Technically, based off the neuro-composition of the CNS and the medulla oblongata, it is theoretically impossible for one to "shut up your ignorant and retarded" brain unless an electroencephalogram (EEG) is performed to see if electrical brain activity has ceased. This would of course require a neurological intervention and at the current rate of insurance and deductible being as high as they are, I think this would become a rather moot point. Baring no other injuries to the cortex or other possible issue such as a severe subdural hematoma, etc you can see why your statement is rather the ignorant and foolish one.
Thanks for playing papa bear :)
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 11, 2018 4:57 PM
Bike&Harp, please direct yourself to the forum creed.
See if you think this might possibly violate it... "CarlA: Shut your ignorant retarded brain. You are a moron of the ocean going class. This forum is for us to give our opinions on anything harmonica related now just sod off already with your crap."
I'm giving you a strike for 'retarded' and another for not playing nice with others. I read the whole exchange. CarlA, I'm not going to issue you a warning, just ask that you play nice. I don't know what you might have edited before I get here, but only the last post crosses the line from what is left. (The first comment that B&H took issue with, for what it's worth, I thought was spot on.)
Bike&Harp, you only get three strikes. You've got two now in one thread. May I suggest you move on to another thread, take a deep breath and calm down a bit. If you feel someone is violating the forum creed in some fashion in the future contact an admin. Screenshot the offending content (people can and do edit their posts when they have time to reflect.) Don't try to take matters into your own hands. It's a quick way to find yourself banned from the forum. And, before you yell at me about it and get all huffy, reread the forum creed again... don't talk to me about what CarlA did. Right now I'm just worried about how you responded.
Okay, back to overblows and jazz. Admin powers off. Personally I'm terrible at both jazz and overblows.
This is a very interesting and useful thread with lots of great examples. I use this kind of discussion to help me form my own thoughts about how to approach harmonica, both diatonic and chromatic, and how to focus my musical efforts.
Now, I know the topic concerns jazz, but as I’ve been trying to focus more on developing my chromatic playing recently, I attempted using the chrome to play with a rock oriented guitarist, and found it was nowhere near as convincing as playing the diatonic. Just couldn’t get the feel.
However, I also play with an electric cellist, and the chrome works beautifully with his style, so long as I am comfortable with the key, progression, etc.
I love the timbral oddities of the diatonic overbends, but don’t incorporate them much in my playing, as I am not well practiced, and seem to get by with standard bending and using chromatic for the styles of music I’m playing.
It's hard to hit a chromatic harp hard--it doesn't give in like a diatonic. But it can be done--Bill Barrett does this on a CX-12. He's fully valved, too . . . I think it would be easier to do this on a half valved diminished tuned instrument.
nacoran: don't get on your high horse with me! The only problem was i responded to the trolls bait. They demeaned a whole bunch of us hobbyist players and by the sounds of it this arsehole has done it before. So just get stuffed with your warnings they're directed in the wrong place.
B&h: Ah yeah man I agree with you to a point, but unless there’s a reversal of the previous decision I expect that calling Carl an arsehole is enough to get you out. Nate may have missed the bit where your intelligence was impugned in a direct contravention of the creed, and you should get points for amusing invention with ‘moron of the ocean going class’ but I’ll take this opportunity to say I’m a bit sorry you’re leaving us, I’ve enjoyed our discussions over the last year or so. Get in touch if you like.
I'll be in touch Bee. Seems there's rules for some and not for others on here which i didn't think was the case. A troll starts winding us up and then if you fall for it you're the bad guy. Oh well...
I think it's essential to respect nacoran's decision. But I'd counsel not banning B&H, certainly not without looking carefully at the interaction. B&H is a vibrant contributor to the beginner's forum.
To be fair, I think CarlA's first comment was aimed at me (or me too) since I'm a hobbyist discussing what I like/dislike rather than selling albums. But I don't care. Actually I don't know what an "armchair QB" is, but I suspect it's not a good thing.
I'd also make a plea not to lock this thread, which is interesting and useful. I've learned a lot.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 12, 2018 2:46 PM
The notion that because someone is just a 'hobbyist' they therefore can not form an opinion about someone who is more successful, is just flat out BS, and is actually self refuting.
Someone selling out an arena is dependent on one thing...a lot of people who are not selling out arenas, forming the opinion that a performer is worth spending thier time and money on. Artists who make a living from thier art could never do so if everyone not on thier level was forbidden from forming an opinion.
Last Edited by SweetBlood on Feb 12, 2018 3:26 PM
To clear a few things up her before i get banned. I lost the rag because i perceived CarlA's comments to be trying to get a rise out of ordinary members of the forum by making out that because we're not successful full time harp players that we are of a lesser value. I also have seen these types of actions being done on forums all over the net. Make a barbed comment to try to slight someone or a group of people and then wait for someone to take the bait. To be fair i've never come across it on this forum but i usually stick to the beginners forum where people don't seem to make these nasty comments. Thanks to Bee and MTG who i've always liked on here for their knowledge and wit.
I don't think that is only on line that these sort of things happen..i've seen/heard it at BBQs,pubs/dinner parties/ where ever. Personally in those situations i've been guilty of being a'troll' in that i get bored with conversation about the Cricket/rugby so will be a little provocative and (gasp) bring up politics/religion or somesuch. Actually i once got thumped by a devout Christian (bless him). Compared to those subjects Harmonica is a cat walk. I like B/H and CarlA, would hate to see either of them go.
@MindtheGap: Thanks much for listening and for your comments. Regarding this comment: "I offer the note at 3m56s. For me, that's the 'OB sound' and I now I understand that people do genuinely like it (as Sweetblood says above). I can't imagine liking it myself, but tastes change so I need to do more listening."
Yes, that's an 7OD that I didn't hit as smoothly as I would like. That recording was 3 1/2 years ago on a stock (slightly gapped) harmonica; I suspect I would hit it more cleanly now. At any rate, that's one out of a lot of notes. I suspect that there are a ton of OBs in that performance that either didn't bother you or -- more likely -- you didn't even notice. I don't mean that as any kind of insult; the ideal is that you DON'T notice an overblow or any other kind of technique as "standing out."
Personal taste is obviously just that and no one's taste is "wrong." What I object to are generalizations about the overblow technique that don't seem to apply to other techniques like bending. I don't ever hear anyone complaining about the regular blues bend as being "shrill" or "unmusical" because (a) we're used to it and (b) we expect a certain amount of sloppiness because it sounds "bluesy," which in the hands of some players means "sloppy." Anyone recall the Ode to Joy contest? That little exercise sparked arguments about whether a note bend could sound exactly like an unbent note in the context of a quickly played phrase... I don't remember anyone using that example to argue that nobody should bend.
I can bend OBs and ODs in a way that sounds bluesy, and I'm by no means the only one (including players on this forum) that can do this. I also can play a fully chromatic scale in a manner that you would be hard pressed to argue sounds anything but smooth... and again, so can others on this forum.
@MindtheGap, this is not directed at you (your comments were actually pretty thoughtful)... but I take the Chris Michalek position that most who criticize the OB technique in a blanket way (a) can't really do it and (b) don't really understand it. Again, personal taste is subjective by definition, but unless that comes from a real understanding of the technique and how it sounds *when done correctly*, the criticism has less value.
It really seems to me that the argument about the utility and musicality of overblows *as a general proposition* is LONG over, and those holding it onto it here are missing the point. I'd rather hear arguments (if at all) about whether a specific player uses overblows in a musical way in a specific instance, both in terms of note choices and actual execution of the technique itself. We consider bending, hand techniques etc. in the same manner.
Finally, personally and in all honesty... I think the overblow technique, done well, actually sounds *more* musical and pure than the standard bend when done well. If you know how to bend an overblow, it sounds at least as bluesy, and I think in many cases it's actually easier to control. There's a lot of mythology around overblowing that, in my opinion, is an artifact of the way harmonica has been associated so closely not only with blues, but with vintage harmonica blues and the usual suspects like Little Walter and the Sonny Boys (all of whom I love, by the way). It is so weird to me that so many harmonica players willingly limit their conception of what an instrument can--and, by extension of that argument, should--do.
Then again, I generally can't listen to straight blues all day long. I want my music to have blues in it most of the time, but beyond that... surprise me.
Last Edited by scojo on Feb 13, 2018 12:05 PM
Also, I wish it were possible to "like" comments on this board. Iceman and Boris in particular say some things here with which I very much agree.
Last Edited by scojo on Feb 13, 2018 11:42 AM
There are some fantastic overblowers out there, in the thread too. I guess I was saying I knew what was working for me and what wasn't going to work for me in terms of playing in different keys on the one diatonic after giving it considerable effort. I thought my effort would be better spent on the chrom, for jazz anyway. I guess everyone finds what works for them. Then what listeners hear is another thing!
@blingtv: now that's a totally different take, and totally valid. Everyone's mileage may vary. For what it's worth, I love to hear a great chromatic player and am heavily influenced by the chrom in terms of phrasing.
More prophetic words may have never been spoken. Goodnight Gracie.
And for the record people, 'retard/retarded' would be one of those words that fall into the slur category in my book. I probably should have hit the buzzer there, but I hoped B&K was just having a bad day and would sleep it off. Sorry for the interruption to this otherwise informative thread.
Scojo - I hope you don't think I was trying to use one note to undermine a whole piece, or even the whole OB technique! I don't think you did take it that way, but just to be clear.
I really don't agree with the idea that because a person can't do a thing, they aren't qualified to comment. My stock quote covering this is, "You don't have to be a master carpenter to complain that the table wobbles." (Dr. Johnson)
As it happens, I can do a bit of OB and I know where the missing notes are, so I can often hear them regardless of timbre. But I don't need to play that card to hold an opinion. I don't play the oboe, but I know I don't want that sound in my band (cue the blues-oboe videos!). I don't play the trumpet either (in spite of trying very hard ha ha) but I know that sound would be good.
That said, I agree what's interesting here is how they are used. Maybe the difficulty is that even entry-level blues harp can sound quite good, but the OB technique requires a considerable step up in skill. That said, Howard Levy is a master of the technique, but it's too much OB for me.
Someone should post something from Todd Parrott. I'm impressed by the way he fits harp key/position to a song to bring out the best of it. Maybe this is the nub of it - treating the diatonic-with-OB as a simple chromatic instrument isn't enough, it's needs a more sophisticated fitting to the particular song. I know you disagree with that, but I'm trying hard to find some common ground. Just as it's unhelpful to say that all OB are wrong, it's unhelpful to say that they are all good :)
Most instruments have practical strengths and weaknesses, and throughout history composers have written taking those into account.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 13, 2018 2:54 PM
@MindTheGap: Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not saying one CAN'T have an opinion if one can't do the technique. I'm saying that I'm going to be less interested in or convinced by an opinion coming from someone who is fairly ignorant about a technique or instrument, both in terms of being able to do it or understand how or why it's used.
To use your oboe example... if someone had never or rarely heard an oboe played, why should their opinion about oboes be given much weight? To use an example with which I am more familiar... if someone says the banjo can't be used to play jazz, I'd tell them about Bela Fleck. They might not like his playing, but at that point their opinion will probably be based on more information, and therefore deserves more weight.
Anyway, I really wasn't directing the bulk of my comments to you, but rather other commenters who seem to take a very narrow view based on extremely limited information. Having said that, nobody has to like anything. Liking something is more or less involuntary. Blanket statements bother me more.
Last Edited by scojo on Feb 13, 2018 2:59 PM
scojo, yes I do see what you mean. Naturally it's frustrating when someone with little experience wades in with strong opinions. Even the master carpenter would be allowed to raise her eyes to heaven and tut.
Funnily enough, someone just mentioned Bela Fleck to me the other day. Amazing stuff. And yes, it widened my view of what the banjo can do.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 13, 2018 3:07 PM
Sounds a little more like something you'd hear on a noir movie soundtrack than blues to me, but I do like it. I think I could use something like this in a song pretty nicely.
@nacoran: Thanks for that. I love it! I don't know that I'd call it blues, but it's cool.
@MindTheGap: you said "Maybe this is the nub of it - treating the diatonic-with-OB as a simple chromatic instrument isn't enough, it's needs a more sophisticated fitting to the particular song. I know you disagree with that, but I'm trying hard to find some common ground. Just as it's unhelpful to say that all OB are wrong, it's unhelpful to say that they are all good :)"
I don't disagree at all! I actually totally and unreservedly agree with that. You have to fit the playing to the song, of course, and all OBs are NOT good in every situation. That's where the musicality comes in. That's also why choosing the right position(s) for a particular song (or part of a song) is so important. It's a huge part of what I do. Just doing chromatic runs for their own sake, as with any technique, is missing the point.
But I would argue that this is no different than any other instrument, and in particular it's no different from the chromatic harmonica. Both have their pros and cons when it comes to playing jazz. A "con" for the chromatic is that it simply doesn't sound as inherently bluesy "out of the gate" as the diatonic, and blues is an integral part of the majority of jazz. An advanced player can make it sound bluesy, but against obstacles, just as an advanced diatonic player has to conquer obstacles to make the diatonic work as a jazz instrument.
The prime directive is to BE MUSICAL. I absolutely believe that OBs can be a huge part of that... they are for me, or at least for what I am trying to do. But you don't have to use them, or any other advanced technique, to make good music on the harmonica.
Soco - Yes I see what you mean, and I can agree with that. The idea of fitting the harp/key/position/technique to the song seems to be a fundamental skill with playing the diatonic. And it seems that should continue even with more notes available via OB.
I think we are still left with the personal taste - and that is always interesting to discuss.
nacoran - Thank you! I knew you'd turn something up. I just need to find a way to fit that solo into 'Dust my Broom' and we're good..."Ok Eric, just the 144 bars of eerie oboe - go, baby!" :)
These are great examples. Again it's the chromatic for me for this type of song.
Specifically, the diatonic sounds very convincing during the main theme, but as the solo becomes more elaborate, it starts to sound wobbly, despite as you say his fabulous technique. I do believe it's the harp, not him. With the chromatic, it's rock solid all the way through.
This is what I hear, and I understand that other people can hear it differently.
Very nice btw.
A further observation is that the diatonic player doesn't use much in the way of hand effects. This is a musical choice of course, but it's missing out on one of the great expressive strengths of the diatonic. I guess a conventional way to elaborate in jazz is more notes - whereas in blues it's deeper expression. Deep vibrato on long tones, a two-hole shake that lasts 8-bars, that kind of thing.
Also I should note that his 3D bends are among the best I've heard. Often a weak spot in non-blues, melodic playing. Often more grating IMO than a bad OB. Fabulous of course in blues, where ambiguous pitches can be a plus.
Taking that a bit further, I think if we are discussing chromatic playing on diatonic, we should consider the whole technique which is the mix of OB and conventional bends. I think that takes the argument away from the simplistic 'overbends are bad/overbends are good' that scojo refers to.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2018 2:33 AM
Yes, that's very good indeed. OK I can hear the OBs in that - or so I believe. If you reveal there are none then the joke's on me :) But to my ears it all sounds expressive and their oddness is an asset. E.g. the opening phrase staring 5s. Plus you're using hand effects. Then the fills at the top end.
It's got the right amount of strange harp sound. And the technique sounds joined up, if that makes sense.
This is a great example, thank you.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2018 10:42 AM
@MindTheGap: Thanks much! Yes, there are definitely OBs galore, all over the place... don't think there are any ODs on this one but I'd have to check. If you listen closely, a LOT of the OBs are bent... this fits in with your comment above--which I very much agree with--that overbends should not be judged in isolation, but should also be considered as part of a continuum with conventional bends. The idea is to take an instrument that is not naturally legato and make it as legato as possible. (I'd also add, as I said before, that the judicious use of positions is also part of the continuum when it comes to developing a style that works with jazz, pop, R&B, funk, rock etc.)
I'm down with the "right amount of strange harp sound" kudo. I've been called the "Phil Lesh of the harmonica," which I took as a compliment because Lesh created his own very personal style on the bass, and while it's not for everyone, it's very effective for what he is trying to do. Jerry Joseph also once said about me, "I hate harmonica players... but there's this one player in Jackson, Mississippi named Scott Albert Johnson..." :)
Last Edited by scojo on Feb 15, 2018 11:45 AM
Also, I'd say that the harmonica players that I most enjoy also have their own idiosyncratic style as well, whether diatonic or chromatic. The ones that immediately come to mind are HowardLevy, Charlie Musselwhite, PT Gazell, Paul Messinger, Rosco Selley, Richard Hunter, Jason Ricci, and of course our own Adam Gussow... there are plenty of others, some who OB and some who don't much or at all. It's that personal stamp that matters most.
Last Edited by scojo on Feb 15, 2018 1:58 PM
Yes, I've listened to this a few times now, and I think it's the most compelling diatonic example here, followed by PT Gazell.
I get what you say about bending OBs. A good example is the last note of the fill around 1m40s. The combination of dynamics and pitch tailing off the note give it a wistful quality. This is the musicality I'm on about. It reminds me of something I particularly like in Ronne Shellist's playing (conventional bends).
Interesting comment about 'I hate harmonica players'. Unfortunately many people dislike the sound of the harmonica, and maybe the players too. I've not heard anyone say they hate the oboe, well, unless they've tried to play the thing. So you've got to be extra good to be good.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 16, 2018 7:00 AM
PT Gazell is one of my favorites, and he is also one of my favorite humans in the harmonica world. Just a legit, straight-up guy. He accomplishes chromaticity on the diatonic using a totally different technique. There are multiple ways to flay a feline.*
I think it's the democratic nature of the harmonica that makes so many people hate its sound. It's not hard to make sounds with it that are quasi-musical right out of the box, and too many players just stop there and call themselves harmonica players. Some of them are famous. I tell my students that this is fine... I like the fact that such a "people's instrument" exists... but that it is also possible to make real, beautiful music on it just like any other instrument. I then expose them to at least 15 different players before their second lesson, all with different styles and all excellent, so that they can raise their expectations.
*(No cats were harmed in the drafting of this comment.)
SuperBee is a cool guy period. Now, back to topic. I was of the same mind as some of the posters. In fact I'd go so far as to say I like my Jazz on T-Sax or A-Sax. Well I changed my mind after hearing Boris Plotnikov. Though Howard Levy is the guy who started it all I prefer Boris. Buuuut I just discovered Diego Sales out of Brazil. All diatonic and often just a C harp. He plays C. Mingus and John Coltrane w/ aplomb!! ---------- Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time. Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark .
Going back to the premise of the original post, and after several listens to the examples above, I have to say that a chromatic works better for playing bossa nova. The cooler tonality of the chrom just seems to fit better with the overall cool tone of the form. And, since bossa nova tunes are often pretty chromatic in their note selection, relying on bends & overblows tends to emphasize the sound of the reed moving as it is bent to hit those chromatic notes - a sound which is great on blues and some types of jazz but is distracting, to my ear, on bossa tunes. On the chrom, those notes are built in, no extraneous sounds needed.
Hi scojo, I think Diggsblues' "Black Orpheus" examples show the differences very nicely.
Come to think, it may not even be the genre, but - here's something I don't think it has been mentioned before in this thread - the arrangement. I think a diatonic, would sound totally out of place in this arrangement -
