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jazz on diatonic versus chromatic
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FastFourier
27 posts
Feb 03, 2018
9:01 PM
In my opinion, many types of jazz sound better and more natural on chromatic harmonica than on diatonic. As an example, compare the following versions of Dave Brubeck's well known jazz piece "Take Five," played on diatonic and chromatic harmonicas :

Diatonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJRXwC0zEqs

Chromatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF3Q3J6LSJY

In the diatonic version, many sections just sound painful as the performer struggles to hit the notes by bending and overblowing. The chromatic version, on the other hand, sounds easy and natural, and the performer is able to improvise in a way that the the diatonic performer cannot.

Of course, I'm not claiming that you can't play jazz on diatonic harmonica - I am a big fan of Howard Levy's music - but I would argue that there is a large area of jazz in which the chromatic harmonica has a huge advantage over the diatonic.
jbone
2474 posts
Feb 03, 2018
11:02 PM
I agree. Not that I do jazz really but on the swing blues we do I find it easier just having the whole scale right there. I don't even do half notes but I find so much more possibility with a chromatic. For a long time I used the chro for 3rd position only. In recent months- maybe 2 years- I have been trying to find places in roots and rock where I can do 1st position parts with a chromatic as well. It's working!
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Gnarly
2433 posts
Feb 04, 2018
8:00 AM
It's funny, I sometimes try to pretend that diatonic and chromatic are the same instrument.

They are close, but different in a couple of important ways.

One of the big ones is that diatonic doesn't have all the chromatic notes as "givens"--that is the topic of this thread. That winds up being a feature of the diatonic, that many of those notes are available with bends. Most folks think of the bluesy bend when they think of harmonica. But jazz thrives on chromaticity, and accuracy with bends gets jettisoned when a player goes for speed. (OK, YMMV)

Another huge one is valves--chromatic sounds less urgent because of all the stuff between you and the reed. Chromatics sound more polite (usually).

And a third difference between standard tuned diatonic (let's call it Richter) and chromatic (tuned to solo tuning) would be the relative absence of chords on the chrom.

Of course, you can tune your harmonicas to different arrangements of tones, that works great if you can manage not just the retuning but also the change. And jazz benefits from that--I would think that diminished tuned chromatic harmonica would be the best bet for jazz, and a couple of players have adopted that, but not many.
Bike&Harp
166 posts
Feb 04, 2018
8:40 AM
Yes i agree with the opinion. My two cents are that Jazz music is not suitably played on the diatonic harp. Overblows and overdraws also are usually painful on the ears and not many people can do them well enough to get by. Obviously Howard levy is somewhat the exception but IMO even he sounds painful and out of tune in places. Just because Jazz can be played on the diatonic doesn't mean it should be. After going through an extensive period of practicing the instrument chromatically through the cycle of fourths i've pretty much given up on the idea and decided to use the instrument for what it's best for. When you try to play in obscure positions on the diatonic in order to show how good or clever you are it usually ends up sounding horrendous. That's why we have positions on the diatonic that are favorites, because they're accessible and they sound good.

On a related note i've decided to pretty much give up playing OB's and OD's. To me they just don't sound good. No matter how well they're played they sound sour to me. That includes when they're played by the best so it's not just down to technique. I've heard Howard Levy, Jason, Adam and others and at times i wince at the timbre of OB's and OD's.
dougharps
1704 posts
Feb 04, 2018
9:02 AM
I think it depends on the type of jazz. There is some blues based jazz that is accessible on the diatonic without a lot of overbend technique, and diatonic can sound good. If you ever listen to trumpets and trombones playing jazz, you might notice that they can get pitchy, too. In the end it depends on the ability of the musician and the specific music. In a studio there are multiple takes. Live, performances vary.

With regard to overbends, the 6 OB is very handy in jazz/blues progressions as a passing tone and can sound good. However, I do agree that the timbre of overbends on prolonged notes can at times be disturbing and interfere with appreciation of the music.

For jazz that goes beyond regular jazz/blues (and jazz/blues is pretty much the only kind of jazz I like), the chromatic is better suited, as the pitches are solid, but can be inflected, as opposed to wonky pitches often heard with overbending.

Bike&Harp notes that, "Just because Jazz can be played on the diatonic doesn't mean it should be." I recently was in a discussion with a jazz sax player who also is a multi-instrumentalist and music professor. I mentioned jazz harmonica and he said he liked Toots, but that there are not many at that level. In responding that there were other good players, I mentioned in passing that chromatic harmonica was also used in classical music and that at least one chromatic player had a career touring internationally playing concertos with symphony orchestras. The professor replied, "Just because it (chromatic harmonica) CAN play classical music doesn't mean that it should."
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 04, 2018 10:07 AM
slaphappy
344 posts
Feb 04, 2018
9:27 AM
I agree with this too, however I do find myself moved by what Howard and Konstantine and some of the other top overbenders in the world can do on the diatonic.


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FastFourier
28 posts
Feb 04, 2018
10:29 AM
Thanks for sharing your views - I agree with all of you. Again, I'm a big fan of Howard Levy, but even his music occasionally sounds strained - for example, in this jazz number:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z604G6j585w

I like his jazzy blues - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hesc-GGJag - a lot more.

Is there a forum for jazz chromatic harp players?
Bike&Harp
167 posts
Feb 04, 2018
10:40 AM
The way i am feeling about it now is why make life more difficult and complicated than it needs to be? I mean trying to make a diatonic harmonica into an instrument for playing jazz music is like trying to play fingerstyle classical guitar on an electric guitar! I mean you might be able to try it or maybe play a few pieces but it's never gonna sound right whereas pick up a proper classical and there you have the sound. I believe you can play some basic jazz/blues on the diatonic but when you get into intricate stuff that's played fast there's no chance, no chance. It's the same as playing a blues scale in an obscure position just to prove you can. I've been doing that for months and months now until the realisation dawns on you why not just use a more suitable key harp and play it in a position that's more conducive to musical play and expression?

This makes me think back to Ronnie Shellist's video where he talks about OB's OD's. He says tape yourself and honestly judge does that sound musical to you? In 99% of cases i'd say it isn't and it really is detracting from the music people play and it sounds awful. Only mentioning the OB thing because to play jazz on diatonic you need to use OB's and OD's.
20REEDS
45 posts
Feb 04, 2018
10:47 AM
There are also jazz tunes written for saxophone that sound awkward on trumpet... every intruments have strengths and weakness.

I think the issue regarding bending / overbending richter harps is like trumpet, you really have to practice every day or you can lose your chops.
How many overblow players consistently practice long tones? I bet just a small minority. That alone would make tone and intonation more achievable.

I will say though, one form of music that I can’t listen to on richter harp is tango. Especially if you are trying to emulate a jaunty bandoneon. Woof!
FastFourier
29 posts
Feb 04, 2018
8:42 PM
@20REEDS Yes, every instrument has its strengths and weaknesses. You can't play the same kind of jazz on acoustic guitar as you can on electric guitar, and vice versa.The intent of my post was pro chromatic harp jazz rather than anti diatonic jazz.
MindTheGap
2485 posts
Feb 05, 2018
12:15 AM
I'm glad you said it. I think it's because people have been pushing the envelope of diatonic technique via overbends, and there's a tendency to think that all new techniques are progress. It takes a bit of time and distance to sift out what is good musically.

One problem with overbends is, yes, intonation. That can be managed with technique. But the odd timbre is still there and currently it seems to be unavoidable. Particular timbres can be the reason an instrument is attractive - and the conventional bends on a diatonic fit that bill.

I guess the world decides what a 'good sound' is, it appears that everyone decided that the odd new sound of amped harp was great and bought lots of copies of Juke etc.

Sorry to say this, but genuinely lots of people don't like the basic sound of any kind of acoustic harmonica, diatonic or chromatic.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 05, 2018 12:23 AM
The Iceman
3472 posts
Feb 05, 2018
3:52 AM
I like the challenge involved....also, OB/OD can be worked on until they are just about seamless.... with a bit of forethought and musical knowledge, one can pick and choose where to place OB/OD notes to minimized or "mask" the different shading.

This takes some serious intention, but is a fun challenge for those that are up to it.
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The Iceman
boris_plotnikov
1157 posts
Feb 05, 2018
3:59 AM
FastFourier
You are trying to compare rather good but still hobby diatonic player with world class chromatic player.
I'd recommend diatonic player to choose another position. Take 5 is much easier in 4th position with some passing overblows.
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MindTheGap
2488 posts
Feb 05, 2018
4:18 AM
Iceman - I agree with the challenge motive. It's also a good thing that people are pushing the envelope. But some critical awareness of what sounds good and doesn't is useful too. If not, the passage of time will do this filtering for us.

Trouble with harp is that the sound is a bit of a hard sell in the first place. So new sounds have to be really different, and good, to be acceptable.

Can people really smooth out the timbre differences? What I hear is people who are really good at it (Boris is squarely in that club and you may be too) doing a great job of using these notes despite the difficulties. Also players like Adam work with them as passing notes, and that's pretty good. But is there an equivalent to hanging on to an OB like people do the 4' or 2'' because it's a simply a compelling sound? I've not heard it yet.

Another consideration is that if making it sound good is only possible if you are at virtuoso level, most of us aren't going to make it. I don't mean you, I mean me and all the other blues-harp hobbyists.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 05, 2018 4:47 AM
nacoran
9733 posts
Feb 05, 2018
5:53 AM
Why not try something in between diatonic and chromatic like the Turboslide. As I understand it the next model will have magnets for both plates. Richter layout with a ton of extra notes that don't sound bent, and then bends on top of it.

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Nate
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dougharps
1709 posts
Feb 05, 2018
7:20 AM
P.T. Gazell should be mentioned as someone who uses valved diatonics instead of OBs to play jazz.


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Doug S.
The Iceman
3473 posts
Feb 05, 2018
7:21 AM
MindTheGap:

Yes, one can sustain the OB/OD like the 4' or 2" - not because they are a compelling sound, but rather because this might be an excellent note choice.

I don't know about the 4' or 2" being a more compelling sound - more of compelling note choice at that moment in time.

Just like we don't enjoy the sound of "Gus" playing, which gives all diatonic harmonica players a bad reputation, don't discount the OB/OD because, at least at this point in time of the evolution, most using them have not refined or moved them towards seamlessness.
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The Iceman
Sarge
668 posts
Feb 05, 2018
8:03 AM
PT is an amazing player and should be included in any discussion of jazz harmonica players.
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MindTheGap
2491 posts
Feb 05, 2018
8:40 AM
Iceman, good point. I'll keep listening. As a learner there is a basic requirement to be inspired by artists you hear. Even if it's a mountain to climb, at least you know you like what your aiming for.

For instance, I like swing-jazz on the chromatic - such as performed by Max Geldray I've mentioned before. It sounds right. It would be a big task to learn that style - probably impossible for me - but worth a go. I just don't hear the same target points from the OB/OD harp players.

On the other hand that PT Gazell track, that sounds 'right' too. Maybe it'll be revealed he's using lots of OB/OD too in which case I'll take it all back :)

But hey, he's brilliant. Now listen to the phrases around 1m 47s. I've not tried it but that's probably 3D bends I expect. Oh dear. So if that's what PTG sounds like, imagine what I'd sound like trying to do that. C'mon be honest if your were teaching me trombone and I played that you'd suggest I go and work on my intonation before I had a crack at taking my grade 3 exam :)

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 05, 2018 8:43 AM
dougharps
1712 posts
Feb 05, 2018
12:39 PM
PT uses valved bends for the black key notes, not OB or OD.
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Doug S.
Bike&Harp
168 posts
Feb 05, 2018
12:54 PM
Why make life hard for yourself just to say "i can"? Not only does it take massive hours of practice it doesn't sound as good anyway so what's the point? There are a lot of people kidding themselves on about their OB/OD playing. Truth is i reckon 99% of people trying to do this style; well it's like nails being dragged down a chalkboard. Most of them are out of tune, the intonation is dreadful and the note timbre is horrible too. There is a video of Adam playing OB's and the sound he's getting is terrible, a really bad racket. I mean in our self indulgent moments it may be ok to kid ourselves on that that sounds like music. To others it sounds like there's something broken on your harp! If you want to play jazz or more chromatic music either get a chrome or pick a different instrument. Diatonic harp does not do jazz well. Just my op.
The Iceman
3475 posts
Feb 05, 2018
1:17 PM
Bike&Harp sez: "Truth is i reckon 99% of people trying to do this style; well it's like nails being dragged down a chalkboard."

ah, but what fun to be in the 1%!
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The Iceman
zx679
36 posts
Feb 05, 2018
5:07 PM
I think this discussion would benefit from paying closer attention to what Boris said especially with regards to choosing the right position.


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something something harmonicas...
JSalow
32 posts
Feb 05, 2018
6:59 PM
Bike&Harp,

I challenge you to listen to Jason Roseblatt and try to tell me that "diatonic harp does not do jazz well"
CarlA
898 posts
Feb 05, 2018
9:00 PM
If the artists using OB/OD are selling-out shows, selling records and making a living doing their thing than I think they are doing 100% better than the armchair QB that like to frivolously waste time arguing about what "sounds" pleasant, meanwhile selling-out NO shows, NO records, and making NO money!!!

Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 05, 2018 9:01 PM
FastFourier
30 posts
Feb 05, 2018
9:23 PM
@narcoran Can you say a bit more about the Turboslide, versus a standard chromatic, or the Powerbender? Links to recordings of them?
MindTheGap
2492 posts
Feb 05, 2018
10:47 PM
CarlA - ouch! It's not a frivolous waste of time to think critically about what kind of music we like is it?

B&H puts it rather strongly, but there is a point that at the same time we can recognise people's skills doing a difficult thing (playing chromatically on a diatonic) while acknowledging that it doesn't always sound all that good. The best players seem to be able to choose the notes carefully to fit with the music. The worst examples are where people think that they now a have a fully chromatic instrument and use OB/OD notes as if playing a piano.

The most egregious example I remember was someone demonstrating playing scales in all 12 keys on one diatonic. Clearly huge skills and massive amounts of practice time involved but it sounded strange.

I went straight to listen to some Jason Rosenblatt, first thing up was Sweet Georgia Brown. So, first clearly he's a wonderful musician, secondly there's the slightly odd notes coming out - the ones you have to use to play the tune on a diatonic. Honestly, I play this to my non-musician wife and she'll say ooh a few wrong notes there. That's just how it is. If other people think it's fine, I've no problem with that either.

I know some people don't like when blues harp players play very flat. That's also a characteristic of the diatonic and I quite like it - in keeping.

I'd never be able to play anywhere near Jason's level, so if that's the end result, I don't want to pursue that. I'd never be able to play like Max Geldray either, but for me it'd be worth trying that style, to get perhaps a bit of it. The PT Gazell style also sounds attractive.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 06, 2018 8:04 AM
Gnarly
2434 posts
Feb 05, 2018
10:59 PM
I can speak about the TurboSlide, I have had one for some time.
Magnets lower the pitch of a reed by pushing a button. as opposed to the normal button action on a chromatic, which raises the pitch.
The chromatic shifts to the next chromatic note all at once (they are different reeds!), whereas the TurboSlide causes the notes to go down gradually, with a glissando. It works for chords tho--I have mine tuned to Major Cross, the Melody Maker-like tuning developed by Tony Eyers, who posts here.

Last Edited by Gnarly on Feb 05, 2018 11:01 PM
MindTheGap
2493 posts
Feb 07, 2018
12:27 AM
More PT Gazell, this IS music to my ears. His bit start around 2m30s.

For me, the strength of the diatonic here is the extra expressiveness available over the chromatic. The different note timbres of the harp sound charmingly odd rather than 'wrong'.

On reflection I think I'm disagreeing with you a bit Iceman. I don't think 'smoothing out the overbends' is the musical answer. For me the joy of the harp sound is the mix of timbres available. And I suppose I need to nail my colours to the mast and say that the overbends don't sound very good. I may be wrong, it may be purely subjective. But I've a hunch that they are objectively not very good.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2018 12:38 AM
JSalow
33 posts
Feb 07, 2018
10:57 AM
So some examples given of OB notes being "out of tune" that I've seen are actually pretty well in tune. I think sometimes an OB note having a different "timbre" is interpreted as being out of tune.

It's a perfectly valid argument to make if you don't like the timbre change, but I think that even in jazz sometimes that can actually work really well.

Edit: And of course MindTheGap made my case for me before I even posted. I completely agree.

Last Edited by JSalow on Feb 07, 2018 10:59 AM
Diggsblues
2152 posts
Feb 07, 2018
11:46 AM
So here are two of the same tune one Diatonic and one Chromatic. I tried to be more melodic and just it flow not playing a lot of licks trying to be more of cool school.
purr
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MindTheGap
2496 posts
Feb 07, 2018
12:03 PM
Diggs - Chromatic for me on that one! This is a great example, because I know already of your jazz skills - and even with your superior technique and note choices, the diatonic sounds just on the wrong side of strange for me when the OBs start. Great job though.

It is a shame, because in general I think the harp is more expressive than the chromatic. That's why the half-valve option seems to be a happy medium.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2018 12:04 PM
zx679
37 posts
Feb 10, 2018
7:53 AM






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something something harmonicas...

Last Edited by zx679 on Feb 10, 2018 2:06 PM
MindTheGap
2505 posts
Feb 10, 2018
8:25 AM
Weird notes. I'm listening, waiting for them to appear, and they do. These people are masters. That is The Sound of the diatonic harmonica played chromatically with overbends. There's no getting round it. Either you like it or you don't.

I could be subjective and say I don't like it, that's just me. But I do suspect it's not a good sound, objectively.

BTW those vids are posted REALLY BIG, would you mind sizing them down a bit? It's a practical problem viewing the thread now. The width and height are in the code you copied from YT, try 400.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 10, 2018 8:32 AM
zx679
38 posts
Feb 10, 2018
2:07 PM
Thanks for the video tip!

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something something harmonicas...
eebadeeb
113 posts
Feb 10, 2018
2:12 PM
Any known jazz being done on x-reed/SUB 30 diatonics. Still need bends but not OB's.
20REEDS
46 posts
Feb 10, 2018
7:43 PM
I still think it is more on the subjective side- I can listen to a GOOD overblow player for a long time. While the mechanical nature of chromatic really bores me. Toots, Antonio Serrano and Franco Luciani are the only players I enjoy.

To be honest on diatonic, I don’t really hear the overbends as that different. The notes that I see as being the hardest to sound good / achieve are crisp, intune 2 draw bend notes. The overtones disappear the lower the bend. It takes a lot of practice and reed tweaking to get those overtones to reappear .
MindTheGap
2508 posts
Feb 10, 2018
11:15 PM
I can see that you can like them, and very much get the more expressive diatonic vs the 'mechanical' (clean, cold?) nature of the chromatic.

Also, I agree that in terms of pure intonation, some of the conventional draw bends are harder to control - I'm thinking that the 3 bends are worse than 2. Going by listening to top-notch players and my own experience.

But, being objective, I find it hard to accept that you don't see the OBs as sounding very different. I can totally accept that they sound different but you like them. Even just listening to the three example above.

Slightly left field but maybe....

I can't rule out that we are hearing different things - not just the equipment we are listening on but also the state of our hearing. I had a surprise the other the day when a guitarist I know couldn't hear some noise his rig was making (some kind of hiss) even though I never thought of him as hearing impaired. Just the reduction in frequency response with age or wear and tear I guess. He's not a loud musician but his career was in industry.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 10, 2018 11:17 PM
johnleewfan
5 posts
Feb 10, 2018
11:58 PM
chromatic notes on a diatonic sound wrong = matter of taste

chromatic harps sound cold & mechanical = matter of taste
MindTheGap
2511 posts
Feb 11, 2018
1:41 AM
I disagree a bit, or it's a bit more subtle than that. There's usually a common understanding of the timbre of an instrument. Oboe = melancholic, trumpet = strident. Yes, a trumpet doesn't have to sound strident, but it's good at that and orchestrations commonly take advantage of these properties. Ukuleles and children's xylophones sound friendly, which is why they are often used in adverts for banks, in the UK at least.

I don't thinks it's unreasonable to agree that the sound of diatonic is more expressive than a chromatic which is a bit cooler. Then there's whether you like it or not. That's the thing that is a matter of taste.

What does a conventional bend on a diatonic represent to people? Why, it's the classic 'blues harp' sound. What does the sound of an OB represent? I don't know. To a crowd of harp players it probably means 'serious harp skills', kudos and respect. To my wife it means wrong notes.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2018 1:44 AM
SweetBlood
43 posts
Feb 11, 2018
6:11 AM
I may be in the minority, but I enjoy some of the examples posted here of people using the diatonic. I think there is something, for lack of a better word, a little bit strained in those overblow notes that really gets me. It's in a way the same reason the bends on a diatonic sound 'good'. I also enjoy the smooth sound of the chromatic. It just sounds professional and polished. I can appreciate both, but think I prefer the diatonic.
johnleewfan
6 posts
Feb 11, 2018
11:28 AM
Not sure I would agree that a chrom is inherently less expressive than a diatonic. We could go on trading links forever, but I'm just going to put up this one, not to argue that a chrom is better, but simply that it is perfectly capable of warm, expressive playing.



Last Edited by johnleewfan on Feb 11, 2018 11:32 AM
nacoran
9746 posts
Feb 11, 2018
12:44 PM
FastFourier, here is a demo of Brendan Power playing one. The part about the Turboslide starts at about 1:45.



And I was talking to Jim in a FB thread and there are plans for a version with a second set of slides.

I mostly use mine for a whammy bar to bend chords, but that is because when it comes to chromatic playing I'm a hack. I just don't have the attention span to sit down and learn where all the notes I need are on it. I have the same problem with a regular chromatic though, so it's not the fault of the Turboslide.


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Nate
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Bike&Harp
179 posts
Feb 11, 2018
1:53 PM
CarlA: That's some pile of crap you posted there!! Guys that sell out shows or sell records are not selling them because they play OB's or OD's. What about guys that don't play OB's and sell tons of records and have incredible history's with the instrument. Plus this is a forum for us to give our opinion and we're all entitled to that, even you.
scojo
591 posts
Feb 11, 2018
2:05 PM
Here's my version of Django Reinhardt's "Nuages" from a show at Snug Harbor in New Orleans in 2014. I'm using a Seydel 1847 Silver in 2nd position. OBs everywhere. Chalmers Davis is on piano.


CarlA
908 posts
Feb 11, 2018
2:24 PM
@Bikeandharp

Lmfao. What a hypocritical comment you made. Attacking me for voicing an opinion on a forum based-off of opinions.

Read my commment first, digest it, use what little of a brain it sounds like you have, and see that the point of my comment is that it doesn't matter what your or my opinion is, artists that are either using or not using OB/OD are doing something with their music and selling records, etc unlike the rest of the 99.9% of forum members here that like to consistently argue about what they think "sounds good" or not.

FFS, a little basic reading comprehension from some people on this forum would really help to prevent locked threads and arguments.

Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 11, 2018 2:27 PM
MindTheGap
2515 posts
Feb 11, 2018
3:12 PM
Soco I have to concede that is pretty convincing stuff, especially during the first section.

I also have to ask you to listen to the ending 3m50s and say what you think of that bit. Some weird things in there. I offer the note at 3m56s. For me, that's the 'OB sound' and I now I understand that people do genuinely like it (as Sweetblood says above). I can't imagine liking it myself, but tastes change so I need to do more listening. Could be I just don't get it, yet. I read that people didn't like distorted electric guitar when they first heard it - now we can't imagine a musical world without it.

johnleewfan - Yes that's lovely, and emotional, but I stick to my view that the chrome has a cooler more laid back sound and the diatonic allows for more emotion. As the cornet is more mellow than the trumpet, just a feature of the instrument I think, not a criticism. One major difference is the depth of wah/hand effects available - the diatonic allows for more shaping of the timbre.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2018 3:25 PM
SuperBee
5266 posts
Feb 11, 2018
4:21 PM
I guess a discussion about steroids would still be OT at this point.
CarlA
909 posts
Feb 11, 2018
4:32 PM
@superbee

All natural baby;)
Just don't tolerate any bullshit....from anyone. Especially unprovoked.

I like you superbee, but passive aggressive doesn't work well on you ;)
Bike&Harp
180 posts
Feb 11, 2018
4:38 PM
CarlA: Shut your ignorant retarded brain. You are a moron of the ocean going class. This forum is for us to give our opinions on anything harmonica related now just sod off already with your crap.


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