I recently saw where a well known harp player said if you cannot get the 3draw bends distinctly,then are are still a beginner....I pulled out my Charp and korg tuner and put myself to the test....I could consistently get Ab,which is step and half bend.....I could get half step of Bb most of time but whole step which is A did not do very well...it usually went to Ab....sometimes on half step it went to A instead of Bb......after 35 years of playing does that mean Im still a beginner?
I guess using a tuner isn't a terrible idea, but it's usually tough to get it right on the nose, even if you are a great bender. I prefer to use a keyboard to check my intonation. Record yourself and listen to the playback. In a live jamming situation, a tuner won't help, but your ears will.
Anything with the second degree of the scale is good to practice getting the whole step bend on 3. Ode to Joy comes to mind . . . Try the hook to Always Something There to Remind Me-- -3 -3 4 -3 -3** -3 4 -3 -3** -2 Where -3** is a whole step bend
Seems to me there was a recent thread about the most difficult bends. First place was a blow bend in the upper register - can't recall which hole. Second place was the full step three draw. I concur.
like Gnarly said and the reason I posted that vid: Tuners , keyboards, apps are all great but also just knowing a song/progression and what it should sound like then practicing with that is effective on multiple levels at once and less tedious. But all practice is good. ---------- www.mooncat.org
Thanks to Mooncat for all his videos, and congrats on snagging a beautiful bride. So glad he is doing well. Of course, bending a note is what most folks associate with blues harmonica, but mastering the draw bends TO PITCH make you a better musician. Steve Baker does this really well--I don't! But I have fun with it, and always remember that bending to pitch (that is, producing a bent note in tune with the scale) is a moving target. When you are as good as some of the top cats (he he), you make it look easy. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. I like practicing to a tuner, but that's not really the goal--the goal is to make a good sound. So that includes tone, as well as pitch.
I recently discovered that Moonshadow, by Cat Stevens (I'm really not trying to include feline references in every post) is great for practicing bending to pitch--no bends in the middle octave, so once you have manifested the melody, try it in the low octave. Again, not blues, but definitely harmonica.
Christelle suggested 'yesterday', starting from 2 draw, as a good practice for the 3 draw, which requires 3'and 3" and moving from one to the other. For years I would use this to help 'get my ear in'. I think it was helpful. There's another I learned more recently, a tune from 'the godfather' which makes use of 3 draw bends quite a lot and uses all 3 in one passage.
Hey Gnarly, if you mean the godfather song (speak softly love?), yes I believe 3rd position. I've taken to playing it on chromatic just because I like the sound of it
Right, I have an arrangement of that starting in 1st position (C minor), and going up to C#m (very uncomfortable on chrom) then to Dm (sooo much easier).
Reading through this thread, I notice the same old school mind set - bending notes to pitch (especially those in 3 hole inhale) is very difficult, only a few high profile players do it well, and it takes a LONG TIME to learn to do this.
Think like this, and it will be so.
I prefer the "anyone can learn to bend all notes to exact pitch in a few weeks - it's not hard at all" mind set. This alone will get you much further along the bending path if you believe in it.
Rank beginners to bending to pitch within 2 - 4 weeks of them starting out (and OB within another week or two) is totally realistic and doable. Have achieved this success with many beginners. I never tell them "oh, it will take years of practice, etc". I never say "it's hard". I say "it's really easy". After they get it quickly, then I tell them about this archaic mind set that, for years, held players back, and they usually can't believe that anyone would consider it a real challenge to do.
My approach is teaching about the tongue (all the way back to where it slides way down the throat) position in bend creation - minimal amount of tongue movement, maximum amount of bend control. Once a student understands that tongue placement - exact - to create a note to exact pitch - all it takes is to reproduce that same placement and voila - you get that exact pitch.
If I were to go totally deaf, I could still bend to exact pitch by relying on focused tongue placement.
So, start by losing that "it's difficult and takes years to master" thought process.
Then, study with a teacher that understands fully the creation of bends through minimal tongue movement and exact placement.
Not hard at all. No big deal. No problem. ---------- The Iceman
Iceman, do you have any videos demonstrating your mastery of this technique? Because I find that, no matter how good a player is, there is always that chance that notes are not produced with good tone and an accurate pitch. Thanks in advance, I look forward to whatever video or audio you can contribute.
4th position is a tough practice because the root is the full step bend. Moondance is one I continually try to play in 4th.
Someone on the forum once mentioned Sentimental Journey.(in 2nd)
Gnarly- You mentioned Ode To Joy and i thought WTF - there are no bends in it! Then I realised you meant 2nd pos. I always did it in 1st. Much much harder in second!It's become my new 3 hole bend practice song.
Iceman- I'll take your word for your teaching method but I am somewhat incredulous about your being able to bend to pitch deaf. I totally rely on my ear to bend to pitch.Might come close to pitch deaf but its such a fine adjustment of the tongue....
This assumes that you have the sound of the blues scale etched into your memory so that you know what the intervals are supposed to sound like.
With that assumption, an exercise I find helpful is to play the lower register blues scale in fifth position up and down. The notes are: B2 D2/B3 D3** D3* D3 D4 B5. It doesn't matter whether you can actually play in fifth position or not. It's an excercise. For me, hitting the 3 hole bends is easier on the way up (when I hit the whole step bend and release up) than on the way down (when I hit the unbent draw 3 and bend down).
I find the easiest bend to hit is the whole step. The half step requires more finesse. For me, anyway.
What's been weird for me is the step and a half bend (which is not part of the above excercise). For literally decades I'd been able to hit the step and a half bend with no problem. Lately, as I've refined my technique and improved my ability to bend to pitch more accurately and consistently, I find myself struggling to hit the step and a half bend. This weirds me out. Go figure...
FYI: I've heard Iceman isolate each 3 draw bend. His precision is incredible. You could use it as reference to tune other instruments instead of a tuning fork. He's that consistent and that accurate.
Last Edited by hvyj on May 24, 2017 10:37 AM
Sorry, after 35 years you no longer qualify as a beginner, haha.
I'd say "distinctly" is not the same as exactly in tune. But ya, I guess that's the goal. My biggest challenge is getting reasonable tone during most of this. Honestly, I don't mind hearing pitch wandering within the blues style.
I think the BendoMeter is more fun (and forgiving) than using my tuner http://www.harpsoft.com/ (free download).
Here’s a classic 3 hole drill by Jason from his Advanced Bending video. It starts at 7:30.
http://www.geocities.ws/odechallenge/do_the_challenge.htm#music This is the Ode to Joy Challenge, from many years ago. I would love hear Larry's version, if it is available. The Jason video is great!
you say your tongue does not move, however you are having trouble with hitting precise bends at times. perhaps after 35 years a new technique would be worthwhile? it is good to keep an open mind. iceman offers some solid techniques.... embrace your fears and they will diminished grasshopper.
It's definitely harder to teach someone with years of bad habits the better techniques. That's why I love teaching rank beginners - start them off correctly and away they go - sky's the limit. So much resistance to anything new and different from the older players - sometimes they even argue with me about the possibility of something actually being so easy. They had to struggle, so, gosh darn it, so does everyone else.
but, I digress....
When one has totally memorized the tongue position for each note created with bending techniques, that is all that is needed to reproduce accurate notes - no meter needed. No hearing needed to verify (although I'm sure hearing does help). It's really that simple. Put tongue in the exact same place and get the exact same pitch.
I've described what I do and how I approach this many times on this group - it's in the archives. Unfortunately, it has always turned into some kind of debate or argument about validity.
All I know is the total success I see in those I teach. It works great!
Will do some instructional videos some day. Have good intentions, but my time is consumed with more pressing issues these days.
Hey Tuckster. You are focusing in the wrong direction, in a sense. Seems like you are mostly using your ears. Well, when your ear tells you that your bend is correct, why not pay attention to placement of tongue, etc? Turn your attention there and really see (in your mind's eye) exactly what is happening. Hold that bent note at pitch for a long time. LONG TONES. Gives you time to analyze. Then, slowly turn your focus into repeating that exact placement of the tongue as primary, using your ears just to verify. Hopefully you will start to find the value in this approach ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 24, 2017 2:08 PM
grasshopper?almost 67.....playing for 35 years.....and yes....I really can bend with my throat.....you are commenting on techniques that you nothing about.....this discussion has happened before on the forum.....you cannot do it.....but yes I can
Guy who struggles hitting pitches: "my bending is poor, can't hit pitches."
Internationally recognised highly skilled player: "I can help, it's not that hard, use your tongue."
Guy who struggles to hit pitches: "Shut up. I don't use my tongue. That's for losers. I use my throat only. You don't know what you're talking about. You can't even bend with your throat."
I'm convinced that this throat bending vs tongue placement is ultimately almost the same thing. Since the tongue actually exists way down through the throat, it is just a matter of deciding if you want to focus your attention on the throat or the tongue.
There is a phenomena that I call "bundling", which can be described as doing something that achieves the desired result, but includes non-essential movement, muscle tension and/or misdirected focus. In other words, in believing that the throat is key and focusing on it, one may actually be placing the tongue where it needs to be, but bundling it with non-essential aspects as well. What I've done over the years is one by one eliminating every unnecessary movement/focus involved in the end result, trying to get to the pure essence of the technique.
I've found it much easier to describe tongue placement than throat placement. Even asked in a previous thread how one would teach "throat bending" and no one came up with a definitive and easy to communicate approach.
I'm all for understanding new techniques in teaching, but my litmus test is how easy is it to describe and how easy is it to see results in a student. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 25, 2017 5:52 AM
Bravo! For what it's worth, I bend with my throat too, but I believe it's actually my tongue so I don't call it my throat. If I do call it my throat and focus on that, yep, I'm initiating bends from the throat. I haven't ever concentrated on tongue placement per se though. Maybe I should. My tongue is always touching the harp when I bend but that doesn't mean I can't think about associating tongue position with pitch. I'll give it a whirl.
Tip of tongue can be placed wherever you want (on harmonica for TB, for example) and the rest of the tongue is still able to move and bend.
LONG TONE 3 hole inhale first bend. LONG TONE sustained. Now, put your attention on tongue placement (usually area behind tip of tongue arcs towards the roof of the mouth - this arc can travel forward and backwards). End the note, put harmonica down, pick it up, place in mouth, put tongue back in place where it was for that 3 hole inhale first bend and inhale. The goal is to immediately create that exact note at the correct pitch from the start. Repeat above exercise until you start to see good results. Fine tune and eventually you should be able to wake up in the morning, grab harmonica from bed side table, put in mouth, place tongue and instantly create that note at pitch. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 25, 2017 6:30 AM
we are all friends here, there is no animosity. we both love blues harp, don't take it personal, its not meant that way. check out who has responded to your query. some of the most talented harmonica players ever assembled. sadly i am not in that league but that is ok. shit iceman can tune a piano with a tuning fork ....holy f$#@. pardon my french. but try that sometime.
yes, there are things you can do that i cannot. and vice versa... try this. put your tongue on holes 3 and 4 and play 2 draw... sounds simple eh? now bend that note while choking the harmonica. notice where your tongue is. if you can get it to constrict your throat the note will bend.
never thought about any animosity.....and no cannot do what you said try....at one time needed my tongue to bend.....after exercising throat for vibrato and some point in time my throat muscles got conditioned could bend without my tongue.....does my tongue not serve a purpose?of course it does.....but the post began as 3 distinct 3 draw bends....cannot see the connection
I pretty much agree with the premise in the first post. You can't really be past intermediate level if you can't hit all three 3-draw bends distinctly. That said, measuring sticks can be silly things when we are talking about art.. OTOH, listen to John Lee doing Good Morning Little School Girl. He scoops up all the way down from the minor 3rd bend over the V chord. It's clean and kinda nasty (in a good way) at the same time. The 3-draw is where so much of the sweet spots are in blues harp. Definitely separates men from the boys..
I think it's great advice to use a keyboard (was an ear opener for me) and to work hitting the pitches from a cold start as Iceman is suggesting. I also think tongue/throat is basically the same thing in bending, we all just feel it a little differently IMO.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on May 28, 2017 9:19 PM
