Unquestionably he is playing through an amp on that 87 show in Germany. It’s even more clear on the video which shows the opening number rocket 88 and then the transition to easy lovin’ where he has gone to adjust the amp
so i think what happens is this.... we are so bombarded with stimuli we have quit listening. we tune things out that we do not want to hear.
forget about the harmonica for now , take a listen at 3:39 he steps back from the mic and croons. he has the entire auditorium in the palm of his hands.
if they had put james cotton on the ed sullivan show, he would have been bigger than the Beatles... just ask quincy jones...
thanks carl, i was worried that no one would get that joke... i crack myself up sometimes.
Last Edited by 1847 on Feb 09, 2018 8:26 PM
It should be obvious in the video of easy lovin, he is using a 585 into a bassman. So let’s have a listen to the song off the album. Forget for a minute there is a photo on the cover of him and a jt 30. “don’t think of a pink elephant”
Let’s use our ears. Can you hear the difference in timbre? The recording on the album has a more overdriven sound, While the live sound is much cleaner.
With smaller amps I have learned that my 585SAV has a cleaner sound than my CM or Ceramic bullet mics. Without resorting to anti-feedback devices the 585 can achieve a higher volume before feedback becomes a problem than my bullets. I haven't tried this with a Bassman, but if it holds true, the choice of a 585 might be for more reliable feedback resistant volume on stage than he could get with a bullet. In the studio, volume/feedback issues are less of a factor, and you can go for the sound without worry. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 10, 2018 9:35 AM
Since it's OT anyway, I will say that the Shure 585 mic is a very good hard working mic. I had a VC model but the VC had died. It was locked in with the barrel full of epoxy. Cartridge bad. I let it go to a guy who never got it going. I still have 2 on-off models one which is a spare, one I use about 1/3 of the time we play amped. To me a very dependable mic with a good sound.
Whatever else went on "in the day", I think LW was a total innovator with a harp way before he found a mic and amp or p.a. He's one of the very first who was noted for blowing the hell out of a harp regardless. Cotton, who learned some from LW, was another one. Both were total individuals who developed real technique and played from deep within. ----------
So we have james cotton playing a jt30 and a bassman amp, from…. 1960 to 2014 54 years. We all know he used different mic’s and amps, and yes, he would also play thru the pa. however, I think this clearly shows, he had a favorite mic, and a favorite amp. And his favorite mic may Not have been the one most associated with him, the 585. I think he used that as joe L expressed, For practical reasons.
The scott dirks interview was outstanding, and I agree with what he say for the most part. A recording studio in chicago would easily had a fender amp. The namm show at one time was held in Chicago. With one “notable exception” it was mostly piano manufactures.
This has been quite illuminating about cotton. For years I have accepted without question the oft cited wisdom that Cotton just used the PA.
As for ‘Little Walter didn’t even’, sure. I dunno about ‘even’ but there’s a bunch of reasons a person in his situation would not have been hung up on finding a magic unit to create his wonder sound. Not least being that the main things that were cool about his sound were not things generated by a particular piece of equipment but rather that their were a number of pieces of equipment which would serve the purpose. Just as there are now. I find the Barrett/Dirks interview interesting and good. What was the question?
Oh right, yeah we should step back from overthinking our gear choices because LW et al just used what was available. As do ‘we’ I think. But we have stuff pitched to us specifically to use for harp and then get into arguments about what’s better. Mostly I think people are just interested in finding what works for them but maybe some get caught up in trying to find ‘the best’. I’ve got a fair bit of gear, I’ve been interested in it. At the moment somewhat less interested because I’ve got solutions. I’ve got stuff I like to use but if I can’t i’ll use something else and sound equally mediocre through that. Anyway, I agree I think that there are many avenues of enquiry which taken too far become distractions and culdesacs which may be detrimental to progress overall. Then again, we’re all just filling in time so whatever toots your trumpet.
"the first time I saw him, he used a Showman head with a Showman cabinet with 2-15's and the first gig I saw him at, the amp was also the PA!!!!!"
i hate to beat a dead horse however....
so we are talking about the video that was posted... james cotton 1968. I am not sure if that is a showman or a bassman, the contract calls for a bassman, but either way, if is being used as a PA. that would mean, he has a separate mic for the vocal in the first input and another mic for the harmonica in channel 2. why would he do that?
but it gets even stranger. so if that amp is the pa, that means the mic that the sax player is using, a 545, is going to have to use the vibrato channel. but that's cool we still have one channel left over, so let's put another vocal mic in front of the bass player. another 545.
when you're poor growing up you learn not to waste things, but that is a little much,isn't it?
@1847 -- You're using gearhead mentality in what you're saying and back in the 30's all the way up to the mid 60's, signing straight thru the amp using the SAME mic that he played thru in the SAME channel was the norm back then.
I remember some sax players like one Cotton had in the early to mid 70's, Little Bo Sherif, actually used a Selmer sax amp and that still had to get miked up in loud situations and AC Reed, another Chicago sax player played thru a Super Reverb while he was gigging with Buddy Guy & Junior Wells and that still got miked up and in both cases, it was set up to be as clean as possible.
I had a conversation with my old buddy Paul Oscher on Facebook and he told me that while he was with Muddy, there were gigs, usually in ghetto clubs, where there was no PA and Muddy always carried a mic with him (most PA's, as well as mics, were ALL high-z units until the very late 70's), Muddy always had a mic with him and he just plugged straight into his Super Reverb amp.
Just because it's on THAT particular contract you should EVER imply that it meant on all contracts for his gigs because, unlike yourself, I've seen him many times since the early 70's, and the last time he carried an amp for his harp on a regular basis was in 1977, and he would either use a Super Reverb (and always set up for a CLEAN sound) or the Showman head and then later a solid state Acoustic 450 head into the Dual Showman cabinet with 2-15's and he sang thru each of those.
Another thing to remember, once you're in a studio, it's often an entirely different animal and don't assume he was playing thru a Bassman in the studio having real experience in recording sessions because 80% of the time, a Bassman is too freaking loud and will bleed all over the place into every other mike and recording engineers will get pissed and more often than not, much smaller amps will be used to record with (those amps as a general rule tend to record better and have almost no bleed thru problems because of volume.
BTW, a Showman head does NOT have two channels and back when I started, PA's often consisted of either a Showman head or a Twin REverb with a seperate set of columns, and Showman cabinets were quite common back then and all this is from GIGGING experience and NOT based on assumptions!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
" signing straight thru the amp using the SAME mic that he played thru in the SAME channel was the norm back then"
the video clearly shows 4 mic's.. james has two. if that amp only has 2 inputs.. what about the other vocal mic and the mic that the sax player is using?
In 1974 I went to a concert it had the most massive pa system I have ever seen or heard. Fifty thousand watts. When I saw james cotton and his band at the galaxy theater circa 1987 They had a state of the art sound system. Being a gear head I can guarantee I checked out his rig. Do I remember if it was a bassman …. Hell no, it was too long ago. After watching the video, I do remember that blue tee shirt.
If we were discussing jr. wells or billy boy Arnold, I would not have an argument. Junior played thru the pa all the time. He did the one time I saw him, but frankly it was a bit of a disappointment. I had the same experience seeing james cotton years later. It wasn’t the same. I had the exact same experience as super bee.
People will sit in with rod all the time, he hands off the mic to them. He will play thru the pa. And it sounds just like rod piazza, however…. It does not sound like ” ROD PIAZZA”
I encourage you to watch the video, you will notice the drums are mic’d he is singing into a sm 58 He plays the harp thru the pa, then switches to the 585 into an amp. It is plain as day.
this to me is the sound that made me want to play amplified harmonica. jerry portnoy is a huge influence. notice that when cotton sits in, he does not grab a mic off the stand, jerry hands him the harp mic . listen to how powerful the tone is.
i officialy declare the myth he always played thru the pa... is busted.
Last Edited by 1847 on Feb 13, 2018 10:40 AM
1847, I'm so glad you posted that video.. . Nothing to do with which amp or not though in my case... but hearing that concert on TV was the first time I heard amplified harmonica years ago and it blew me away. I learned every note that was played on the harp on that concert... well, ahem to the limit of my abilities at the time.
@1847 -- From dealing as a bandleader from the business side of things, you're making an assumption that what was seen on that contract applied to ALL of his gigs and that is simply not true at all and every gig has a different contract and most venues, regardless of how big the act is, other than a PA, won't be supplying amps or drums AKA the back line. I've done some gigs where a club has actually done that and most of the time, I wouldn't want to get near it because it sucked, tho there have been exceptions, and usually if there is a back line, it's more often in an outdoor festival setting with tons of acts considered headliners and having one backline makes transition from act to act quicker because for one thing, the sound people don't have to spend so much time setting things up for each act.
Sorry, the myth being busted is still BS. Why? In the above video, he's sitting in and using whatever was available at the moment and to be brutally honest, sitting in doesn't mean jack s**t, like it or not.
I've seen plenty of contracts over the years, including other bands' contracts and most all have riders on them of some sort and the main reason isn't for certain amenities because it's to make sure that ALL parties read the damned thing CAREFULLY and I can't begin to tell you what kind of crap is on these things.
Again, what may be on that contract for that particular gig, from ACTUAL GIGGING EXPERIENCE AS A BANDLEADER, doesn't necessarily apply to ALL gigs. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
the only asumption i am making is that you did not watch any of the videos, except possibly the last one. if you did you would see he is using 2 mic's, one to sing thru and one to play harp thru. he is using a sm 58 for the vocal's... it is a low impedance mic. the harp mic is a 585 ... a high impedance mic. viva la difference.
the contract called for a chair with no arms.. check. a bassman amp... check... hand towels nothing bigger... check.
i saw that tour when it came thru town, being a gear head you can bet i checked out what he was playing thru, i sat in the orchestra pit with his friends and family, do i remember what he was playing thru? hell no, that was 30 years ago. i do remember him crooning, love me or leave me, and that same blue tee shirt, but not much else.
tmf posted the videos from 2014... it can not be more clear what he is using. i have seen him many times, the last time was in 2011 and yes he was playing thru the pa on that occasion.
Bullet Mics Is it really all about the element and the shell has little or no impact on the sound? Or does the type of shell impact the sound in any way?
Elcoh. "re: bullet mics" - The tone you bring is the key. Between the value of the element vs. shell I'd place more emphasis on the element. Whether I have an Astatic 200, Turner, brown biscuit, Shure 520 green bullet, or JT-30 shell it's about how it fits in your hand and allows you to cup the harp. Older (vintage) elements have such a wide variance between the qualities of crystal, CR black label, or CM white label; plus they had less consistency (quality control) from mic to mic when originally built, and all have aged differently in the last 50-70 years...so your 1958 CM and mine may sound very different. New elements? I don't know.ByFUA6 ---------- BnT
My own interest in gear, if mapped over time, looks like a Bell curve. It's low early on, high in the middle years, and pretty low right now.
For the first few years, as a HS and then college kid, I played through a range of amps, including my guitarist Lloyd Fricker's pair of 4 x 12 solid state Peavey cabinets attached to the solid state head. (He had the big amp, so we both plugged into that.) I had no conception of tube vs. solid state distortion. I just plugged in to whatever amp was available and turned up and worked with whatever sound I got.
In the mid-80s, when I began to sit in with bands in NYC and even get an occasional indoor gig (as opposed to busking gig, where I used my Mouse), I was playing through a Peavey 50 watt hybrid amp--solid state preamp, tube power amp, as I recall. 1 x 12. Just about the suckiest harp amp ever made. Feedback was a constant threat.
Trying to improve that sound sent me on a quest. I bought a blackface Fender Super Reverb that had been modified so that it had 2 x 12" speakers. That was a decent amp. I bought another Fender Super, silverface, from Trip Henderson. Then I began to buy the amps that I now own, usually from Chelsea Guitars down on 23rd St: a '54 Tweed Deluxe; a '55 Bassman (from Trip); a pair of late 50s/early 60s Premiere Twin 8's. This all happened in the early 90s as Satan and Adam suddenly started getting club and then festival gigs.
At one point I remember staging an amp showdown. I loaded all six amps (the Supers, Bassman, Deluxe, both Premieres) into the back of my car, drove out to my parents' house in the suburbs, lined them up in a row in the living room, and blasted away at top volume for about an hour. I wanted to KNOW which amp had the best sound. I'm not sure what I decided, but it was satisfying to blast away on that many amps for that long.
I also had an Ampeg Rocket, modified so that it had 1 x15, and an Ampeg Geminii. I used the Rocket a fair bit. Not a bad sound. Better than the Peavey, definitely!
Bit by bit, through experimentation, I figured out that I did better, came closest to the sound I had in my head, with smaller amps. I got a smaller, more overdriven, and more workable sound. With S&A, I always used a pair of amps. At one point I was using the Bassman and the Deluxe. Two tweedy amps. But eventually I realized that the Bassman was just too loud; I couldn't turn it up to get the sound I wanted in a duo setting without just being too damned loud.
For three or four years, from 1994 to 1998, I'd say, I used the older Premiere and the Deluxe when Sterling and I played. That's the pair I settled on. 2 x 8 and 1 x 12.
For quite a long time now, first as a solo OMB act and then, in the last five years with the Blues Doctors, I've gone even smaller. In smaller/quieter rooms, I use a Kay and a Masco, each with roughly 5 watts. In bigger rooms I pair the Kay with the Premier. On outdoor stages, I pair the Premier with a Pacemaker, which has 1 x 12, is very loud, and has a fantastic sound.
Now that I've found what works for me, I never think about gear--or at least I never think about amps and mics. As in NEVER. I've got what I need.
I've also come to realize that gear is strictly secondary to the music itself, and, importantly, to the feeling in your heart and soul that leads you to want to make music in the first place. Bad gear, the wrong gear, can certainly mess up your music. But the right gear just gives you a chance to focus fully on the much more important stuff that you should have been focusing on all along.
It's hard to become a fully-operational, creative, inspired musician. In my view, one reason that many blues players at a less advanced level focus on gear is that it's a pretty easy way of feeling as though you're part of the subculture. Gear-talk is fun, easy, and can be supplemented by the spending of money and the grousing about gear.
Meanwhile, the heart and soul of the blues lie somewhere else. You can't buy them, you can't easily upgrade. You have to live the experiences; you have to spend long, long, long hours actually practicing and mastering the music. Not everybody wants to do that. (Both Jason Ricci and Dennis Gruenling, whom I knew during their growth phases, put in long, long, long hours. Most people have no idea how hard they worked.)
The takeaway from this little narrative isn't "Don't worry about gear." Every player who got very good, I suspect, spent some time thinking about gear--how to get THEIR sound using the available gear. But never, never imagine that gear is of paramount importance in the grand scheme of things. It's just an interesting source of conversation that distracts from far more important issues. It's a set of fairly narrow issues that you have to figure out--including a second set of very important issues about how to dial in sounds in particular rooms, how to position amps, etc., that show up over time when you play a lot of gigs in different spaces--in order to free yourself to get back to the much more important stuff: working with a groove, coming up with something original, making the overall track sound good, soloing over non-standard changes, not overplaying, keeping the flow, etc. ---------- Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 18, 2018 5:36 AM
@Kudzurunner: So, you own at least half a dozen amps, and good ones, if I understand correctly. I envy you. (But if it was me I´d probably have to change apartments ...)
Your issue with gear is more or less settled through wise decisions in the past. I´ve trudged along through the years, making do with what I´ve got, but have never been happy -- and plagued by somewhat uncertain financial circumstances for most of my life (freelancing) I´ve never been able to fund such a healthy investment as you did back in the day.
Now my thoughts go to gear nearly all the time. Terribly annoying. (Money would settle the issue right away, of that I´m certain.) But sounding bad for me means playing bad. And that´s of paramount importance.
Gear is relatively simple to talk about, even if it, as obvious above, can heat up emotions (although not to the extent when you hint that a successful harmonica player perhaps is not really up to par if you scrutinize him closely) and that´s a big reason why I´m on this forum.
Martin: I own nine amps, not counting the two Mouses.
1952 Masco MU-5 (1 x 8")
1954 Fender Deluxe (1 x 12")
1955 Fender Bassman (4 x 10")
1960 Gibson Maestro GA-45 (4 x 8")
1962 Premier Twin-8 (2 x 8")
1963 Premier Twin-8 (2 x 8")
early 1960s Kay 701 (1 x 8")
2008 HarpGear HG2 (1 x 8")
1950s Pacemaker tube PA amp (1 x 12")
The amps I bought back in the 1990s--the Deluxe, Bassman, Kay, and both Premiers--weren't that expensive. I paid $600 for the Premiers, as a package deal. I paid $1500, I believe, for the Bassman. The Kay was a couple of hundred bucks.
I'm not certain that money would settle the issue for you. Certainly it didn't settle the issue for me. I'm not even sure that it's fair to say that I made wise decisions in the past. I lucked into a few amps that sound great with my mic. But I also made many bad decisions along the way.
BTW, I am definitely planning on unloading the Gibson at HCH this May, one way or another. It's in fine shape; it's just not the right amp for me. 4 x 8" is a great configuration for harp.
Adam: It could be that these things are a little bit more expensive here in Sweden. Unsurprisingly. But I´ve certainly not behaved in the most rational manner when it comes to gear -- I should have done more hard work earlier on and saved myself some troubles later.
When it comes to playing blues I´ve been completely happy with my sound, all aspects of it, at one (1) time. One gig. And that was borrowed stuff, not for sale.
Still, I think, with money and (what little) knowledge I have now, the preconditions for making a satisfactory (hypothetical) purchase have improved, and there are several items on your list that I´d be prepared to walk the extra mile for.
Last Edited by Martin on Mar 18, 2018 11:24 AM
Charles appears to have opted for the minimalistic approach. A comfortable stratagem. I know it´s blasphemy but can´t help thinking that if he had dedicated one of those mics to the harmonica, perhaps the performance would have gotten a bit more lively?
For posterity, when I get rich and famous, I play through a Park G10R with a Shure Prologue, usually an 8L, although I've got another one. At shows I often play through the PA through a Shure 58.
