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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Mentality behind position playing?
Mentality behind position playing?
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Mirco
555 posts
Nov 08, 2017
8:02 AM
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I was watching a video by Dan Ridgeway where he shows how to play in 4th position and get the major scale. (It uses overblows.)
I wonder why someone would elect to use 4th position to play major. If someone wants to play major, shouldn't they just play in 1st position or 12th position? Maybe I am not understanding the mentality behind positions.
The reasons I see to play in positions are:
1) To achieve a certain feel. On a C harp, if you play from C to C (4 blow to 7 blow), you get a major feel. On the same harmonica, if you play from G to G (2 draw to 6 blow), you're playing the same notes, but the focus shifts from a C root to a G root and it gives you the Mixolydian scale. Continuing in this way, you can get the Dorian mode in 3rd position (D to D), the Aeolian in 4th (A to A), and so on.
It follows that the strength of any mode is in the relationships between the notes in the scale. The strength of 3rd position is the ease in which it plays minor. While it's possible (and cool! Think William Clarke.) to play 3rd position major, it's not exactly playing to the strength of the position. The difficulty is compounded in 4th and 5th, where playing in a major way necessitates overblows. It seems that it would make sense to play 4th and 5th for their relative strengths, instead of making them major.
2) The only other reason I can see to play positions is if you don't have all the keys in harmonica. Oftentimes at jams, a singer will call a song in Bb. This necessitates me playing in 1st, because I don't have an Eb or an Ab.
Why would someone go to the trouble of playing in 4th (or 5th, whatever) position with a major sound?
BTW, the Ridgeway video is this one: https://youtu.be/cbELTFan4NU
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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Andrew
1715 posts
Nov 08, 2017
8:33 AM
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I don't do more than positions 1, 2, 3 and 12.
4th seems to offer a choice of major or minor 7th (as well as major or minor 3rd), so perhaps that could be a reason for choosing it?
(With apologies to Winslow for adding this after he posted - different positions offer up different notes in the scale for bending. If you only play in 2nd, the same notes get bent all the time and it can sound clichéed.)
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Nov 08, 2017 9:02 AM
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WinslowYerxa
1472 posts
Nov 08, 2017
8:47 AM
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I remember hearing Howard Levy play the song Body and Soul. Jazz musicians always play this song in D-flat. And it's in a major key.
His harp choice (at least on that particular day)? An A-harp - fifth position relative to a song in D-flat. Playing a major scale in fifth position requires a lot of dexterity.
Why that choice? He told me he just liked the possibilities it offered.
OK, so how could such a position - which defaults to a minor type of scale (Phrygian mode, to be precise) be a good fit for a major key?
Or more generally, why would you choose a position that defaults to a different type of scale from the melody of the song? What could be so compelling, other than a perverse desire to show off the level of technical ability that would make this possible?
Expressivity.
To be sure, if the reeds give you the notes of the song's scale, you can use vibrato, dynamics, tonal shading, hand cupping, and bending into and out of notes to create expression.
But other factors also influence expressivity. Getting from one note to another may involve hole changes, breath changes, and bending/unbending (I include overblows and overdraws in the general category of bending). Here are a few of the possibilities that may vary significantly depending on the combination of position and scale:
===Bent notes have different tonal qualities from unbent notes, and those tonal qualities - and changes in tonal qualities as you move through a melody - can be part of the expression of that melody. Moving in and out of bent notes, and from bend to bend, can also have unique expressive qualities.
===Same-breath sequences can sound smooth because the breath direction doesn't change. They can also facilitate smooth and rapid motion between chord notes or scale notes, and may offer useful harmonies of two or more notes played simultaneously.
===Changes in breath direction interrupt the flow of both breath and sound, and can either disrupt a desired smooth transition, or can add a desired rough texture or percussive effect.
===Pitch-based vibrato is available for some notes and not for others. Choice of position can gives this potential to different degrees in the scale. Howard relates that for some middle eastern music, vibrato goes up in pitch instead of down, making a bent note a desirable note to add this type of vibrato.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons worldwide, by a leading expert
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Nov 08, 2017 10:56 AM
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Grey Owl
853 posts
Nov 08, 2017
9:08 AM
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A well thought out and informative post Winslow. Great stuff!
YouTube
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PM42
48 posts
Nov 08, 2017
10:42 AM
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Great stuff, Winslow: thanks.
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Tuckster
1659 posts
Nov 08, 2017
11:41 AM
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Great thread. Thanks Winslow! (And a very belated Happy Birthday!)
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Gnarly
2338 posts
Nov 08, 2017
12:07 PM
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Howard talks about this on this video collection--here's a promo clip with samples of all the tunes.
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slaphappy
332 posts
Nov 08, 2017
1:37 PM
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the only other reason I can think of not mentioned already is register. You might choose a certain position simply because you want to use a lower key harp for example although this could probably fall under "expression" (great post Winslow!)
Marc, continuing our parking lot convo.. I still think a study of 4th position major would largely be a waste of your time. yeah you might get a few things out of it but unless you want to play like Howard I just don't see much bang for the buck for blues players to spend time on stuff like that. Unless you have a lot of time to spare in which case knock yourself out. ;) I'll keep working on my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd..
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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WinslowYerxa
1473 posts
Nov 08, 2017
2:09 PM
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I'll give a reason to study 4th position major:
The V chord in 3rd position.
Most players punt on the V chord when they play in third.
The I chord is available as a minor chord from Draw 4 to 10.
The IV chord is available as Draw 1-4.
But the V chord isn't really available, so players tend to hammer on Blow 5 (the 5th of he V chord) or wail on Draw 6 (the root of the V chord) or maybe one or two other things.
But if you can play some 4th position major, suddenly (OK gradually, as you learn it) that same chord is the V chord in third position.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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Andrew
1716 posts
Nov 11, 2017
2:32 AM
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I'm finding this hard to follow, Winslow.
Let's use a concrete example.
You're playing a C harp in 3rd position - D minor.
And you want to play in A major or minor for the V chord.
Which chords are you suggesting?
Because if you are simply suggesting note sequences using the notes A,C,E,G or A,C#,E,G then these notes are all available in D minor 3rd position, and I can't see how 4th comes into it.
Or are you suggesting the 3 and 4 draw chord with a double bend on the 3 and a single bend on the 4? I can play that after about 10 seconds' effort (and I think Buddha suggested we practise it until we master it), but it's easier to noodle, and that one chord is hardly playing in 4th.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Nov 11, 2017 2:37 AM
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WinslowYerxa
1475 posts
Nov 11, 2017
8:41 AM
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OK, Andrew.
First, you're assuming minor because it's third position. But you can play third position major. I do it, Jason Ricci does it, and we both teach it.
But whether it's major or minor, when the V chord comes up - let's assume a C harp and that third position is therefore the key of D - and it's an A7 chord (A, C#, E G) sure, it look simple enough to simply bend Draw 1 or Draw 4 for the C#, but almost nobody does it?
Why? Because they're unfamiliar with outlining an A major chord on a C harp.
Now, the V chord takes up only one of the 12 bars in a 12-bar blues. So players tend to do what's easy and familiar for that brief moment in the chord progression. And that doesn't tend to include working that bent Draw 1 and 4 into the picture. Or a whole lot of other possibilities.
But there's a whole lot they could be doing if they'd just get familiar with playing an A7 chord on a C-harp.
One way to do that is to just focus on that one chord - essentially playing in 4th position to give themselves a chance to explore it. Once they've had a chance to develop some ideas and licks, they can start integrating those into the V chord in a third-position tune.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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Andrew
1718 posts
Nov 11, 2017
8:49 AM
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My question was, how do you play an A7 chord on a C harp?
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Andrew.
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WinslowYerxa
1476 posts
Nov 11, 2017
9:32 AM
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You don't play the full chord because that's not possible..
You outline it and play fragments.
You incorporate chord notes into lines - riffs, licks, scale patterns.
you arpeggiate, jumping between chord notes.
Here's a little jam I just did to exemplify.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Nov 11, 2017 9:45 AM
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timeistight
2239 posts
Nov 11, 2017
9:41 AM
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"how do you play an A7 chord on a C harp?"
1', 2+, 2, 3", 4', 5+, 6+, 6, 7OD, 8+, 9+, 10, 10OD (C#, E, G, A, C#, E, G, A, C#, E, G, A, C#)
Mix and match to taste.
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Andrew
1719 posts
Nov 11, 2017
10:15 AM
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Fragments of A that are also fragments of D.
It's not really position playing, is it.
That was my point.
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Andrew.
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timeistight
2240 posts
Nov 11, 2017
10:18 AM
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A7 is a pretty common chord in Tunes in C (where it's the VI7), G (II7), and F (III7) as well as D (V7) so you might need to play it in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 12th position.
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hvyj
3498 posts
Nov 11, 2017
2:42 PM
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The concept of bending down a half step to get a tone that is a half step sharp is a concept that permeates multiple position playing. Sticking with a C harp:
Winslow uses the example of bending draw 4 down a half step to to get C# (half step sharp of the 4 blow note).
Say you are playing a C harp in A minor (4th position). Root is draw 6, minor 7th is blow 6. But say you are playing a tune in A HARMONIC minor and need major 7. Then bend draw 6 down a half step and you've got it.
Playing C harp in E minor (5th position). Need major 7? Root is blow 8 and minor 7th is draw 8 in the high register. Blow bend on blow 8 and you get major 7.
Or playing Dorian in 5th position and need major 6? Minor 6th is blow 4. Draw 4 is minor 7th. So, draw bend on draw 4 and you get MAJOR 6th.
Or if you are playing 5th position and you need major 2nd? Bend draw 2 down a half step and you can get it.
Or playing in 3rd position, blow 4 is minor 7th and draw 4 is root. So, draw 4 bent a half step is major 7.
When we bend, we generally think of it as FLATTENING the note that is being bent down. BUT that flat note also serves as an enharmonic SHARP note, which is easy to overlook. To be fluent in multiple positions, you really need to be aware of the SHARPS you can play by bending DOWN to the enharmonic flat.
This is not how most of us think, but it is a conceptually important to an understanding how to get around effectively in multiple positions (and why you may want to be bothered with it). Btw, I never learned to OB, which is why I gravitated to learning multiple position playing.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 12, 2017 8:17 PM
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WinslowYerxa
1477 posts
Nov 11, 2017
5:14 PM
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Why would it not be position playing when the band is in A and you're playing a C harmonica in A? That's what I did in the track I posted earlier.
Yes, if you're playing in third position and you play the V chord, that in itself is not fourth position, and I'm not arguing that it is.
All I'm saying is that by exploring fourth position, you can develop stuff you can later use when the V chord comes up in third position.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Nov 11, 2017 5:18 PM
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The Iceman
3388 posts
Nov 12, 2017
7:51 AM
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One whole point to position playing is to increase one's understanding of where ALL the notes live in the harmonica. This opens the door to different ways to approach a song or improv, moving juicy "bends" to different scale degrees depending on the position, opening up more avenues of musical expression.
It also opens the door to understanding music theory better - we can all agree that this helps one musically in expressing what is in their hearts on an instrument.
Understanding leads to decoding sentences such as the following....." by exploring fourth position, you can develop stuff you can later use when the V chord comes up in third position." At first glance, there are a lot of "numbers" in that sentence - "fourth" "V" "third", describing different musical entities. This is confusing at first and makes one's brain hurt trying to understand what is being said, but it's really not as hard as one would fear, as long as one dips their toes into this type of theory banter.
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The Iceman
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ridge
713 posts
Nov 12, 2017
8:03 AM
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My mentality behind position playing is that it opens up possibilities that may have otherwise been not realized without adjusting my perception of what could be played over a particular chord change.
Treating chord changes like key changes is probably a very rudimentary way to handle this, but I've found that it makes enough sense to me that I can use it as a learning tool.
For example, I've been wanting to improve my versatility in 1st position with the goal being to take a lot of my 2nd position knowledge and transpose that into 1st. Normally when I play 2nd position I treat the I,IV,V changes as 2nd, 1st, and 3rd position respectively.
Taking that same formula, I realized that in 1st the I,IV,V change would be 1st, 12th, and 2nd respectively. At that point I realized I already knew how to play 2/3 of the chord changes and started to approach 1st differently than I had in the past.
Now granted this isn't the best example as playing blues in 1st like you would in 2nd is going to require good control of 4 and 6 overblow to get certain licks to transpose exactly. I find this kind of exercise to be fun and challenging; helping me stave off feeling stagnant with my own playing and giving me lots to practice when I have a few moments.
I'll drop a video in here to further illustrate.
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Ridge's YouTube
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Flbl
36 posts
Nov 12, 2017
8:56 AM
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Let me dip my toe's in here, now I'm pretty lite on the theory thing, and maybe I'm just getting confused.
The reason for changing from 3rd position to 4th position on the V cord is because the number of licks are limited and have been played to death, with 4th position allowing for more creativity, and if that is true then why not play in 4th on the I cord and the IV cord as well, or is it that 4th position licks sound and play better on the V cord than the I or the IV cord.
Or other option I completely missed the point?
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WinslowYerxa
1478 posts
Nov 12, 2017
9:11 AM
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@Flbl - that's as good an answer as any.
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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The Iceman
3389 posts
Nov 12, 2017
9:34 AM
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Flbl sez "The reason for changing from 3rd position to 4th position on the V cord is because the number of licks are limited and have been played to death"
If you are a "lick based player", then you are limiting yourself to only playing what has been shown to you as you write them down in your personal "lick book".
I suggest instead of learning "licks", learn music and understand how to create "licks", thereby eliminating the self limiting thought processes that lead one to actually believe there are a limited number of licks available. Truth be told, there is no limit here - just limitations of the mind through weak musical philosophy.
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The Iceman
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hvyj
3499 posts
Nov 12, 2017
11:13 AM
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Personally, I only think in terms of positions to select which harmonica to use for a particular tune. Once I have selected which harp I will play, I select what notes I play by thinking in terms of scales, chords and arpeggios, not positions. FWIW thinking in terms of positions other than to choose which harp or harps to use doesn't make sense to me.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 12, 2017 11:20 AM
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Flbl
37 posts
Nov 12, 2017
11:48 AM
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Iceman that's a good way to put it, when i start to improvise one note seems to flow to the next until I try to throw in different licks no mater how well learned they seem to go against that flow.
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