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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
MBD or Manji?
MBD or Manji?
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Davidsouzmr
1 post
Nov 24, 2017
12:17 PM
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Im just a begginer from Brazil, ive been playing for about a month... i can play some stuff, do bends and thats it for now. My first harp was a Big River in C, and i loved it until i bought a Marine Band in G. I know that G is supossed to be harder to play... but for me, was way easier, way responsive, louder and fun.
Now i want to buy a different one. Marine Band Deluxe or Manji... Their prices here in Brazil are: MBD(R$270/$84) and Manji(R$160~R$200/$49.50~$62), the manji price floats alot... i often see manji be compared to Crossover, but here in Brazil Crossover is way expesive, something like $160~170. I'm kind afraid to go on Manji because i read some post talking about their quality control... but i want to hear an last word and consideration.
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nacoran
9664 posts
Nov 24, 2017
12:33 PM
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They are pretty comparable I think. Maybe a slight edge to the Manji.
If you are in Brazil though, you might be able to get a Hering. They are supposed to be pretty solid harps. They've had distribution problems outside of Brazil though, although it looks like their site might be down... hmm, that's not a good sign. :( I know Bends, which was also Brazilian, shut down.
If the Manji is cheaper, I'd go with the Manji.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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groyster1
3041 posts
Nov 24, 2017
1:35 PM
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dont know about south america but mbdeluxe are not available here in USA.....I have a few of them and the manjis......marine band deluxe is superior....also to crossoverIMHO
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jbone
2389 posts
Nov 24, 2017
2:15 PM
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I have stock and a couple of custom MB's. My main harp for about 4 years was Manji. My gig kit has a few different makes and models in it from Manji to MB to Eastop to even a Big River or two. Manji has very good reed plates IMO. Plus replaceable plates for about 1/2 the price of a new harp. I will say I've been a bit disappointed with a couple of Manji harps or plate sets I've put in them but over all I think Manji has been my best purchase. Custom anything costs way more. I have yet to try a MB Deluxe or Crossover. When Manji first came out I think they did better quality control and it may have slipped with high demand over recent years. This happened with Hohner as well and they finally retooled I guess. Plus to compete with both customs and Manji Hohner came up with the MB Custom and Crossover- a "better" than "stock" harp.
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florida-trader
1229 posts
Nov 24, 2017
4:19 PM
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Davidsouzmr Welcome to the forum. Either the Manji or the Crossover are good choices. Whoever told you or wrote in a post about the quality control of Manji reed plates is sadly misinformed. Suzuki's engineering and production are superb. I am both a Hohner and a Suzuki dealer so I really don't have any favorites in this race. I am big fan of both harps.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Nov 24, 2017 4:20 PM
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robbert
427 posts
Nov 24, 2017
4:48 PM
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Manjis are my primary gigging harp these days. I’ve used other makes in the past such as MB, Sp 20, lee Oskar, and actually, liked them all. However, I’ve found the Manji to be extremely durable. So much depends on the player’s technique, the sound system, etc. in terms of playing too hard, but the Manji is well built and holds up. I adjust the gaps on all my harps to get the response I want, and that is certainly true of the Manji, but in general, It’s pretty good bang for the buck, as it is.
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jbone
2390 posts
Nov 24, 2017
6:50 PM
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@ floridatrader,
Maybe my style has morphed or I got more used to Manji, but I have noticed a change in recent months. I will add I'm usually not one to try flattening combs or deburring screw holes so it may be my bad. What drew me to Manji originally- and still does- is mostly ootb good quality and replaceable reed plates when I do manage to flat a reed. Perhaps I spoke too soon.
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AppalachiaBlues
92 posts
Nov 24, 2017
6:51 PM
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I like both, but prefer the Manji for playability, hand/mouth feel, and volume/tone.
The quality control on Manji is very high, and I find they actually are more consistent OOTB than the MBD. I find Hohners to be higher maintenance.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Nov 24, 2017 7:00 PM
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Davidsouzmr
2 posts
Nov 24, 2017
7:25 PM
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Wow, thanks for all the answers... so, a Manji is louder than a MB? I already think that my MB is pretty loud... for studies purpose of course. So i will try them out. In therms of response... Manji and MB are pretty much the same? or one way more responsive? Im asking this cos from my Big river to the MB i felt a huge difference. MB play way louder with the same amount of air, bend comes easy as well.
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jbone
2391 posts
Nov 24, 2017
8:06 PM
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I believe that Manji usually outlasts MB in a gig situation.
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dchurch
159 posts
Nov 24, 2017
10:25 PM
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D, welcome to the forum. And welcome to the process of discovering your favorite harp.
The Manji is a fine harmonica and seems a better value in your situation. It may become your favorite harp. It is one of mine. You really can't go wrong by trying any of the better quality harmonicas mentioned in this forum. Lee Oskar, Sepcial 20, Seydel Season.... There are world class players that swear by all of these. It is largely a matter of personal taste. So I would pay attention to price and availability.
You will discover that no model is 100% consistant of the box (OTB). It will really help if you learn to adjust reed gaps. I suggest you read up on that subject at some point and start by experimenting on your Big River.
Be careful not to push for volume. Good harps can be damaged by hard sucking and blowing. Just breath easy and strive for nice tone and clear notes.
Good luck,
Dave
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It's about time I got around to this.
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Davidsouzmr
3 posts
Nov 25, 2017
4:43 AM
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dchurch, that is what im going to do... will buy 2 or 3 manji, one in C... and will try to learn how to gap and all this stuff on the big river.
Thanks for all the advices! i will make sure to leave my impressions about the manji's.
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Flbl
49 posts
Nov 25, 2017
4:52 AM
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I've never heard of quality control issues with Suzuki, new players will say they are hard to bend, but thats not really right, they're made with thicker reeds that require more control over bends, thats good in two ways, first the reeds will last longer, and you are forced to bend right.
Since I started with Manji's I can hear the difference, not just with them but with all my other harps as well.
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florida-trader
1231 posts
Nov 25, 2017
7:07 PM
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I know this is slightly off topic. Some folks have already made mention of this. It behooves you to learn how to make some simple adjustments on your harps. I know that I am in the business and it has become second nature to me, but we all have to start somewhere. Honestly, there really is no reason for anyone who is serious about playing the harp to have a high quality harp like a Crossover or a Manji and not have it play well. And I'm not talking about doing a full customization. I'm talking simple things like flat sanding a draw plate or adjusting a gap. Or flat sanding a comb if necessary. The affect of these simple adjustments is astounding. it is far easier than you migh think. I promise that once you learn how to do this you will ask yourself, "What the Hell was I so afraid of?"
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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nacoran
9665 posts
Nov 25, 2017
9:23 PM
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I'm a big fan of trying different harps. We are all different and have different preferences. As you get more harps you'll figure out what you like...
Sidevents
Open back
Recessed or Protruding reed plates
Long or Short covers, (or Jellybean)
Brands
Temperaments
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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synopsis
8 posts
Nov 25, 2017
9:24 PM
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Hello @Davidsouzmr, I'm not surprised you can easily play your MB classic in G key, beside the fact it's already a great harmonica. The post-2011 models have a far greater comb than before.
After years, I came to the conclusion that when paying above a specific price, they're all good, and the price difference is only justified by the costs of manufacturing.
I've got this feeling when comparing my Crossovers in different keys to my MBD.
The Crossovers are supposed to sound more "Cristal" than the MBD.
I'm still wondering if it's not a placebo feeling.
Why I prefer my MBDs over the Crossovers I don't know. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to differentiate them in a blind test.
Like already said, no harp are 100% fine out of the box (whatever you pay), however I do not recommend you to try changing something too early.
There are too many videos on YouTube explaining one thing and its opposite, especially regarding reed gaping.
It takes long practice until your needs really justify to make reed adjustments and it takes years until you really understand what you're doing and also the interdependency between draw and low reeds (not only for overblow setup).
When you open an harmonica as a beginner to adjust something and you believe having understood something because you saw enough YouTube videos, you'll end up breaking a reed.
Last Edited by synopsis on Nov 25, 2017 9:26 PM
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Gnarly
2349 posts
Nov 25, 2017
10:58 PM
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As far as quality control with the Manji, I am in a position to know, since I do the warranty work for Suzuki in the US.
I don't get a lot of harps to work on, sometimes not even one a week. I work three days a week, and they have me refurbishing tone chimes as well.
That should give you an idea of the number of harmonicas found faulty by customers.
I know that the original post was by a fellow from Brazil, but they are the same harps.
And, AFAIK, the warranty covers replacement reed plates. One year.
I find that the Suzuki harps are gapped low as a rule.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 25, 2017 11:01 PM
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florida-trader
1232 posts
Nov 26, 2017
10:13 AM
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synopsis - with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion....
"When you open an harmonica as a beginner to adjust something and you believe having understood something because you saw enough YouTube videos, you'll end up breaking a reed."
Reeds are not butterfly wings. They are little springs which, if bent too far, can be bent back. I have worked on thousands of reed plates and have never broken a reed - even when I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I have mangled a few by snagging them with a fingernail or a tool or a cloth as I was cleaning it but with a little patience, even they can be straightened out and play just fine. But as for just breaking a reed - never.
I don't mean to make this a personal attack. I don't know what your skill level is or your experience. Perhaps you are a very skilled customizer and are simply trying to warn the OP to "Proceed with caution." I really don't know. That said, the reason I take exception to your statement is because too often people read something on a foum or on Facebook that simply isn't true and it gets repeated. There are a lot of myths out there about working on harmonicas that have been repeated over and over and are now assumed to be true.
Bear in mind, as a Harp Tech, it could be argued that if more people know how to work on their own harps, there would be less demand for my services. That doesn't matter to me. What matters is that there are thousands upon thousands of harps in circulation that are underutilized for want of a couple of simple adjustments. The more people who ignore their fear and learn how to make these simple adjustments the better off we will all be.
Also, I second Gnarly's information. I have been building Suzuki harps for about 5 years now and although I am not an official Suzuki Repair Tech, I do repair the harps I build for my customers and in 5 years I have not had one Suzuki returned because of reed failure.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Nov 26, 2017 10:18 AM
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synopsis
9 posts
Nov 26, 2017
11:00 AM
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Hello @florida-trader,
Thanks for your answer.
Actually, all Internet forums have for members, professionals, technical experts, and average guys (just I consider being), all in the same place.
The language in the forum is understood differently.
When you buy an MB or a Suzuki Manji or equivalent. You and me know they aren't really "leaky" or having any problems.
They all play fine out of the box, and are definitely good to play.
An expert would say here "it's leaky" (meaning, it needs improvement and has potential).
A beginner may understand: "it's a bad one out of the box, and i absolutely need to adjust it right away".
Beginners can be tempted too early to modify an harmonica just because they read or saw it's supposed to play better without really being able to feel the difference.
When people are tempted or pushed to modify their harmonica too early, there is an risk of doing more harm than anything good.
What is the point of trying to do something just in the hope having a result they could feel the difference?
There are too many videos saying one thing and the other. It's confusing.
It took me time to have the guts touching my "good" harmonicas and really understand beforehand what I wanted to achive (and not doing it for the sake of having some random benefit).
And I'm still learning.
After all this time, I see I still need long time to adjust brass reeds and way more if I want to adjust stainless reeds (I'm not doing anything else than gaping adjustment).
I consider it as delicate and long work.
But here again, despite lots of videos you'll see, there are no explanations whether you have to close/lift or bend a reed in one direction.
Everyone are doing videos, the informaiton is confusing. It's not like attending a proper workshop to learn how to do it (and here as well, there are variations).
I'm the opinion it's not worth modifying an harmonica as a beginner unless you have reached a certain level playing it and really understand what exactly you want to sharpen and how you want to sharpen.
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florida-trader
1233 posts
Nov 26, 2017
11:39 AM
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synopsis - I understand. If I may paraphrase, you are saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Am i correct?
I do agree with you that there is a lot of conflicting information on YouTube and all over the net about harp repair, maintenence and customization. It can be difficult to separate reality from fiction. That is why I am speaking up. I could be wrong about everything. That is possible. I am not infallible. However, I do have the benefit of having worked on thousands of harps in the past eight years since I have been in business. I don't know everything. I am still learning. That is part of what makes this a fascinating business. But I am pretty confident that I have the simple stuff figured out.
For every brand there are some who love it and some who hate it. There are a lot of people on the internet who make blanket statements such as, "All (insert brand name) harmonicas suck!" In my opinion, those people are just showing their ignorance. Even though I make and sell custom combs and custom harps, I have never said that every stock comb needs to be replaced or every Out of the Box Harmonica needs to be adjusted. Why? Because it simply is not true. Lord knows that there are enough harps out there that don't play well to keep us all busy. We don't need to attack harps that there is nothing wrong with.
We disagree about two major points. First, even a beginner can tell the difference between a harp that plays easily and one that doesn't. If a guy only has one harp and it is a dog, but he has nothing to compare it to, then perhaps he might not kow that it is a dog. But if a guy has two harps and one is responsive and easy to play and the other one is not, he can tell the difference. So I reject your basic premise that a beginner will be tempted to ruin good harps. Perhaps that has been your experience but I think that most guys have enough common sense to leave the harps that play good alone and if they dredge up the courage to fix a harp, to work on the ones that don't play well. If you have some harps that you just don't like to play and you tend to avoid them, those are the ones you want to work on.
Second, it does not take a long time to adjust brass reeds. Hohner reeds are very soft and very easy to adjust. The rule of thumb is to make small adjustments and then test. Small adjustments and then test. After you have done 2 or 3 Hohners, you can pretty much dial in the gaps in a matter of minutes. I don't understand why you need a long time to do this. Suzuki reeds are Phosphor Bronze and they are stiffer than the brass Hohner reeds. Seydel reeds are Stainless Steel and they are stiffer yet than the Suzukis. So, yes, Suzukis and Seydels take a little more "work" to adjust a reed as compared to a Hohner. You have to flex the reed several times on a Suzuki or a Seydel to re-set the gap and get it to stay. Not so on a Hohner. But still, when you add it all up, this is not major surgery. These are simple adjustments.
So, again, I mean no disrespect to you. You have your opinion and I have mine. I accept the possibility that you could be right and I could be wrong.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Nov 28, 2017 7:34 AM
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SuperBee
5090 posts
Nov 27, 2017
1:01 PM
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Hard to argue with that Tom.
I recall the frustration of the years before I learned to adjust my harps. And the great sense of empowerment that came with being able to fix them. First, in making adjustments so they’d play ok, and then in being able to replace reeds.
Before, I never knew what to expect when I bought a new harp. Was it the brand, model, key? Special 20s no good, or just no good in C? Bluesmasters no good? Or just D harps no good?
I got lucky with a pair of Huang SDs, but then one broke and they were no longer in the store.
The first person I saw mention ‘gapping’ was a poster named Harpwrench. I had no idea who that was but I investigated the term and life was forever changed.
Then I saw a poster with the handle MP talk about replacing individual reeds. Mind blown. Took me a while to commit to getting down with that, but never looked back.
There is a wealth of really good information available. It’s not hard to sort the good from the dodgy.
Kinya pollard and MP got me started. Joe Spiers is helpful. Richard Sleigh and Andrew Zajac are pretty reliable and helpful.
There are others. Elkriverharmonicas usedvto have some good info on yt. Not sure if he still has it up.
The main reason I avoid Suzuki is the non—availability of spare reeds. I’m invested in marine band/sp20 harps and it’s just simpler to stick with that. And there are lots of secondhand harps for spares at nextvto no cost. I don’t care for Seydel forca few reasons but mainly they’re a bit harder to work on, and I’m already invested. And satisfied.
I don’t buy the line about not having time to work on harps, didn’t pay $x and expect to have to adjust it, just not right blah blah thump thump you kids get off my lawn. But if people don’t want to do the work or they want to pay extra to have it done (whether pre or post retail, you still pay for it because someone has to do it. They don’t sett themselves up)
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florida-trader
1234 posts
Nov 28, 2017
7:52 AM
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"you kids get off my lawn" LOL
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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dougharps
1618 posts
Nov 28, 2017
9:17 AM
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I like both harps, though the Manji requires a different attack for bends on the low octave. They are both really good diatonics. At the prices noted above, I would buy Manji...
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Doug S.
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Raven
122 posts
Nov 28, 2017
12:59 PM
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Prefer my Manji's over my SP20's, MB, Crossover, LO and Seydel's. Only own one fully customized harp...the rest I play all OOTB. Yes, occasionally all of us have to do a little gapping as well as removing bits of foreign matter that might jam a reed. The point made above about the fact that the forum contains beginners to experts...some with a full musical education and complete working knowledge of every available note on every keyed harp and those who haven't the foggiest notion of music theory, explains why some will tout full customization playing only through a crystal element in a vintage mic and into an amp from the 60's that has been hand-wired, had the speaker changed out and changed the vacuum tubes and those that can still have a good time using a mass-produced mic, a solid-state amp and an OOTB harp.
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SuperBee
5094 posts
Nov 28, 2017
6:39 PM
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oh dear. i've been working long hours the last few weeks and sometimes when i shut down i fall asleep in the comfy chair. from the above looks like it was happening while i posted.
i think i was trying to say at the end there, if you want a harp to perform well, you will pay for it one way or another. slightly off topic for the OP though, sorry.
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Littoral
1530 posts
Nov 29, 2017
6:04 AM
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Manji's have been an adventure for me over the last year. Crossovers I love but they don't hold up real well to my abuse. Maybe my favorite is SP20's with Blue Moon's acrylic combs. Truly a curvy beast. The 20's require at least as much maintenance as the Crossovers but they sure are sweet if they're treated nicely. I prefer that tuning as well.
Manji's I really do like. They're tough and suffer some for it in terms of responsiveness. I've gapped mine but that's it. They do break in more than any other model I've ever used. I assume it's also some % is me using them correctly. I suspect the next thing for me is to add a comb to a Manji but I do like the ones they come with.
Last Edited by Littoral on Nov 29, 2017 6:07 AM
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Flbl
52 posts
Nov 29, 2017
12:10 PM
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I have noticed that I have more Suzuki harps than other brands, but except for Hohners what I've got have been really good OTB, thats Suzuki, Seydel, Lee Oskar, EastTop, I've been pretty happy much rather be playing them than working on them, so far I have only changed one comb on a Manji, I really cant say i noticed much of a change in tone, of course it was my favorite Ab that plays better than all the rest so I'm not to sure it could be made to sound better, the comb was a Blue Moon acrylic and looks amazing though. If it were me and the choice is Manji or MB, and Manji is less I'd get every one I could before some one realized the screwed up the price.
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shakeylee
709 posts
Nov 29, 2017
8:20 PM
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I like manjis,and they last me seven or eight years.so,I think they hold up well.
Also,as you’re in Brazil, keep your eye out for hering harmonicas.
They might have shut down the factory ,but maybe some atores still have old stock.
I think the MB sized herings,vintage 1923,super 20,master blues,and free blues can be decent harps.
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www.shakeylee.com
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Andrew
1740 posts
Nov 30, 2017
7:46 AM
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Yeah, Madcat endorses/endorsed Hering. I had one once (1923). I vaguely recall it was the "very solid" type, which didn't float my boat, but obviously others liked it.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Nov 30, 2017 10:06 AM
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dougharps
1624 posts
Nov 30, 2017
8:30 AM
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I like the sound of the chords on my 5 Hering 1923 Just Intonation diatonic harps, but the combs are variable in flatness (one has saw marks???!!!), and I don't believe they are comparable in quality to MBDs, Crossovers, Manjis, or Seydel Session Steels or 1847s.
EDIT: I am quite fond of my 8 keys of Hering 5148 chromatics that are no longer available in the US.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Nov 30, 2017 12:59 PM
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florida-trader
1240 posts
Nov 30, 2017
12:21 PM
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I had the opportunity to visit with Madcat at SPAH a couple of years ago and we talked about how at one time he endorsed Huang Harmonicas. It seems that Cham ber Huang, the owner, customized a set of harps for Madcat and they played great, but when he started playing the stock Huangs, well – not so good. I suspect that the same thing may have happened with Hering. I dunno. That said, here is the info according to his website.
http://www.madcatmusic.net/equipment.html
“During the last 50 years I've used a lot of different makes and models of harmonicas... I'm currently using a full set of the Seydel Noble Harmonicas (with stainless steel reeds). These are the very best harmonicas I have ever used!”
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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