It is not entirely clear but I thought he was discussing the tritone interval between the major third and the flat (dominant) seventh and lowering the flat seventh to what is referred to as a harmonic or blues seventh which is almost a quarter tone flatter than an equal tempered seventh, (and which we can get on harp by bending the draw 5 in second position). That's not what the notes on the staff illustrated, but that's how I interpreted what he was saying.
BTW, difference tones or ghost notes are also known as Tartini tones.
As I understand blue note theory, the "blue third" is played a quarter tone flat and a "blues seventh" is played approximately three quarters flat. Intonation of the flat five is variable. This stuff is very difficult to research and I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but that's how I understand it to be.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 06, 2017 12:46 PM
@piro39: Yeah, that's what I said. A blue third is a quarter tone flat. A minor third is a half tone or half step flat relative to a major third. So, yeah, the blue third is higher.
From what I can figure out the blues seventh is more prevalent in vocal melody than instrumental, but I don't really know.
@1847: I was not listening to what was being said carefully enough. Btw, once a keyboard player told me he was taught to flat the 5th on the way down and play a perfect 5th on the way up. But I dunno--he's the only one I ever heard say that.
What is interesting is that, on diatonic, when you bend "to the floor", that note will be approximately 1/4 tone (25% flat) of the true pitch. Did harmonica define the "blue note" or is it just reinforcing this idea? ---------- The Iceman
i'm not sure i understand the question... you're referring to the tritone? ..so going past that note to the floor i would think would be a wrong note. wouldn't the flat 5 be above the floor slightly?
other instruments can vary pitch.. slide guitar, vocals etc.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 09, 2017 8:57 AM
1847....I am not talking about the tritone, but am commenting on the mini thread above that discusses the "blue note" - whether it be that minor 3rd or the blues dominant 7th. These notes were described as being 25 cents flat of the actual true pitch.
Bending "to the floor" on diatonic also gives you a tone that is approx. 25 cents (1/4 tone) flat to the true pitch.
Now, please reread my question and see if it makes better sense. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 09, 2017 11:51 AM
@Iceman These notes are so much easier to find on instruments with variable pitch, I think blues harp helped. But I'd be willing to give the credit to horn players first.
I believe that the blue note would be a pitch BELOW the minor 3rd or dominant 7th. Blues exists at pitch, slightly below it and that playground that exists between these two points. It is never something that is above a pitch (or sharp).
This probably comes from that "moaning" sound the voice created during early singing by those whose heritage hails from a country that was used for slave importing into the south. The moaning is always below the true pitch of a note - gives it a "sad" feel. ---------- The Iceman
the blue third is below the major third, but above the minor third.
on draw 5... the minor 7th... we are already playing the correct note and it can not be raised...
ok fine.. jason will prove me wrong.. but the rest of us humans.. lol. cannot.
but we can drop the pitch a little bit... bending the 4 draw "the flat 5"... then dropping the pitch of 5 draw..... the flat 7 ...... seems to be what he is describing in the video.
the harmonica can do this, also the slide guitar, not sure how many other instruments can.
Firstly, thanks for posting the video, that was fascinating. I'd heard the 'banned by the church' fable too. I suppose it was a good story :) Anything that's banned has a special spice.
On the blue notes: we had a discussion on the beginner's thread a while ago where someone was trying to learn the blue 3rd from some teacher's vids (Adam and Tom Leckie) and couldn't reconcile with what they were saying with what they were playing. Turns out the were both playing the 'Blue 3rd' as a flattened minor 3rd, not major 3rd. On other vids they were playing a flattened major 3rd.
Just shows me that there's the 'theory', then there's what people actually play.
It always stuck me that a feature of the blue notes - when I hear them in songs not blues harp teaching vids - is that they are mobile, somewhat ambiguous and cover a range, not static and well-defined.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 09, 2017 10:55 PM
Dave Barrett did a transcription book of Sugar Blue's IN YOUR EYES album (the book is now out of print) and pointed out that SB played the third a quarter tone flat. An excellent blues guitar player I know also does this. BUT what they are doing is playing this quarter tone flat "blue third" as a substitute for the major third. So, when Iceman talks about the blue note being in a range under the minor third, that concept is not inconsistent with having a quarter tone flat third as the reference pitch in lieu of a major third. At least that's how it seems to me.
I have a hard enough time intonating half step bends, let alone microtones. But on those occasions when I've managed to hit a properly intonated quarter tone flat third against the I chord, wow--that note really sings. BUT it doesn't sound very good against the IV chord since the minor third is the dominant seventh of that chord.
My college education majoring in music in 1970's taught that church did ban that interval in religious music...I have no reason to doubt my instructors nor their textbooks. Blue third pitched above a minor 3rd makes absolutely no musical sense whatsoever.Please offer evidence or examples if you disagree. ---------- The Iceman
Yes. Spoonful defines minor 3rd interval. If you are just below minor 3rd true pitch and allow it to rise up to true pitch, you will hear that "blue" effect. Now, try starting above that true minor 3rd pitch and dropping it down. What does that sound like? Not very bluesy to my educated ears. ---------- The Iceman
If the tritone was banned, why does it occur in liturgical music, as Neely's video demonstrates? And why does the phrase "diabolus in música" not appear in print until the 18th century?
As to the "spoonful" riff, when you play it on guitar you fret the minor third (G in the key of E) and bend it up toward the major third (G#). The chording instruments are playing dominant (E7) chords -- not minors.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 10, 2017 10:11 AM
I, like Iceman, recieved instruction from my music teachers in the 70's that the tritone was banned by the church, and I have generaly accepted that. The video above presents a reasonable argument that this may not be the case. It is possible that my instructors were wrong about this, after all, thier expertise was in music, not history.
The idea that the tritone was called "diabolus in música" in a manner similar to the way we say "the devil is in the details" seems credible. Most who use the details phrase do not fear a literal demonic possesion as a result of working with details, and it is possible the musical term has a similar meaning. On the other hand, I have known people who seemed to have a real fear that certain types of music could literally invite demons. It is interesting either way and I am sure there are music and church historians than have a good handle on what may have actually occured with ideas about the tritone and the devil. It takes a long time for good scholarship to be heard over popular culture though. Just look at this with respect to stories in American history of chopping down cherry trees or riding though the streets shouting "the British are coming".
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 10, 2017 10:33 AM
Very early on, as music and its theory were evolving, the church did ban this interval....not forever, just initially. As music developed, it constantly pushed against the rules. Attitudes changed. Tritone became easier on the ears and rules changed. It's fascinating stuff and began in Ancient Greece.
A minor 3rd played against a dominant 7th chord sounds just fine and even "hip"...defined as a +9 against the chord. (Think Foxy Lady Hendrix chord). The minor 3rd in this situation also sounds great when played below true pitch (25 cents flat) and has room to rise up for moaning effect. This is a definite "bluesy" sound. ---------- The Iceman
@timeistight A lot easier to control with a guitar string--and you can do it all on one string, in a moveable form. Contrast that with a harmonica, where you are drawing the major note DOWN a semitone and then raise it a hair. Hair raising. Lot easier on fiddle!
Oh good, I prefer the idea that it was banned, so I'm going with that. As they say, never let the facts get in the way of a good story. (I don't know what the facts are btw).
As for the blue 3rd being below the minor 3rd - Gasp! I think all the books say the other one. Spoonful is simply minor isn't it? So bending up to the minor 3rd seems like the right thing to do. But in terms of naming the parts, is that called a blue 3rd?
I thought the blue 3rd was for giving a slightly bluesy-moany-sad sound to otherwise major-feel blues songs. So, slightly flattened major 3rd.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 10, 2017 12:36 PM
@1847: in melodic minor the 6th and 7th are played flat when descending and major when ascending. In "jazz melodic minor" the 6th and 7th are always played major.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 10, 2017 1:22 PM
On 15 March 2016, the web site Submediant published an article positing that Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz had proposed a ban on the tritone, a musical interval between three whole notes, calling the interval “satanic” and part of the devil’s music:
Seeking to earn the confidence of evangelical voters and remain in contention for the Republican nomination ahead of Tuesday’s primaries, Ted Cruz has promised to rid all music of the “tritone,” a dissonant interval long associated with the devil.
Speaking to a crowd of supporters in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, one of five events the Cruz campaign scheduled in that state on the eve of its pivotal primary, the junior United States Senator from Texas condemned over five hundred years of musical practice for what he referred to as its “indulgent acquiescence to Satan’s favorite sound.”
“A pair of tones separated by three consecutive whole steps may at first seem perfectly harmless,” Cruz said, “but when played together or in melodic succession they pose a direct threat to the moral fabric of our great nation.”
Yes, that's the chord, a dominant seventh chord with a raised 9--in the audio which will play in the video window below (some of which seems to be live video!), Jimi is in F, and the chord is F A C Eb G#--boy, casual guitar virtuoso much?
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 10, 2017 8:14 PM
Just to say that Wikipedia says, "...stories that singers were excommunicated or otherwise punished by the Church for invoking this interval are likely fanciful."
Well, that's Wikipedia and this is a youtube video so pinches of salt all round. Can anyone provide a reference saying it was banned? Other than hearsay.
I remember as a boy there were stories doing the rounds about playing records backwards and invoking things - hysterical responses mostly. Was it Led Zep tracks? I can't remember. That was in the heady days before the internet, and before the term 'urban legend' was coined. All stories were true because they happened to "my mate's sister" or similar.
My cousin's friend Spikey was excommunicated because he sang a tritone in church. No word of a lie.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 11, 2017 12:52 AM
In regards to the Church and the tritone, the tritone was forbidden in the middle ages and renaissance. This was a period of our civilization in which music was still being explored. As music became more secular and not subject to the total control of the churches, this rule was bent and broken as composers began to push the boundaries. What was "ugly" to the ears of a generation became acceptable to the ears of the next through this process. This was how music began to evolve. Perhaps the final frontier was established in 20th Century music, in which composers pushed the rules so far that they broke many completely (in 12 Tone Row composition, for example). At this point, the public couldn't relate any longer and the quest to evolve/push music forward in this direction ceased. This is one reason why the most extreme of these 20th Century compositions in classical music are very rarely played in concert any longer. They just don't engage the listener and are more like an exercise in extremism.
As I've said, the history of music, beginning with the Greeks and their Modes, is fascinating stuff.
The Hendrix Foxy Lady chord was totally influential in getting the white hippy generation to be intrigued and accepting of this new (to popular music) tonality. Of course, the +9 sound was already in use within the jazz community and had been for years, but this audience was very small. In a fun sense, Hendrix brought this sound to the people. I remember hearing it for the first time and being hypnotized by that sound.
The crunchiness of the Hendrix chord has nothing to do with tritones. It's tritone, between the third and seventh, is in all dominant chords including the plain-old 7 chord.
Larry, you haven't provided any evidence that the tritone was "forbidden". We'll have to file that under "Alternative Facts".
Sorry you are bringing the current Political buzz words to this forum. I hoped we would all avoid this cross pollination.
No one is still alive who existed during the Dark Ages when this stuff was current. All that is left is hundreds of music history text books and thousands of college Music History Professors who all seem to agree on this topic, and I assume they all spent a great deal of time researching before taking this stance.
How much researching have you done to date (aside from watching a video)? I studied it as a required course in College as a Music Major.
Also, nobody was talking crunchiness or tritone in regards to the Hendrix Foxy Lady chord. This discussion was totally about the +9 chord and its sound. Believe it or not, in the 18th and 19th Centuries, the +9 sound was ugly to the publics' ears and not used in compositions other than very rare and experimental ones. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 11, 2017 7:47 AM
You've got 1 video and Wikipedia (which is never considered a verified source of info - it's just an open source and anyone can add to it) and an online answer type magazine. Looked into any Music History/Theory books? There are literally thousands to choose from. There are also many local college courses that you can audit and actually debate this point with someone who has made a career out of research in this area.
It may be a stretch and preclude you spending time and effort, but if you are indeed so passionate about it, you may find it worthwhile and even eye opening to expand your research.
My "citations" have already been stated. I feel I have nothing more to offer you in the way of enlightenment on this subject. You seem to have pretty much made up your mind, as is your privilege. ---------- The Iceman
I will defer to Iceman on the history of the tritone, at least until such time as I do any actual research on the topic. The lectures I remeber most about the tritone were on how the diminished 7th chord consists of two of them and it very unstable and can be used to modulate from key to key. There are only three diminished 7th chords and if you raise any of the 4 notes of the chord a half step the chord resloves. This makes a very interesting exercise on the keyboard. Three dimished sevenths with 4 reslolution posibilities gives 12 combinations. Whith these three chords you have the posibility to go from any key to any other key in a way that makes sense to the ear. Note that I said this is what I remeber from the lectures, not that it is correct :-).
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 11, 2017 10:27 AM
Some of these are College Text Books and are considered "expensive" - $50 or more, but well worth it.
With your passion and curiosity, timeistight, I'm confident you won't balk at the price in your pursuit of knowledge. Be sure to let us know which books you buy and what you learn when you read them! ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 11, 2017 10:53 AM
There is a perverse logic to that. Sorta like how law enforcement loves terrorists. Although their love affair with gangs runs a close second. Not really OT since cynicism is part of the blues, isn't it?
STME: Raising any of the 4 notes of a diminished chord (you don't have to call them 7th chords, just diminished) will give you a half diminished chord, which is not really a chord of resolution. ---------- The Iceman
1847: I LOVED that era of Beatles Paul is dead stuff...ate it up and looked at album covers w/magnifying glass for clues, etc.
I believe the first mention of playing something backwards from them was that "Revolution #9" experimental cut.
Since we are off topic here for a minute, I am giving a shout out to the greatest band ever - The Beatles - and it has been 50 years since the release of Sgt. Pepper's...there is a new 6 CD release to celebrate, with, of course, a remixing of the original stereo release to move it closer to the mono mix that the Beatles spent so much time on (the stereo release was for the US and was rushed to market). Unfortunately, since I grew up with the original stereo release and know every guitar solo lick, drum hit, vocal harmony and crazy bit of back ground sounds by heart, the new "mix" sounds weird to me. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 11, 2017 10:45 AM
when we we kids we would experiment with things we were perhaps to young to be fooling with.
If you can just get your mind together Then come on across to me We'll hold hands an' then we'll watch the sun rise from the bottom of the sea But first
Are you experienced? Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have
Now this was all fun and games for the longest time, I would bet more than a few people here have had similar experiences, I know larry has related one once.
But one time was different.... We have all heard stories of people with near death “experience” walking to a white light.
I had something similar happen but I can assure you I was not dead. I can only explain that there was a presence in the building.
And it was pure evil. By going into the light I was somehow protected. You can chalk this off as a hallucination, but this was the most intense Experience I have ever had.
The guitarists were using 100 watt marshall amps, they took their guitars and slid them together with the strings of the necks Acting as a slide guitar. I cannot even begin to describe that sound. Now on the back of the guitars they had a mirror attached And they were reflecting a laser back into the audience.
Now this can be explained by the use of psycho active substances and perhaps a laser focused on the side of my skull But the singer was invoking the devil, I will not repeat what he said, however we live in fascinating times, and the concert Is on youtube, I will locate it and post it here.
Last Edited by