5 in 9 draw, and G6 in 12 draw.
Seyel - if you're reading this: PLEASE offer the Solist Pro 12 Steel in this tuning. I will buy one immediately.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Sep 05, 2018 9:21 AM
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dchurch
186 posts
Sep 05, 2018
9:37 AM
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AppBlues,
Seydel has a config option for that.
SOLIST PRO 12 STEEL configurable:
Fully configurable Richter-diatonic harmonica with stainless steel reeds and 12 holes.
Here's the link address:
https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel1847.sf/seccec0d2962c/;SessionID=aae6fe49aa8a094d9145968b4146ee1d?ObjectPath=/Shops/Seydel/Categories/Configurator/Config_Harmonikas
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It's about time I got around to this.
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IaNerd
49 posts
Sep 05, 2018
10:17 AM
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In their website's tuning diagram for Cmajor, there is a recurrent gap in the overblow layer. I think (not certain) that this "gap" is actually an enharmonic C, i.e. the tonic. If that's true, then three adjacent chambers can in fact play from tonic to octave. Which means a Big Six could play two entire octaves, and a Solist Pro 12 could play four entire octaves.
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SweetBlood
81 posts
Sep 05, 2018
1:00 PM
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That does look like it would be great for 2nd and 4th positions. It would totally screw me up in 3rd and 12th which I am the most comfortable with. I would love to try one.
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SweetBlood
82 posts
Sep 05, 2018
2:08 PM
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I wonder if these will come set up so that the overblows are easily available.
Also, as I was thinking about 3rd position not working the way I am used too, I realized that if you flat the 7 essentially making this a C mixolydian harp(F major) you would get something more like 3rd position in 2nd position. Then you would need all of the overblows to play chromatically and the "gap" would move to the bend side(like the 5 draw on a standard tuned harp).
Technically, I think this would be 3rd position because flatting the seven would effectively make F major the key center even though an F is only available as a bend.
In any case I really want to try this tuning, as presented, as well as with the flatted 7th.
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JInx
1390 posts
Sep 06, 2018
3:12 PM
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This layout is a pentatonic machine
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WinslowYerxa
1613 posts
Sep 07, 2018
11:29 AM
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The tuning looks like it offers some possibilities, and the promoter has helpfully provided many examples of its use.
That said, I'm amused by the messianic tone, as if this tuning is the one that will part the waves and show the way to the promised land. I've seen this many times before with harmonica tunings, none of which swept away existing tunings or the habits of more than a few harmonica players.
It's interesting that promoters of alternate tunings usually set their tunings in apposition to established tunings, in this case standard diatonic tuning.
The myth that standard tuning was invented by someone named Joseph Richter in 1826 is just that: a myth. For some in-depth investigation on the mysterious Mr. Richter, check out Pat Missin's article on this topic.
The standard note layout of diatonic harmonicas appears to have evolved not only in harmonicas, but in concertinas and accordions as well, over the course of the 19th century. As late as 1880, variants were still being sold, as noted in US instructional books of the period. What is now mistakenly called "Richter tuning" appears to be the settled result of trial and error over a long period, not just the sudden invention of a single individual who cannot be located for certain in space or time, and yet seems to have bent the world to his will.
Given that standard tuning has a long evolutionary history, perhaps it's not so easily swept away by the bright idea of a single individual at a single point in time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with whatever note arrangement you want to set up inside the little box of reeds we call a harmonica. But every note layout gives you some things and takes away others. The ideal tuning is a little like the fountain of youth or the philosopher's stone that turned lead into gold.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
The Harmonica Collective - November 1-3 in New Orleans
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Sep 07, 2018 11:33 AM
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IaNerd
50 posts
Sep 07, 2018
1:59 PM
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Anybody know WHO came up with this tuning?
(Knowing who devised it will not make the tuning inherently better or worse; I realize this. But as a person who follows these things, I am academically curious about its origins.)
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WinslowYerxa
1614 posts
Sep 07, 2018
5:46 PM
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I received an email from Doug Rawlings, who has been unable to post here, with a query:
"You said that alternate tunings provide some things, AND take away others. What is the take away from this tuning, compared to Richter. I'm intrigued by this ED tuning, but want to know the draw backs."
I figured this was better answered in public, and he'll see it here even if he can't post.
The ED tuning does offer consistency from octave to octave, and a compact intra-octave cell of only three holes. All the bends are draw bends, and all the overbends are overblows.
However, it lacks one of the notes (F, or maybe F#) of the major scale to which it's tuned, requiring draw bends for any melody that contains that note. The promoter gives a compendium of tunes that don't require the missing note, which is nice, but that's by way of compensating for something left out.
The two chords it gives you are A minor and G. The I and ii chord in G, or the V chord and vi chord in C. Interesting but not an essential pairing. You give up what on a C harp would be C, G7, G9, D minor, Dmi6, B diminished and B half-diminished (aka Bm7b5).
You also give up some of the dissonant intervals that add spice to standard tuning: G and F, (draw 2 and 5) A and B (draw 3 and 6, 6 and 7, 7 and 10).
You give up the ability to play a complete scale in octaves or other harmonic intervals, as every octave has one scale note missing. Standard tuning does have some octave notes missing (no lower for Draw 5 (F) or 6 (A), no upper for Draw 7 (B), but you can play complete scale in octaves from Draw 3 to Draw 6, with four additional octave intervals below and one above this range.
Re position playing. Two things that are desirable here are a tonic note that isn't a bend, and a chord or partial chord.
First, second and third positions in standard tuning have non-bent tonic notes and full-on home chords. Three other positions (4th, 5th, and 12th) have non-bend tonic notes and at least some chord scraps. Seventh is a little wonky due to its diminished fifth, but some people use it, including Joe Filisko and Jon Gindick.
ED tuning gives you unbent tonic notes for six of the 12 key positions, but tonic chords for only two (A minor and G in the example given). It does give you partial chords for two others (BD for B minor and CE for C major).
is the octave-to-octave inconsistency of standard tuning a drawback or a joy to explore? Depends on your point of view, I guess. I remember sitting in a coffee shop once with jazz pianist Fred Hersch and jazz harmonica player Toots Thielemans (they were gigging together in town at the time). Toots mostly played chromatic with its standard octave-to-octave consistency but was quite familiar with standard diatonic tuning, having recorded with it several times. We described diatonic tuning to Fred, who got a very uncomfortable look on his face and said something like, "That would give me nightmares." But that's coming from someone whose whole basis for getting around on his instrument is octave-to-octave consistency.
Me, I delight in the fact that up here are blow bends, down there are deep, rich draw bends and full chords, while the middle gives you a quick step through the scale. It's not so much inconsistent octave to octave, as much as it's a tuning that's three octaves wide. But that's me.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
The Harmonica Collective - November 1-3 in New Orleans
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Sep 07, 2018 5:50 PM
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nacoran
9955 posts
Sep 07, 2018
7:13 PM
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Is anyone else amused by the name, especially since so many of those Cialis ads featured old harp players on their soundtrack?
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Harmonicatunes
264 posts
Sep 07, 2018
7:40 PM
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Every tuning has swings and roundabouts. I came up with Major Cross 20 years ago, which greatly facilitates tune playing for those hard wired into 2nd position. But standard Richter is better than Major Cross for blues.
This tuning strikes me the same way, great for some things, perhaps less so for others.
I like the possibilities for draw bends in the top octave, for blues in G for example. Brendan Power's tunings achieve similar results, but with a different layout.
One downside for beginners is that a C major scale requires a full tone bend to get the F. As this is a relatively advanced technique, the instrument wouldn't suit beginners looking to play melodies, in my view.
The sound samples are quite compelling, and have clearly been done by a good player. Presumably the developer of the tuning?
It's nice to see this initiative, particular given the support from Seydel, who are the go to company for alternate tunings, and much else besides. Here's hoping it does well.
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Tony Eyers
Australia
www.HarmonicaAcademy.com
everyone plays...
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Gnarly
2544 posts
Sep 07, 2018
11:55 PM
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I have latched onto Major Cross, it's circular on the bottom, and has all the major scale notes. If you know Melody Maker, Major Cross will be fairly easy.
This tuning is interesting, but I am not sure I would bring it to gigs. Guess I will have to try it to see . . .
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wheel
611 posts
Sep 08, 2018
12:43 PM
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I've just ordered a key of G. Very interesting idea!
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Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine)
http://kolesnichenko-harmonica.com/
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AW
178 posts
Sep 08, 2018
2:25 PM
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I'm not entirely sure who came up with this tuning, but I heard about it from Isaac on this forum in 2012.
It is fun to play.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/4324880.htm
Last Edited by AW on Sep 08, 2018 2:40 PM
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Gnarly
2545 posts
Sep 09, 2018
10:10 PM
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I built one--had to replace four draw reeds on top. Isaac stated that reed swaps weren't necessary, but I think he must leave the top Richter (or whatever you would like me to call Standard Tuning).
So let's try it out for a couple of days. If I don't decide it's for me, perhaps one of you here would like to give it a try.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Sep 09, 2018 10:52 PM
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Rishió
29 posts
Dec 21, 2018
7:12 AM
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Recently received my EDharmonica from Amazon to try out the tuning before I invest in higher quality builds from Seydel (which is quite a bit better but also quite a bit more $$). These ones are a decent value/starter, but I’ve been spoiled by the smooth, rich tones that come out of a Seydel so I’ll have to upgrade.
Wanted to share my thoughts on the tuning.
- Extended Range over Richter: 3 1/3 Octaves (versus 3 for Richter) on a 10 hole where 1/2 tone is lost on the high end (which I rarely use in jam sessions) and 1.5 tones are gained on the bottom (I always desire to go a little bit lower while playing). A C harp, for example, starts on an A and ends on a B.
- Consistency from Octave to Octave which is huge for me when it comes to improvising.
- 10 out of 12 Notes available per Octave with only draw bends needed. The other 2 notes can be obtained via Overblows.
- Most frequently used notes are generally available without bending (depending on the position).
- Infrequent notes (the two missing) require Overblowing
- Same Breath Pattern throughout and draw bends on every hole.
- Contains rich double bends but avoids the tricky 3 hole triple bend on hole 3, Richter. I guess this is a plus or minus depending on the person. Plus for me since 3 is half a tone too much to control precisely without years of training.
- No duplicate notes in an Octave (I prefer having only one path rather than too many options).
- 4 Major and 4 Minor Scales with only draw bends.
- 6 Major Pentatonic, 6 Minor Pentatonic and 3 Blues Scale with only draw bends. Super!
- 14 4-hole Octaves Splits no matter where you are in the harp! Awesome! I love octaves and this is loaded with them.
- Numerous Double Stops, 3 hole and 5 hole splits.
- VI Minor Chord everywhere on blows. V Major Chord everywhere on Draw. At the moment, I like having a minor chord on the top and major on the bottom. A nice balance between happy and sad.. or so it seems.
It’s cake for me, but I wouldn’t say it’s for everyone. Definitely not for a Blues Purist. I like the Blues but not as much as I like folk/acoustic music, and general jamming with different kinds of music as I travel across the world. The ED is a Pentatonic machine that can also play the blues and, in my opinion, it really excels at that. It feels like a nice balance between simplicity and complexity without going too far in either direction.
I’ve explored a few tunings (Richter, PowerBender - my other favorite) and researched several (diminished, augmented, circular, solo, Richter Extended, etc), but nothing feels like it hits all the marks for what I’m looking for like the ED does. I’m going to try it out a little bit longer but I’m really liking this tuning. So much so that I’m planning on retiring my current one and focusing exclusively on ED.
Last Edited by Rishió on Dec 21, 2018 7:14 AM
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dchurch
215 posts
Dec 22, 2018
8:38 PM
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Thanks Rishio,
It's been a few months and I am wondering if other folks that have given this tuning a shot wouldn't mind posting an update. Are you digging it, or over it...?
Gnarly, I assume you used a Richter A harp to build the C EDHarp, requiring the replacement of 7,8,9,10 draw reeds, correct? I'm thinking about putting one together for a test drive.
I’m not looking to replace Richter I just think it might be a practical alternate tuning to add to my rep.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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Gnarly
2606 posts
Dec 23, 2018
12:24 AM
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That's correct, it was an A.
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