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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
what are the notes on a C harmonica and how can I
what are the notes on a C harmonica and how can I
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1847
4333 posts
Jul 28, 2017
1:08 PM
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Ok, so what are the notes on a C harmonica and how can I remember them.
So this is surprisingly simple, we all learned this in the first grade.
So sing along with me: the one hundred thousand dollar answer. You have to sing it
No fair just reading it if you want to remember it.
A B C D E F G ONE MORE TIME A B C D E F G
I told you it was easy.
There are only 7 notes, so how hard can it be to remember them?
So lets try this… for now forget the blow notes…. it is not necessary to remember them
Lets focus on just the draw notes. ..First of all we play a C harp in G why would we do that?
That is a good question, perhaps for another day. For now just the draw notes on a C harmonica.
Since we are not at all concerned with the blow notes, lets not worry at all about the first two draw notes, you do not need to know them, just forget about them altogether. We are only concerned
With holes 3 thru 10, as a matter of fact we do not need to be concerned with holes 7 thru 10 either.
We are only concerned with holes 3 thru 6… I told you this was easy. So what are those 4 notes?
We talked earlier about using every other note. A B C D E F G so lets skip the A note
Hole three is B ..... hole 4 is D ... hole 5 is F .... and hole 6 is A
B D F A once you can remember that……… holes 6 thru 10 are exactly the same B D F A
A diatonic scale contains 7 notes, without hurting your brain you now know where four of these notes are located. They are all draw notes. Holes 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 B D F A B D F A
Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 28, 2017 1:19 PM
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1847
4334 posts
Jul 29, 2017
9:10 AM
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ok, i said that you do not need to know what notes is on the 2 nd hole inhale.
why is that? it is because you already know that. when a band calls out a slow blues in G
you reach in your harp case and pull out a C harp. "why is that"
you may not know why but you do know if you play 2 draw it will fit, it fits because it is the root note G
remember the notes on a C harmonica are A B C D E F G so lets move the G from the end and move it to the front..................... G A B C D E F
you can see clearly the 3rd note of the scale is B on the 3 hole draw .. ..that note is important also remember how we build chords every other note. G B D F
so when the band calls out a slow blues in G the bass player will play the root the guitar willplay the notes B D F to sound good we want to play the same notes as the band is playing.
you should be able to memorize these 5 notes we are still missing 2 notes.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 29, 2017 9:12 AM
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snowman
278 posts
Jul 31, 2017
10:22 AM
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I hate to say this, but i wish more players learned "basic theory" -I hope u continue to learn how to play harp better and also continue to learn why it sounds good or bad—So what I hope is, that u learn is;
USING THE NUMBER SYSTEM
What the I II III or bIII iv v vi vii bvii so;
The C scale is ; CDEFGAB
---------------------1234567
C harp in “first pos” using numbers, instead of notes--- use diagram above
HOLES 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
blow------1 3 5 1 3 5 1 3 5 1
draw------2 5 7 2 4 6 7 2 4 6
Note; Blow 123----456----789 are all the same
Draw 3456 -----789 10 are all the same
Draw 1 and 4 are always the same no
Draw 2 is always the same as blow 3
The basic C chord is [C E G] the top of the harp [blow] is a repeating C chord like this;
CEG CEG CEG CEG C this only applies to first position----- If u learn the numbers ‘ which is easier’ u can apply this to any harp
In basic blues you’ve heard 1 4 5 chords; so in G---- with C harp ‘ second position’
the notes still go; ceg ceg etc on top---- --but the “C harp” now has this layout----
for the “ Key of G”
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 --- hole
4 6 1 4 6 1 4 6 1 4 --- blow
5 1 3 5 b7 2 3 5 b7 2---draw
major chords not minor -are made from the 1 3 5 notes
so in blues we have ;
I chord IV chord V chord
NOW SINCE U HAVE MEMORIZED #’S INSTEAD OF NOTES -IN CROSS HARP U NOTICE ON DRAW, U HAVE
THE draw 2 3 4 u have the I chord in G-the most important one—home base etc—
So when yr chugging on blow n draw down there u are Basically bouncing on the I chord [in cross harp]
THANK GOODNESS FOR U RAN OUT OF TIME
“LEARN THE NUMBER SYSTEM IN 1ST POS AND 2ND POS ‘CROSS HARP TO START FORGET THE NOTES---
LEARN THE NUMBERS ON MINOR CHORDS AND WHY A MAJOR 3RD SOUNDS BAD IN MINOR ETC
Last Edited by snowman on Aug 01, 2017 7:09 AM
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1847
4343 posts
Jul 31, 2017
11:06 AM
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snowman, thanks for chiming in. i was going to cease and desist, no one cares for this stuff too much.
i agree the # systems is the way to go. but first it is best to learn the note names.
this is just for the C harp all others will be the # system. there is a method to the madness.
you only have to remember the 3rd note of the scale is on the 3 draw
and that it is a B note. not too hard
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SuperBee
4849 posts
Jul 31, 2017
2:20 PM
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Man, I figured you were doing a series.
Like I agree with you, it's good to learn this. Made a big difference to me when I learned the notes on my harp, and as snowman said, learning to think in terms of the scale in different position
But I figured the idea was to break it down in simple chunks. Build knowledge over time.
Impatience is what stops a lot of folks from progress I suspect
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timeistight
2165 posts
Jul 31, 2017
4:01 PM
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1847, snowman, SuperBee: I applaud you all for trying to up the knowledge level. Trust that someone will read something here and have a breakthrough of understanding.
As for "the best way to learn": I don't think it matters. In fact, I think everyone should learn all the ways. Learn the notes, learn the intervals, learn the scale degrees, learn to spell chords, learn melodies, learn chord progressions. It's all just different ways of looking at the same thing and you never know when something is going to click into place and clarify things for you.
The more different ways I've learned to see music, the better I hear it.
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STME58
2012 posts
Aug 01, 2017
6:05 AM
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I created the spreadsheet a while ago and I have posted it before. It seems appropriate in this thread. You can select a key and it will give you a graphic representation of where all the notes, bends, overblows and overdraws are on that key Richter harp. You can the slect a mode, major, minor, blues ect. and it will highlight the notes in that mode on that harp. I have found it useful for looking at a piece of sheet music and deciding what harp to play it on. spreadsheet
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snowman
279 posts
Aug 01, 2017
7:33 AM
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I should have added IF U
'START TO SLOWLY MEMORIZE THIS TYPE OF STUFF" ---
It will make things much easier later---much easier--
I made diagrams of a 10 hole diatonic in 1st pos 2nd and third pos ----using #s---I printed copies and at lunch or during morning coffee etc -Id study
DID THIS ON N OFF FOR YEARS ---STILL DO
I agree take yr time -learning is fun, not torture
TAKE YR TIME
If u learn any theory as a harp player yr ahead of the game-
many times -we don't get asked to "sit in" for a second time is-[1]improper playing over a singer or someone elses lead [2] thay tell u the chord changes and u have a blank look [3] the last song u played with them, was a minor song and you hit draw 3 in cross harp and held it for 30 seconds --because u have no BASIC theory knowledge
TAKE YR TIME But start now
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1847
4348 posts
Aug 01, 2017
7:50 AM
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" a minor song and you hit draw 3 in cross harp"
this can be just as bad in a major key as well.
its sort of where i am headed with this.
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1847
4351 posts
Aug 01, 2017
11:53 AM
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The notes on a C harmonica are
C E G C E G C E G C “TOP PLATE” EVERY OTHER NOTE FROM THE SCALE
It’s a 3 note chord. However we want to play blues. The blues is a 4 note chord.
D G B D F A B D F A “BOTTOM PLATE”
So the band leader calls out… slow blues in G … you reach in to your harp satchel and grab a C harp.
Why do you do that?..... he said key of G
Have you ever wondered what notes the other instruments are playing?.... Why would I care what notes they are playing, I haven’t a clue what notes I am playing. I’ll just blow in to this whistle here and hope for the best.
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Grey Owl
801 posts
Aug 01, 2017
12:25 PM
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Interesting thread! I need to learn more. I have to make words from the musical notes to make it stick. So the draw plate on a c harp is Do Good By Doing Favours Always, By Doing Favours Always. It helps me anyway.
YouTube
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1847
4352 posts
Aug 01, 2017
12:58 PM
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grey owl...as emeril lagasse would say..... BAM
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1847
4353 posts
Aug 01, 2017
3:27 PM
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Ok, in a slow blues the chord quickly changes to the four chord. We are in effect changing keys.
The 4 chord in the key of G is a C7 just like the previous chord it is only 4 notes.
If we know what 3 notes are on the blow plate ….. C E G it should be obvious, you can play any one of them or all of them if you so desire. If you do that I can personally guaranty you will sound just like big walter. Or I will give you your money back, every thin dime. So to play the blues we need a 4 th noteTo add to the C chord. On the draw plate they were lined up in order … 2 draw 3 draw 4 draw 5 draw
G B D F ….. however, the blow plate is missing a note. We only have 3 notes. C E G
Hmm… I was supposed to remember something here… I forget. Oh I remember I only need to remember one thing, that the 3 hole draw is a B
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1847
4355 posts
Aug 02, 2017
7:55 AM
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To play blues music requires one note from the scale to be altered.
It is the 7 th note of the scale in C
C d e f g a and B ……….. the B note is the 7 th note it must be lowered
So when the band is playing a slow blues when they switch to the 4 chord
The bass will play the root note C the guitar will play a 3 note grip E G Bb
Pop quiz… where is the note B located on a C harmonica?
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Honkin On Bobo
1455 posts
Aug 02, 2017
9:44 AM
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Thanks for putting this together 1847 and snowman. The expression "learning theory" can mean so many things. Some of the more in- depth stuff can make the hobbyist player's eyes start to glaze over. I had the note memorization on a C harp down pretty quick (I mean it ain't that hard to memorize those 20 holes, especially given the repetitive note layout). But I continue to struggle with the big picture, or more succinctly, how is this gonna help me in a playing situation. You guys are starting to touch on that in some of the latter posts.
I've already picked up a few nuggets. Keep it up. Great thread.
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Tommy the Hat
676 posts
Aug 02, 2017
11:05 AM
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My thoughts thus far pretty much mirror what Honkin just wrote. The only other thought I've had...but have been hesitant to post because I figured if I wait it out the answer will probably, eventually, be addressed in this thread...was this. As Honkin said, the C harp isn't too hard to remember and neither are any of the other 11 key harps as far as the blow notes. But I haven't grasped a formula yet for the draw notes throughout the various harp keys. I got C...but the rest? nope.
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Tommy
My YouTube vocal covers
----
Facebook
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1847
4356 posts
Aug 02, 2017
11:23 AM
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This is what. where I come from they call .. “the secret shit”
it is what the Devil told robert johnson on that fateful day at the crossroads… at precisely two minutes to midnight
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timeistight
2166 posts
Aug 02, 2017
1:33 PM
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"As Honkin said, the C harp isn't too hard to remember and neither are any of the other 11 key harps as far as the blow notes. But I haven't grasped a formula yet for the draw notes throughout the various harp keys. I got C...but the rest? nope."
The draw notes are re, so, ti, re, fa, la, ti, re, fa, la -- or 2, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6, 7, 2, 4, 6 if you prefer scale degrees in the harmonica key. For example, an A harps draw notes are B, E, G#, B, D, F#, G#, B, D, F#.
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timeistight
2167 posts
Aug 02, 2017
1:51 PM
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If you prefer to think in second position, the draw notes are a second inversion 9 chord in the second position key. A 9 chord is spelled root, 3, 5, b7, 9; second inversión means that the bottom note is the five instead of the root.
Let's use a D harp as an example this time. Second position on a D harp is the key of A. Thinking of the key of A, the draw notes on D harp are E (the fifth), A (the root), C# (the third), E (the fifth), G (the flat seven), B (the ninth), C# (the third), E (the fifth), G (the flat seven), and B (the ninth).
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SuperBee
4857 posts
Aug 02, 2017
3:11 PM
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Yep that's how I think of them. Second position, holes 2-6 R 3 5 b7 9 and the 1 is the 5th below, 7- 10 are 3 5 b7 9.
And then 3rd position draw notes
R 4 6 R/O b3 5 6 R/O b3 5
Probably better to just learn the scale and how to play some arpeggios for 3rd/2nd position V chord
Anyway, if you learn the CHarp and learn note names and scale degrees, intervals and chord tones, everything except note names still applies to every standard tuned harp, and you can quickly work out the note name from the other info anyway.
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hvyj
3407 posts
Aug 02, 2017
4:43 PM
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THE NUMBER SYSTEM is how I learned multiple positions.
Ten hole blow = root in 1st position, 4 in 2d position, 7b in third position, 3b in 4th position, 6b in 5th position, 5 in 12th position.
Three hole draw, bent a half step = 7b in 1st position, 3b in 2d position, 6b in 3rd position, 7 in 4th position, 5b in 5th position, 4 in 12th position.
ETC. I sometimes have to think for a minute in 12th position because I don't use it that often, but in positions 1 through 5 I pretty much know which hole and which bend are what degree of the scale in each of those positions. It comes from practicing different scales in those positions. You start by identifying everywhere the root note for each position can be played on the harp.
I thought I was hot shit until a bandleader I work with regularly started to refuse to communicate with me in degrees of the scale and would only tell me note names in letters in an effort to make me learn to spell my scales. I can do that in the keys I play most frequently, but overall it's still a work in progress. If I wasn't being so lazy about it, I'd wake up every morning 15 minutes early and write out all 12 major scales in letter names on paper several times until I was able to do it from memory. I already know which of those notes get flatted to play in each mode and in the different types of minor keys, so once I learn to spell all 12 major scales from memory I'll be in good shape. Then I'll also be able to spell chords with no problem.
@timeistight: I've never heard anyone else talk about it before, but I agree that thinking in terms of chord inversions is very useful for playing diatonic harp. ALSO, being aware of extension tones has great utility, especially on the high end of the harp.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 02, 2017 4:59 PM
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1847
4358 posts
Aug 02, 2017
5:37 PM
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" Some of the more in- depth stuff can make the hobbyist player's eyes start to glaze over."
part of what i was trying to do here is introduce simple concepts to prevent the eyes glazing over syndrome.
however my eyes are beginning to glaze over.
85 percent of blues harmonica is cross harp. trying to focus on that aspect and keep it as simple as possible.
it is not necessary to delve too deeply. just a little is enough
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SuperBee
4859 posts
Aug 02, 2017
6:28 PM
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I agree 1847.
Barrett used to do this stuff as 'tip of the day'.
He'd introduce 1 concept, and maybe an exercise to help you learn it, then come back with the next part a day or 2 later.
It's slow but actually builds knowledge. Unlike the approach of lots of info, none of which gets in.
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timeistight
2168 posts
Aug 02, 2017
9:28 PM
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*** WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! ****
Not for "hobbyists" or those with easily glazed eyes.
@hvyj: You don't need to memorize all 12 major scales. Just learn the circle of fifths and the order that sharps and flats are added:
C major: no sharps or flats -- C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
G major: one sharp (F) -- G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
D major: two sharps (F, C) -- D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
A major: three sharps (F, C, G) -- A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A
E major: four sharps (F, C, G, D) -- E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E
B major: five sharps (F, C, G, D, A) -- B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, B
F# major: six sharps (F, C, G, D, A, E) -- F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#, F#
C# major: seven sharps (F, C, G, D, A, E, B) -- C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#
And the flats:
F major: one flat (B) -- F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F
Bb major: two flats (B, E) -- Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb
Eb major: three flats (B, E, A) -- Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb
Ab major: four flats (B, E, A, D) -- Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab
Db major: five flats (B, E, A, D, G) -- Db, Eb, F, Gb, C, Db,
Gb major: six flats (B, E, A, D, G, C) -- Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb
Cb major: seven flats (B, E, A, D, G, C, F) -- Cb, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb
See the patterns?
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SuperBee
4864 posts
Aug 02, 2017
9:36 PM
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It's a great tool. Introduced my colleague to it yesterday. He is learning piano from Alfred's method books. It took him about a day to get past his active disinterest in theory and become intrigued. I knew he would, he's a programmer. He'll never be able to resist getting inside the code.
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STME58
2014 posts
Aug 03, 2017
12:36 AM
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Timistight, this exercise I wrote a while back is very similar to what you posted. It develops the patterns you listed using only a piano keyboard.
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 03, 2017 7:33 PM
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timeistight
2169 posts
Aug 03, 2017
1:36 AM
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@STME58: Dropbox says "The folder '/Public' doesn't exist."
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Lou
13 posts
Aug 03, 2017
7:47 AM
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Great info 1847 I'm just getting started playing the harp (I play Mandolin) and have been winging it with the band and it sucks hitting the wrong note/notes just breaking the harp out at practice so far my timing and tone are OK but I really need to learn this basics and keeping it simple is perfect for my glazed over eyes. Your first couple of posts will keep busy for weeks !
Thanks
Lou
Last Edited by Lou on Aug 03, 2017 7:48 AM
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mastercaster
208 posts
Aug 03, 2017
11:15 AM
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My 2 cents worth ..
Make Bandstand communication easier by using our fingers as numbers denoting the key ... by the amount of sharps or flats in it.
This is communicating the song key without talking , shouting or confusion
It sure helps sometimes .. The singer or leader has to hold their fingers in the air .. up or down ... everyone knows where they are going ....
Sharp key's : fingers pointing up
G = 1 finger up ( 1# in the scale )
D = 2 fingers up ( 2# in the scale )
A = 3 fingers up ( 3# in the scale )
and so on ...
for flats : fingers pointing down
F = 1 finger down
Bb = 2 fingers down
Eb = 3 fingers down
Ab - 4 finger down
and so on
Oh Ya ... C the natural key ..
make a C shape with u'r hand , or a O , or hold your hand horisontal ...
personal choice Lol
Bandstand communication made easy ; )
Last Edited by mastercaster on Aug 03, 2017 11:18 AM
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Ollie
6 posts
Aug 03, 2017
11:30 AM
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Just wanted to say thank you for all this theory. I'm trying to take on board as much of it as I can. I've written myself a little flashcard with the 2nd position scale degrees and note names for C harp.
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dougharps
1537 posts
Aug 03, 2017
11:51 AM
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@mastercaster
I learned this up for sharps down for flats communication from a bass player in a band I played in a while ago. The leader frequently changed the keys of songs, so I couldn't rely on a list. The bass player would flash the key.
Since I knew the circle of 5ths, without learning anything extra I already knew the order of keys when adding sharps or flats.
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Doug S.
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1847
4359 posts
Aug 03, 2017
1:13 PM
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Have you ever gone out somewhere and the band has a harp player
He starts off sounds pretty good, then all of a sudden something is wrong and
You just can’t quite put your finger on it?
Let’s look at the 4 chord. The band is playing C E G and Bb
And the harmonica is playing a B… …hey it sounded fine just a minute ago.
3 hole draw. But we have a simple solution here… we can bend the note a little bit and voila
We are now in tune with the rest of the band. The trick is to not release the note.
“Well not just yet” if you can recall the other notes just repeat …. B D F A
it is readily apparent that we have another land mine on the 7 hole draw, this is a bit more tricky, we cannot bend this note to its proper pitch.
It is like a dog shit in your front yard,
And you go out in your bare feet to retrieve the morning paper.
Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 03, 2017 1:18 PM
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STME58
2015 posts
Aug 03, 2017
7:34 PM
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Timeistight, I believe I fixed the link.
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timeistight
2171 posts
Aug 03, 2017
8:04 PM
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Nice!
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Tuckster
1642 posts
Aug 03, 2017
10:09 PM
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I see that going clockwise around the circle the 7th of the scale becomes the 3rd of the next scale. G's 7th is F#,D's 3rd is F# and the 7th gets sharped-C#. A's 3rd is C# etc. always adding a sharp on the 7th as you go around.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Aug 03, 2017 10:12 PM
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mastercaster
209 posts
Aug 04, 2017
1:05 AM
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@dougharps
My learning experience was in the mid 80's, our band leader pushing me to learn by calling our songs in sharps or flats only , no key names ...
Was an excellent learning expereince that's very easy to master, and, i wish more performers understood !
Of course being a bar band we mostly played in only 5 key's .. tbh Lol
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Andrew
1603 posts
Aug 04, 2017
6:07 AM
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1847 wrote "you only have to remember the 3rd note of the scale is on the 3 draw
and that it is a B note. not too hard "
that's of course the 2nd position scale, lol!
Yeah, it can be mind-bending if you approach it wrong.
By all means learn the notes on a C harp mechanically: -
CEGCEGCEGC
DGBDFABDFA
but don't try it with your Ab harp, unless you've got an eidetic memory! I suppose the numbers are worth remembering, but I've never bothered. Play by ear.
Don't confuse the theory that you can write on paper with theory that you have to know to perform - you'll just blow your mind that way - they are two different animals.
"The band is playing C E G and Bb"
You'd better get ready to play in 12th position, then!
(although I'll grant you that I,IV7,I is quite nice, but also quite rare)
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 05, 2017 2:31 AM
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1847
4360 posts
Aug 04, 2017
7:55 AM
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And 47 also wrote……
85 percent of blues harmonica is cross harp. trying to focus on that aspect and keep it as simple as possible.
Yes we all play by ear, the problem can be that some of the notes do not fit
And it can sometimes take years to realize that, and to be honest some folks
Never figure it out. Ever.
The original conversation was about trying to show people that had no inclination
Just how easy it is to remember where the notes on a C harmonica are located.
And to show how this can be useful. There is no need to learn the notes on an Ab harmonica.
We have another method that is just as simple to learn once we have the notes on a C harp memorized.
Perhaps I was not explicit, the notes C E G and Bb comprise the 4 chord.
No need for 12 th position,. just cross harp for now.
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STME58
2016 posts
Aug 04, 2017
8:16 AM
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Andrew writes "but don't try it with your Ab harp, unless you've got an eidetic memory!" This really resonates with me as about a month ago I was trying to sight read a piece in Ab on an Ab harp with a string group. It did not go very well!
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Mirco
521 posts
Aug 04, 2017
9:58 AM
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Music theory pays off huge dividends. I think that all harp players, if you intend to play with others, should learn a bare minimum of music theory. I would recommend Michael Rubin's YouTube series (and book) or the Music Theory series of videos on bluesharmonica.com.
I think the bare minimum is:
1) note layout on a C harmonica
2) the notes of the chords in 2nd position (GBDF, CEGBb, DF#AC) and where they are found on the harp
A 12 bar blues is easy to navigate on harmonica. But if a player learns theory, they'll be ready when the band leader calls a song with a sharp 5 (like Thrill is Gone) or something with half-step chromaticism (like Stormy Monday). I know too many harp players that sit those tunes out or just muddle through the changes without playing something that really fits.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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Andrew
1606 posts
Aug 04, 2017
10:16 AM
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I don't want to risk crashing on threads that I don't understand, but any harp player who really wants to learn music theory needs to buy a keyboard.
Just in case it hasn't been reiterated enough yet.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 04, 2017 10:17 AM
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1847
4361 posts
Aug 04, 2017
12:47 PM
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tuckster....
very astute observation... go to the head of the class.
this may warrant a new thread... not sure i want to go there.
Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 04, 2017 12:49 PM
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