I think this is a cool interview from David Barrett that I came across. There is a ton of focus today on selecting equipment. It is fun to become a "gearhead" and focus on our amps, mics and harps, but I think that we can all take a step back from over thinking our gear choices.
(I do understand that we have more options on gear today, as referenced by the video. If given the opportunity, the classic players may have focued on their gear too!!!)
Just my take on this.... I feel that LW didn't really care about amp/mic, using what he could afford, which was probably as cheap as it got...."that sound" that we all chase nowadays spending lotsa $ was based on inexpensive equipment that easily distorted!
Got no hard evidence on this, just my opinion.... ---------- The Iceman
In that era, there was no solid state anything. No pedals or other ways to massage your sound. Other hand, all the sound gear was tubes. Warmer sound combined with deeper chops. ----------
everyone has favorites, favorite hat, favorite girlfriend etc. anyone who has played thru a gibson ga 20 and not blurted out, holy smoke is being disingenuous.
i had a 1951 fender pro amp at one time. to say that someone in chicago would not have used one, i don't buy that argument.
muddy used a 1957 telecaster his whole life, and i'm pretty sure other guitars as well. i seemed to recall he had a pro amp at one time. if leo fender had muddy playing his gear, you can bet little walter may of had an endorsement of some kind as well.
james cotton played a bassman for sometime, "muddys"... could it be he heard little walter playing one at some point?
From what I remember from reading "Blues With A Feeling",LW was miffed when Leonard Chess made him play thru the vocal mic. He wanted to set himself apart from the other harp players of the time and playing thru an amp was one way to do it.I'm not sure he cared which amp he played thru.
To follow on with what Iceman and Jbone said, 'that sound', as well as coming from relatively inexpensive and Lo fi equipment was also partly because of the lower gain and lower voltage preamps used in guitar amps of that period. What do we do with amps these days? We often substitute a lower gain preamp valve/tube for the 12ax7. Not that I have any evidence, but I don't think those guys would have experimented with different valves.
That may be the case, and the reasons are as discussed.
I object when this story is used as a fable to admonish beginners and hobbyists who want to take an interest in their kit and sound. Building technique and kit go hand in hand, and experimenting keeps the interest up. It should be encouraged.
@Tuckster -- the real reason that it further states in the LW bio is that back then, in 99% of recording studios, musicians did NOT have both their own headphones nor did they have their own separate mix to listen to (with the advent of recording studios with machines with 16-48 tracks after the mid 60's, this became a necessity) and because of that, he couldn't hear anything at all so the amp was essentially a monitor for him or with recording studios since the mid to late 60's, your own personal headphones and seperate mix) so a large part of your statement simply doesn't ring true at all.
Having personally been around many old masters, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of them could give a crap about the gear so long as they got their sound across and the entire solid state argument is totally BS because solid state didn't appear on the instrument scene until around 1965-1968, plus there is NO SUCH THING as THE amp or mic LW ever played, and all that is just gear head myth, BS and outright lies and I stand by every word of this statement.
BTW, even if a black musician wanted the best equipment they could possibly afford, many music stores were also segregated and their choices were often quite limited regardless of their economic situation may have been. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Not that it matters a lot but Muddy played a gold top les paul in the early years and also a Martin 00-18E ( very cool guitar). The famous tele was originally white when he bought it and painted red later on He also played a Guild thunderbird when he had an endorsement deal with Guild ( Buddy Guy also had a Guild deal)
I doubt he had a Fender deal. Back in the day local music stores would lend instruments to get business or give a discount to get them out there
I think it is just as possible that he knew the sound system in every club and venue he played in. It should also be considered that he was in a time when musicians guarded their methods like a trademark. I have a hard time accepting someone who was that good was completely blasé about their amps. It seems more plausible that he was so effective at protecting his trademark sound that no one will ever find out exactly how he did it.
@Thieven' Heathen -- Two prime examples of the old masters who really didn't care much about the rig was Cotton and Big Walter and for the most part, Carey Bell. Until somewhere around the late 60's, the amp was also doubling as a PA so that's where your belief just doesn't really hold up particularly well and you're making assumptions based on players from the 70's, especially white players since that time. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I've seen cotton a few times..... he played thru an amp. he had two mic's one to sing thru, one for the harp.
someone posted a picture of a re-issue bassman he played thru when they went to see him.
i have a bassman... and a jt 30. i have that mic and amp because i went to see rod piazza and william clark. that is what they used. i wanted that sound. that is part and parcel to getting that sound. yes there is more to it than that, but it is a large part of the sound. so why did they use that set-up? because their hero's used that set-up.
paul butterfield had a bassman and a jt 30.... where did he get the idea to use that set-up?
Barbecue Bob is saying what I recollect hearing about in the late '60s and early '70s.
People reportedly often used tube guitar amps as PAs in the '40s and '50s unless the club provided the PA. A separate PA added expense for a band. Tube PAs that were essentially amps and not all that powerful by today's standards were available in the late '40s and '50s. I have a tube PA head (Stromberg-Carleson) with 3 XLR low-z channels and one Switchcraft high-z channel. It has 4 preamps with volume control one for each channel and overall tone controls. It has 2 - 6L6s and is about 26 watts. It is good for harp, but can't cut on a loud stage these days.
I recall seeing a 4-6L6 tube PA with 4 channels in a music store during the '70s. It apparently was considered a powerful rig for a club in the '50s.
My understanding is that only when the scene morphed toward louder rock and roll and there were solid state PAs in use that more powerful amps were used in big venues. That is when people began to use bigger amps on stage. That is also when stage volumes got out of hand.
I think that lower power and lower volumes were the norm in clubs in the '40, '50s and even early '60s. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 05, 2018 12:34 PM
Thievin' Heathen said: "I have a hard time accepting someone who was that good was completely blasé about their amps." I think this is a solid counter on what I think are some over generalizations made here. Serious players can shine with what they have - and even more with a rig they could choose. Back then the shine was always tubes so it was pretty likely to sound the way we like it :)
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 05, 2018 12:22 PM
I like Barrett's interview. It confirms what Luther Tucker, Walter's guitarist for almost eight years, told me. There were a lot of different amps over the years, no one particular model. He recalled an amp Walter really liked. It had eight speakers (Danelectro Commando??). They were "traveling in the south, in the country, and it fell out of the car, into the water" (pond? stream? lake? river?). They left it.
Not too different than today - if you're traveling to play how much room do you have to transport the musicians and equipment? Back then it was usually one station wagon and you needed room for people, axes, laundry, and suitcases for cash (no interstate banking back then). Amps? Maybe not. Up into the mid 60's B.B. King had four pieces - alto, tenor, drums, and organ (the organist played bass on the foot pedals). They towed the organ behind the station wagon.
Amps are a nice enhancement, not the defining factor. Guys who found their voices - Rice Miller, the Walters, Magic Sam, B.B. King, Robert Lockwood Jr, Junior Wells - they didn't rely on one amp or one instrument. They made whatever they played sound like them. ---------- BnT
@Littoral- Glad someone besides me knows this! The Originators HAD TO learn how to be sonically attractive, it was their living. Tube p.a.'s and amps didn't hurt a bit but regardless, the Walters, Sonnyboys, etc etc, found their harp voice. The whole amp thing was because guys like Muddy wanted to be heard on the street, over traffic noise- if you believe the popular movie from a few years back. Once drums and other backup instruments came into the picture it was a given that everyone get amped some way. Why wouldn't the harp guy need to hear himself along with everybody else? ----------
Some of you guys really don't think very practically. Musicians are people on the move. Being portable is important. People who live in big cities know how much of a pain in the ass it is to park and unload. If you have to make multiple trips, you run the risk of having your equipment stolen.
I saw Cotton and Junior more times than I can count. I think I saw Cotton play through an amp once back in the early 80's. I think I saw Junior play through an amp one time in California. It was for one song, he put down the mic and he played through the vocal mic for the rest of the night. I think it was Gary Smith's equipment. I saw Carey Bell damn near 100 times. He had that one microphone that Steve Bell uses. I saw that microphone about six times. I don't think that I ever saw him play thru the same amp twice.
Having grown up in and around Chicago, I can tell you it was pretty common for people to use whatever was around. Many of the guys who used an amp tried to use the smallest amp possible, because they had to transport them. Most of the people I saw, didn't really seem to care much about the coolness quotient of their equipment. The only guys I ever saw use a really big amp was Mojo Buford when he played with Muddy. Little Willie Anderson used a Super Reverb and he was singing thru it.
I never saw a Bassman until I moved to California and then I was told everyone in Chicago used them. That was news to me.
When people travel, you have to ask your self a question. How did they get here? Who do they know in the area? It is a rare blues musician that have people drive their stuff while the musician flies.
If a person flies in, they will likely use whatever is available to them. If the equipment you see them playing is nice and they flew in, it most likely belongs to a friend that is local.
If it is crappy and they flew in, the venue probably rented it.
Last Edited by Joe_L on Feb 05, 2018 3:46 PM
the original post was re: the early fifties. 50 51 52 53? amps at that time were small. fender released the pro amp in 51 it had a 15 inch speaker, i don't remember 20 watts? this is something a studio would have. before chess records had a studio,they would record at universal recording corp.
james cotton used an amp every time i heard him. i tipped the maiter'd one time and sat in the front row, back when i would check to see what amp everyone used.
check this out.... this is his band rider.... scroll down, notice where it says fender bassman.... no exceptions!
edit to add .....the pro amp was released in 1946....
Last Edited by 1847 on Feb 05, 2018 6:03 PM
1847, cool to see that contract. Nothing about the harp mic connection to the amp, using a 58? I saw him a few times with Muddy and he had a JT but on his own he used a 58 but that was through the PA.
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 05, 2018 5:58 PM
So what about james cotton’s mic ….. that is a great question. James joined the muddy’s band 1956? He did not play little walter note for note, he Did however approximate his sound. Lets face it, if he sounded like john popper he most likely would Not have gotten the gig. No disrespect for john popper, he does his own thing and is quite successful at it.But james was replacing the most iconic blues harmonica player ever. Walter sometimes would outsell muddy!
So what mic did he favor? A jt 30. Why is that? Because it had that sound. Most likely it was what Walter used…… James left the band in 1965To front his own band, he no longer was just a harp player, but also the singer.
So if you are a singer, you are not going to want to sing into a jt 30. Also a jt 30 is fragile. If you are playing 300 dates a year, you do not want to walk on stage only to find your main “high impedance” mic” does not work. This is where the” james cotton mic” comes in to play. a shure 585. He would sometimes use two mics. One for vocals thru the pa, and another mic to the amp for the harp.On occasion he would mic the amp and both sing and play harp thru the amp.
When I saw James Cotton maybe 10 years ago he got monster tone out of a plain sm57 vocal mic. A friend and protege was hosting the gig, so he could have had anything he wanted.
When Cotton's hit big playing the rock circuit in the late 60's (the band with Luther Tucker, Bobby Anderson, Alberto Gianquinto/or Bill Nugent, and Francis Clay) his rig was a Bassman head, two 6x10 speaker cabinets, and a Shure 585A mic (I still have the one he gave me). Unlike the Little Walter days they had an equipment manager who drove a van so the equipment traveled separately from the musicians. ---------- BnT
Last Edited by BnT on Feb 08, 2018 12:18 PM
Nope. Never saw him in Chicago. Never saw him with Muddy. When I saw him, he was in San Jose. He used a Bassman.
There were lots of other players. None of them used a Bassman. When I saw the Legendary Blues Band, Little Joe Berson was playing with them. I don’t remember what he was using.
Regarding your questions about Cotton, you could always ask Tom Holland or Steve Freund about Cotton’s amplification, they toured with him a ton.
Last Edited by Joe_L on Feb 08, 2018 12:18 AM
never met Tom Holland or Steve Freund. sorry i don't do facebook.
i really do not have any questions re: cotton. he played thru a bassman for most of his life with a jt 30 or a 585.
check out the newport video from 1960.. he has a bassman and what looks like a gibson ga 20 and a third amp that looks like a gretch that he may being using as well.
i saw carey bell one time that i remember, not positive, but i believe he was using rod's bassman and his twin. i can't remember if carey used his band or the mighty flyerss were the back up band.
@1847 -- I have to vehemently disagree with your assumption that he played thru a Bassman and a JT-30 because frankly, that's 1 whole boatload of total BS that your making largely unproven assumptions of. Did he use one at one time on a regular basis? Yes but you clearly do not have the facts correct one bit at all!!!!!
The last time Cotton carried an amp specifically for his harmonica was in 1977 and I was there at that gig when he opened for Johnny Winter. Since that time, 99% of the time, it has ALWAYS been thru the PA. I've seen Cotton many times over the years since 1972 and the first time I saw him, he used a Showman head with a Showman cabinet with 2-15's and the first gig I saw him at, the amp was also the PA!!!!! The video posted earlier shows it exactly right.
---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Feb 08, 2018 9:59 AM
So lets take a look at factual evidence presented.
Someone took a photo of the re-issue bassman he was using at a gig. The re-issue did not appear until 1990 that is 13 years past 1977 the photo was taken much later than 1990
Did you read the contract? He had a Lawyer write up. It specifically states a bassman is to be provided.
It also states 12 hand towels to be provided to wipe the sweat from his brow, nothing larger.
A chair is to be provided,with no arms, to set the amp up off the floor. So, let’s see a video from 1983 or so.
Something that clearly shows the hand towels on top of a bassman ……sitting on top of a chair with no legs.
If you read what I wrote… he used a jt 30 and a bassman with muddy waters, that is an undisputed fact.
I also stated that with his band he switched to a shure 585 I also stated several reasons why i “think” he did so.
Check out the videos where he has two microphones. He sings thru one and plays harp thru the other thru a bassman Then he plays thru the vocal mic thru the pa…. you can hear the differences. Yes there were times he did just play just thru the pa….. even in the sixties.
Lets take a listen to his album high compression, not only does it have a photo of the mic prominently displayed on the album cover, more importantly you can hear it.
I believe Little Walter could blow anyone's socks off without using an amplifier. As we used to tell hitters walking away from the plate looking at their bats after either striking, grounding, or flying out, "It ain't the bat dude."
Don't know if many (even Little Walter fans) would agree that he would "blow the socks off anyone" either.
A better analogy would be Bruce Lee IMO There are still those that truly believe that Bruce Lee could beat ANY martial arts/MMA fighter past or present. That is pure BS, just like the "theories" that Little Walter is better than any harp player past OR present.
......In addition, his life was cut short and he wasn't able to prove if his musical abilities could "stand the test of time" like so many other gifted musicians with careers that literally spanned over 5 decades.
Man.......the "sacred cow" syndrome runs rife on this forum ;(
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 08, 2018 12:02 PM
That cotton contract is interesting. Notice the stage plot does not include a harp amp. While it definitely clearly states amp: fender bassman (no substitute), and the stage plot matches up to all the details including quite specific stuff about the chairs and table for his harps, the harp amp is totally absent from the plot. Also the detail of an sm58 does not really jive with the idea of the amp. Not impossible but with all the other detail it’s interesting there’s no detail about use of this mic with a guitar amp. I see the date on that deal is 2014. I saw Cotton in April that year and the stuff about the chairs and him playing as he walked on stage all lines up with what I saw. The vocalist was Darrell Nulisch. He was most definitely not playing to an amp which anywhere visible on the stage. I was only 10 rows back and had a good view of the entire stage. Cotton caused pain with his high notes. I mean, he could have been plugged in to an amp hidden from view but I recall thinking he was straight into the PA and wishing the sound engineer would mellow it out cause it was freaking Harsh. I mean, I absolutely loved the show and especially seeing James but the harp sound was hard to listen to at times. I was ready to protect my ears when I saw him lift the mic.
I also believe LW could blow the socks off anyone amp'd or not and there has been no harp player since who has been his equal IMO and likely there never will be. He was a unique individual who happened to be in right place with the right stuff at a unique moment in history. It's not really possible to duplicate it. I think he would have laughed at this discussion.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Feb 08, 2018 12:10 PM
I also saw that show, I agree he was playing thru the pa. his sound changed. it sounded nothing like he did in the past. That’s the point I am trying to make.
The plot map was from his later years, the contract was an earlier time.
It would be great if we could sell all our gear and just play thru the pa.
If james has played thru the pa for forty years then why did his sound change so radically?
1847 - you seem like a nice enough guy, don’t make an assumption about anyone’s equipment based on what you see on a CD or album cover unless you are absolutely certain it was shot during that recording session. It is possible that the photo was shot during that session, but it’s more likely that it wasn’t. I have shot photos that a have been used on well over a dozen CD’s. Not one of those photos were shot during the recording session. I have shot many promo photos for artists. Many of them were staged and never occurred during a performance.
I like MindtheGap's comments. It is always worth experimenting to get the best sound you can. I'm still in the process after revisiting overdriven harp after 20 years plus of playing clean. The Pioneering sound of LW is fantastic of course, but can benefit from a bit of tone control clean up which probably wasn't readily available to him. For instance, I plug the mic in to a EQ pedal before the amp. I don't imagine he had that?
Live in Internationale Jazzwoche Burghausen, Germany on March 21, 1987. (*) James Cotton Blues Band are: Jonny Cotton (trombone), Douglas Fager (tenor sax), Danny' Boney' Fields (trumpet), Vernon Banks (guitar), Eddie Harsch (piano), Noel Neal (bass), Ray' Killer' Allison (drums).
here is a video from 1987. at the very beginning pay close attention. he is standing at the amp, it is on a chair, it is clearly visible,am i the only one that see's it am i the only one who hears it?
