I've seen the "white light". It was pure love and had the answers to all questions. Unfortunately, as I reached out to it, totally at peace, before I could touch it, I was yanked back into my earthly body.
There are only three diminished 7th chords and if you raise any of the 4 notes of the chord a half step the chord resolves. This makes a very interesting exercise on the keyboard.
Not only on keyboard, the jazz great pat martino developed a system for playing guitar ironically called “sacred geometry”
It is based on just two chords one of which is the diminished 7th chord. The other a augmented triad. By simply raising or lowering just one note And playing its inversions up and down the neck is simply genius unlocking the entire fretboard.
Really enjoyed the Tritone video, thanks for sharing.
As far as the Blue Third goes, Adam specifically says it is between the major and minor third. See the 4:55 area of his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNKr1yVh50
It seems my understanding of what a blue 3rd is was somewhat skewed...never really gave it any thought until this discussion, so between minor and major 3rd works for me, although, truthfully, I've never with intent placed a note there when playing diatonic blues. I prefer the space between the minor 3rd and 25Cents below it, using it to simulate a moan. ---------- The Iceman
Sorry folks but we're no nearer the truth on this (the banning thing). Quoting sources is about quoting sources; it doesn't mean they are correct! That's yer basic history method.
There's an article on the radio right now I'm listing to, discussing concerns that people are quoting Hilary Mantel's fictional book Wolf Hall as actual historical fact. Because the story and characterisation is so compelling. Give it couple of centuries and it becomes authoritative fact.
As for the blue 3rd - remember I mentioned those teaching vids where they say blue 3rd but play a flattened minor 3rd! If you want to research the source, have a look on the beginners forum :) A way to resolve these contradictions, including people adamantly stating it's one thing or another, is that their definitions are simplistic. There may be a single pitch you can identify just below the major 3rd and label that - but that doesn't stop musicians playing different pitches in place of that note in real life.
Re Sgt Pepper, there's a brilliant BBC documentary by "Sgt Pepper's Musical Revolution with Howard Goodall" in which he explains how some of the songs were put together using the mastertapes and outtakes. Both from a studio-technical point of view, and a music-theory view.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08tb97f
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 12, 2017 12:27 AM
Mindthegap: Interesting points you raise. In regards to "blue 3rd", now I'd like someone to offer a sample of this "note" for analysis. As I said above, I find it very expressive when at minor 3rd and the two feet between that note and the "floor". Something sharper than a minor 3rd, but flat of a 3rd makes no musical sense to me (but everyone seems to have a different take).
So, examples anywhere?
I like your basic history method debunk. That makes sense, also, but I'm still a fan of what I learned in college.
Sgt. Pepper was recorded on a 4 track. The Beatles really pushed the studio envelope with creative solutions to putting down what was in John Lennon's head, thereby setting the stage for many of the studio innovations that followed. Listened to a Terry Gross NPR show in which a few of these magic solutions were revealed...The ending final ringing chord to Day in the Life started out as a capella Beatles voices singing the chord and ended up as a multi multi track of pianos being chord played at the same time - as piano sound died out naturally, they turned the gain up on the mics to extend it even more. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 12, 2017 6:39 AM
Iceman - I'm genuinely not devaluing what you report learning in college. In terms of assessing sources, for me something taught on a university music course carries more weight than the youtube video! I though the video was interesting though, just I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
For you, what you learned at university holds much weight. For me, the very same information is hearsay. That's just how it is.
I'm interested in the subtle work of history which, instead of trying to state 'facts' (usually impossible) demonstrates what people's view of events was at the time, and subsequently. A simple example, in the UK, would be the Wars of the Roses. They used to be discussed terms that suggested it was a clear-cut period, and people called them The Wars of the Roses at the time, whereas in reality it's a helpful historical construct made centuries later by historians to summarise a complicated period.
I'd apply the same sort of thinking to the stories I read on MBH about what musicians did/didn't do in the studio or live. What equipment they used, which embouchure and so on. These are interesting stories and valid sources, but that doesn't mean they are guaranteed correct. I read the Little Walter story and it's a great book, well researched and full of quotes, interviews and proper citations - still doesn't mean they are all true.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 12, 2017 8:19 AM
Re Sgt Pepper, yes Howard Goodall mentioned that final extended chord too! Fascinating stuff.
Another reason that I wish I'd been born a bit earlier - it must have been wonderful to gone out and bought Sgt Pepper and put in on the turntable for the first time. (That and an index-linked pension, stable job market and affordable housing....bit of politics...)
There's a recent bio film of Jimi Hendrix, where he's playing a gig just after Sgt Pepper was released and he spontaneously opens the set with a version of the first track itself, with some of the Beatles actually in the audience. The idea being he recognised it as revolutionary at once. Did this happen? So says the film.
Jimi: All is by my side (2013)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 12, 2017 8:22 AM
I was at a jam yesterday sitting outside because it was loud, A friend of mine who is a really good guitar player was sitting with me playing the mandolin. I explained the conversation we are having, and asked him, so where exactly is the blue third? He played a little bit and said…. It’s just a minor third. Yes I realize that but where exactly Was it located? Is it just a little above the flat third or perhaps a tiny bit lower. He played Some more and responded… it’s just a minor third. It was then I realized that we are making way way way to big of a deal here re: a micro tone!
A good harmonica player will properly intonate a minor third and add a bit of vibrato. Lowering the pitch slightly then raising the pitch ever so slightly. So the answer is it is both higher and lower than a minor third. Ha ha We are making way to much of a fuss, if a note sounds good it is good.
In blues, when you sing or play a note sharper (or higher) in pitch than the true one, it destroys the "bluesy feel" and just sounds off. If you sing or play a note a little flatter (or below) in pitch than the true one, it works wonderfully and sounds "bluesy".
Still would like to give a listen to a real blues 3rd - sustained if possible, but my ear can hear real fast, so even if it is a short note, it would help my understanding of this placement of a note that, at least currently, makes no sense as described as between minor and major 3rd. Always willing to adjust my understanding if new knowledge shows up.
Mindthegap - one of the smartest folk I met was a Scandinavian musician/blues scholar who worked as clerk for that Mississippi U. Blues Department (can't remember his name right now, but he is definitely a force in the blues world - plays guitar/rack harmonica and sings - does a lot of seminars in blues history).
He told me that the clerks who file papers in archives have all the power. If they don't like something that occurred in history and has been documented, they merely "misfile" this information and it gets lost into the void!
If you are not of the generation that could buy Sgt. Peppers when it was released, run home and put it on the stereo and listen with headphones, you missed out on one of the great experiences of the 60's. ---------- The Iceman
The bass note at 1:56 just sounds like a slipped finger, though. Accident, not intent.
However, I do hear it intentionally during the vocals in the second example - "that spoon that spoon" etc.
Not quite maj 3rd. Something more than minor 3rd. Sounds like a sour 3rd.
Thanks for the example. It exists. I really don't like the sound of it, though. Just sounds a bit off. Maybe that was the point? Not my thing, but apparently lotsa other folk are into it. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 12, 2017 10:08 AM
Yeah, it makes no sense harmonically. Perhaps because it is based on African tonality or vocalizing some sort of just intonated scale tone. I dunno. But I listened to a well educated guitar instructor on YouTube explain that when a guitar player bends up to the minor third when playing blues, the player should push the bend upward towards the major third just a little on the I chord. Can't remember who it was.
Obviously, this note can't be played on the piano, but some blues keyboard players will hit the flat third and very quickly slide off it and on to the major third to sort of approximate it.
I find it more interesting from an ethnomusicology perspective. Like I said before, I have a hard enough time intonating standard half step bends consistently let alone trying to play quarter tones.
In Adam's video on this, he discusses and demonstrates the 'mobile' blue 3rd. Sounds like a familiar move on the harp to me. I don't have your ear Iceman but I'd expect he starts pretty low, probably below the minor 3rd and brings it up towards major 3rd.
https://youtu.be/bxNKr1yVh50?t=433
In the Tom Leckie video, which we discussed on the beginner's forum, he was well flat. That also sounds like blues harp.
Is it important? Yes, if you are trying to learn to play.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 12, 2017 12:34 PM
Western music is concerned with exact pitch and describing notes from within this realm. 1/2 tone is the smallest division for our reference, so anything less than that bamboozles folk - especially when trying to analyze and describe it.
However, Eastern influenced (and African) music evolved primarily from vocalizing, where there are no frets or keys to define pitch. (Listen to Indian music - vocals, flute, even sitar if you don't understand micro tones, and don't think intellectually, but more emotionally).
So, this type of sour 3rd or moving note is more evocative of vocal than instrument and is very difficult to describe in terms of pitch.
My understanding of evolution of blues as music carried to this country by African slaves (who weren't allowed to bring any instruments over aside from their voices) is that it started with vocals - moaning, expressive, not worried about fixed pitch but more concerned with conveying an emotion.
Therefore, it stands to reason that some of what we hear in blues can't be constrained by thinking Western Pitch, which leads to discussions like this trying to figure out what is what.
I accept the blue 3rd now, somewhere between maj and minor 3rd, but personally, I'll call it the sour 3rd, as it is not melodic, but slightly off to these Western societal ears.
Interesting and thanks to all who kept at me until I "cracked" on this issue. Learned something new. ---------- The Iceman
I recounted my music theory from memory and got it wrong. Icemand pointed out " Raising any of the 4 notes of a diminished chord (you don't have to call them 7th chords, just diminished) will give you a half diminished chord, which is not really a chord of resolution." I had forgotten the other important part, along with raising one of the notes of the diminished 7th a half step, a note is also eliminated to get a resolution to a major or minor triad.
As they say, a little knowlege is a dangerous thing. From this discussion, I have learned that I am not really out of tune, I am just playing microtonally! :-)
If we start with an Edim7 spelled E, G, Bb, Db. If we raise the E to F we get a G half-diminished chord (with the seventh in the bass) as Larry pointed out, spelled F, G, Bb, Db.
If we eliminate one of the remaining notes in the chord we are left with either F, Bb, Db; F, G, Bb; or F, Bb, Db. None of those spell any triad I recognize.
F, Bb, Db = Bb, Db, F. Recognize a minor chord now?
I don't think that it is a resolution chord as STME suggested.
In a minor key, the half-diminished chord is often used as the ii chord, which moves towards a V7 b9 before resolving to the I chord minor (or i). ---------- The Iceman
he is only using two chord forms.... by lowering a note he gets three major chords by raising a note he gets the three relative minor chords. in all 12 keys.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 14, 2017 11:18 AM
The existence of the blue note within music derives, in part, from the fact that equal temperament in western diatonic harmony is an artifice or compromise originally used in the eighteenth century to address problems posed in the creation of keyboard instruments. Equal temperament was an artificial 'straightening out' of a tendency for the natural harmonic series (musical intervals as they exist in nature) to go off at a tangent, meaning that higher intervals and octaves in their natural form are of a different pitch than the lower intervals and octaves. This made it difficult to create keyboard instruments that were 'coherent'. Hence, the blue note attempts to correct this artifice by playing a note that is closer to the interval as it exists in the natural harmonic series. Country blues, in particular, features wide variations from the diatonic pitches with emotive blue-notes. Blue notes are often seen as akin to relative pitches found in traditional African work songs.
Blue notes (in blue): ?3, (?4)/?5, ?7
"Like the blues in general, the blue notes can mean many things. One quality that they all have in common, however, is that they are lower than one would expect, classically speaking. But this flatness may take several forms. On the one hand, it may be a microtonal affair of a quarter-tone or so. Here one may speak of neutral intervals, neither major nor minor. On the other hand, the lowering may be by a full semitone--as it must be, of course, on keyboard instruments. It may involve a glide, either upward or downward. Again, this may be a microtonal, almost imperceptible affair, or it may be a slur between notes a semitone apart, so that there is actually not one blue note but two. A blue note may even be marked by a microtonal shake of a kind common in Oriental music. The degrees of the mode treated in this way are, in order of frequency, the third, seventh, fifth, and sixth."
—?Peter van der Merwe (1989), [2]
The blue notes are usually said to be the lowered third, lowered fifth, and lowered seventh scale degrees.[3] The lowered fifth is also known as the raised fourth.[4] Though the blues scale has "an inherent minor tonality, it is commonly 'forced' over major-key chord changes, resulting in a distinctively dissonant conflict of tonalities".[4] A similar conflict occurs between the notes of the minor scale and the minor blues scale, as heard in songs such as "Why Don't You Do Right?", "Happy" and "Sweet About Me".
In the case of the lowered third over the root (or the lowered seventh over the dominant), the resulting chord is a neutral mixed third chord.
Blue notes are used in many blues songs, in jazz, and in conventional popular songs with a "blue" feeling, such as Harold Arlen's "Stormy Weather." Blue notes are also prevalent in English folk music.[5] Bent or "blue notes", called in Ireland "long notes", play a vital part in Irish music.[6]
TRUE STORY: I have the good fortune to have a musician in my band who plays keys, bass and sings who I've been friends with (and looked up to) for about 30 years and who has a Masters in jazz performance on bass. He can read music like most people read a newspaper. Very knowledgeable cat, and it doesn't all stop at the wrist, either. He plays great and can play stylistically correct in multiple idioms. And he has played professionally with a variety of musicians including internationally known jazz players as well as older (now deceased) authentic black blues players from the deep (American) South. He is also very adept at explaining relatively sophisticated musical concepts in very simple and easy to understand terms.
We play quite a bit of minor key material and just last week he was explaining to me how to use the ii half diminished chord on the way to resolving back to the I when playing minor, just as Iceman has laid out. And he knows enough about harmonica to tell me I need to use 4th position in order to have the required notes available.
My point? This guy has a ton of formal training and is one of the best, most sophisticated and most knowledgeable musicians I have ever been around, as well as a genuinely nice guy. But he is totally ignorant of the quarter tone flat "blue third" concept. Never heard of it; doesn't understand it. So, we probably need to consider this to be a little segment of arcane information...FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 14, 2017 11:43 AM
It's difficult to reconcile these last two posts. The quote from Peter van der Merwe seems to capture it - what we hear often in popular song, folk music as well as blues. And then a highly qualified musician who's not heard of it.
That doesn't cut it for me. Because I hear these malleable notes all the time in songs - particularly by the singers. And crushed notes on the piano. Long notes in Irish folk music. It's all around.
Maybe there is some resolution, but it'll take more than a guitar player saying they don't exist, or aren't important.
I concur with Mind-I have met plenty of ignorant guitar players who think they know it all-but little stuff like this perplexes them-they overthink everything.
I would NEVER let anybody tell me what position to play in-if you can't figure it out on your own,you probably are already in over your head.
Music theory is still taught in a very Eurocentric, tonal-music, twelve-fixed-pitches-to-the-octave way.
I also feeling it's not accurate to think of blue notes as being quarter-tone-flat or any other fixed microtonal pitch. I believe, rather, that they are notes of pitch inflection, moving between pitches in a manner determined by the performer. It's hard to reconcile that with academia's cult of the written score.
Interesting side note: I have a friend who is an EXCELLENT blues guitar player. Had lessons when he was a child, but is primarily self taught. Not the strongest jazz chops, but REALLY GOOD at most other material. Very well respected, works a lot and gets well paid. Knows theory, but is not an accomplished sight reader. He can learn from a chart, but can't play from one. Has a great ear, though, and learns very quickly by listening. He is a very accurate transcriber and a very precise player.
Anyway, he knows about the quarter tone flat "blue third", plays it, knows how it sounds and when to use it. How'd he learn about it? By listening...
@tmf: Well, he actually didn't tell me what POSITION to play in as such. He suggested that I use the harp that is in the relative major key of the minor key that the tune is in so as to have all the notes needed. At the time I was using a harp in fifth position which left me unable to get certain notes.
But yeah, i was definitely over my head when he first started showing me about how to use the half diminished ii. Still am, but I'm starting to get a handle on it if I come up for air every now and then....
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 14, 2017 12:36 PM
Look at what Pat does : here Changing the pitch microtonally, without thinking about it! Edit--you have to get past the ad first--he bends string 4 ever so slightly . . . Hmm, spam monster ate my post!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 14, 2017 1:04 PM
I'm not surprised that the educated in music theory guys mentioned above never heard of the blue 3rd or don't quite know what to make of it. I don't (or didn't) either.
The evolution of music is fascinating stuff. First came the music, then came the theory trying to explain how come it works like it does. Most theory works beautifully to explain most music and convey ideas amongst musicians that can talk fluent theory.
The equal temperament solved the keyboard problem - simply put, it was a solution that allowed the fixed notes on a keyboard to be tuned perfectly imperfectly to allow modulation into any key possible with no ill side effects.
When a singer sings a capella, they will sing true pitch without this compromise. When they are accompanied by piano, they will subtly shift their pitch to coincide with the backdrop created by the piano - like a gravitational pull by the piano to pull them out of that perfect orbit.
Blues music, in the beginning, always sounded off pitch and slightly flat to my ears until I gained the understanding that it wasn't about hearing it with Western European ears, but about understanding its emotional impact. (Same went for guys like John Lee Hooker who made me crazy because they constantly dropped beats and didn't fit into my 4/4 measure mentality).
Folk music sidestepped the Western European analysis approach and was an entity unto itself. Early 20th Century European composers, now that they had the invention called recording device, would travel to small towns and far regions in order to listen and record folk music, to use as inspiration and inclusion in their compositions. Zoltan Kodaly and Bela Bartok come to mind. This music existed outside of the rules created thus far and was fascinating to them. (If you want an example of what they heard and how different it was - check the following out)...
Harmonically and rhythmically, it is fascinating stuff.
Micro tonal sounds are included in folk music - music never written down, but passed on by playing. Not being written down, it was free of all the "rules".
So, blues and that blue note are part of this scenario - one can't define the blue note by Western European approaches. It must be heard and accepted for what it is.
I still don't like its sound on the spoonful tunes, but can't argue that it doesn't exist. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 14, 2017 1:26 PM
That half diminished chord and how it works may better be understood if you look at the scale (or sequence of notes) from which it is culled.
In one of the minor keys available, harmonic minor scale is the basis from which the chords and harmonies are derived.
If you consider chords as being created by first deciding your root note or starting point and then choosing every other note in the scale available (also - try to think of two octaves scales for those upper voicing notes) gives you unique sounding chords. The i chord will sound minor, but if you extend it up beyond the first three notes, it also includes a Maj 7 note. The ii chord (half diminished) starts on the 2nd scale degree. Pick out every other note available here to get a 4 note chord and voila - another cool sound. For the V chord, do the same, but grab a 5th note, too, as that b9 gives a very hip sound to the chord.
Once you have the base notes of the harmonic minor scale available firmly in your understanding, you can dance up and down it and create your melodic ideas - the same way you use a blues scale to create blues lines. Chording underneath your melodic note choices will also reflect the harmonic minor scale. The result it very cool and hip sounding ideas and harmonies.
Approached this way, it may be very easy to grasp and understand - also to play off of.
Use a keyboard for the visual. It helps. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 14, 2017 3:29 PM
I would like to mention a small, insignificant , minor , tiny tiny detail . at around 2:42 or so He is playing a triad. In C….. he says specifically, the notes are , C E and a sharp 5 He could have ….. but he did not say….. a flat 6 th
He did mention earlier re: a G# or Ab several times ,but when he mentioned the note by scale degree, he used sharp five. Just thought I would point that out, not sure why it really is insignificant and a minuscule detail, hardly worth mentioning.
larry, the guitar is a very different animal than the piano. it is laid out horizontal as well as vertical. that is what he was trying to express with this method.
he is showing how you do not need to use scales for the chords. he is amazing individual. he was a master jazz guitar player at one time. top of the heap. then he got very sick. and lost his memory. he had to learn the guitar all over again from scratch. he sounds nothing like he did before.
You don't need to use scales for the chords, but a knowledge of them merely gives you excellent note choices for a specific situation.
The reason he says sharp 5 and not flat 6th (even though they sound exactly the same pitch wise), is that a C triad is the 1st, 3rd and 5th scale degree. One can alter the notes by raising or lowering them a half step and still retain the concept of a C triad.
Since he doesn't say a C6 chord, we will assume that there is no interest in the 6th scale degree at this time - which would be "A". The 5th degree is "G", so one can alter this chord by raising the 5th degree by 1/2 step, or sharpening the 5th degree, or sharp 5 - all the same thing. When he mixes that note up (calling it an Ab instead of G#), he would get a demerit from his music theory teacher - he is using the wrong term here. Just an honest mistake, methinks.
Now the chord is actually a C aug. chord, has a specific sound and gravitational pull making it less static than a mere C triad, leading towards something else.
It's kinda cool that he shows how lowering one of the notes creates a major triad (in different inversions, btw, depending on which note you lower).
I don't know how this knowledge is an advantage, but maybe on guitar it makes something easier.
Saw him perform in the 90's at an IAJE Convention. He was the skinniest guitar player I'd ever seen in my life and was excellent. ---------- The Iceman
so i got a demerit for calling a flat 6 a sharp 5..
"which incidentally was for the same reason you cite" and pat gets one for calling a G# an Ab at least i am in good company... i just wish i could play like him.
Yeah 1847, I am mainly a guitar player, so I raise the pitch microtonally all the time-- But I believe harmonica is a better melody instrument in many ways, so I continue to play. As far as tritones, it's easy to play that interval on a couple of interior strings and then play notes above and below to change the harmony--harder to do with harmonica, but Bill Barrett does exactly that!
I'll always be a student of music but I seem to play in three modes: major, minor, and blues. I believe the blues scale gives us a new and separate mode. I think the blue note is legitimate enough to deserve its own theory. Not sure what the scholars are missing.
The blue note isn't really a theory or part of music theory, because it is indefinable. It may be listed as a sub set under Folk Music. As stated above, folk music developed regionally in small towns and remote areas around the world outside of the Western European Music Evolution, and therefore lives outside of the rules and descriptions developed.
To explain how some folk music works takes a lot of trying to bend the rules to fit around it.
Some traditional songs are called "crooked tunes", because they don't conform to regular measures - in other words, if written in music notation, you would get an odd measures containing only 1 beat tacked onto the end of 16 measures.
Some pitches can't really be defined by the rules laid down - they are slightly flat of true pitch and/or vary in pitch in their duration.
If you'd like to develop a theory for this stuff, it may be very interesting... ---------- The Iceman
@Iceman I found this article as part of my late night music theory studies. This is what converted me to a believer in the blues mode because you can do chord progessions based on the blues scale:
"The kind of modal harmony discussed here, in both folk melody harmonisation and in blues-modal harmony is not a return to the way modes were harmonised in the church music of the renaissance or the way folk music was originally accompanied but represents new ways of harmonising modal scales and blues scales to create new harmonic systems whilst nevertheless utilising components of tonal phrase syntax."
