|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Learning New Licks - Retaining Licks
Learning New Licks - Retaining Licks
Page:
1
DannyRanch
77 posts
Mar 30, 2016
10:48 AM
|
Hi,
I find myself vocabulary limited sometimes.
I been playing on a duo setting and the guitar guy likes to play a lot on E.
Standard or Open E tuned. so that puts me lots of times on A crossharp.
I find I'm repeating myself a lot sometimes, so I want to expand my vocabulary and muscle memory.
I have been trying to avoid playing by licks, and try to work with scale degrees and chord tones for what I play but sometimes throwing your typical Butterfield or SBWII lick will do the trick.
My issue is I have problems retaining them, for later use.
I got for example a video lesson the other day from Sandy Weltman for some 3rd position "jazzy" blues licks
Some are really great, some others appear unusable to me at the moment, but I have hard times integrating them to my playing.
For example I use the St. Thomas lick for ending a shuffle or I use the Help Me triplet lick on other slow blues songs.
But some licks I try to learn or use I can't find a way to practice them, or In which part of a chord progression to throw them. As the Little walter lick book I got which shows good licks but I can't memorize them lol
Any suggestion to learn new licks? or the topic in general?
I know a lot of players are against playing others licks and such but at moments it is necessary specially when it allows you to employ them differently and create your own licks and ideas but what I'm looking is for something to start implementing on my Study sessions basically
|
dougharps
1198 posts
Mar 30, 2016
12:29 PM
|
Here are some thoughts on keeping comping and solos fresh, but not addressing the issue of licks as the solution:
Is the guitar player playing every song the same way? If there are hooks, or differences in the melody on the vocal, or differences in the groove, work to incorporate those features into your solo on those specific songs.
On some songs comp, on others use call and response, on others don't do any fills.
You don't have to solo on every song. Pick a couple to just comp and let the guitar take a solo against your comping.
You could play a couple songs a set in 1st position or in 3rd to mix it up.
Throw in octaves, chords, and/or double stops on some songs and play all single notes on others.
Play some songs entirely at the bottom end of the harp and some solos up at the top end.
Play some solos very sparsely with lots of space between notes and use long notes, and other solos play very fast and busy with notes.
Use dynamics: bring the volume way down at the start of your solo, then bring it up at the end.
Vary your use of vibrato from none to lots on different songs.
When soloing, don't play every bar allotted to you. Deliberately stop playing when it is expected that you would play and let the groove go on, then jump in when the audience doesn't expect it. (This last I heard from R.J. Mischo at a workshop, and it is cool!)
You already have the first part down: Being aware of the issue will help you focus on not being overly repetitive.
----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 30, 2016 12:36 PM
|
ted burke
447 posts
Mar 30, 2016
1:01 PM
|
My only advice to learning new licks is simple, maybe too simple; play harmonica obsessively and listen to a great many other harmonica players. I suggest listening to other players as obsessively as playing yourself because inspired is motivation to put in the hours to practice. With time, repetition, you're able to cop the licks you like and find new ways around the ten holes,but also you'll find, I think, that the licks you're trying to cop from other players morph into your own ideas, signature licks that are all yours alone. Every original idea is inspired by another original idea. And I do stress putting in the practice/playing time, whether woodshedding in the study or playing live. Play your licks fast, medium,slow, try different tempos, the whole shot, but put the time in. It's a variation on muscle memory; fire those new neural pathways in the brain and have the music become a literal part of you; you'll be able , with time and practice, to put these licks together at will, in any way you want.
----------
Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
|
slaphappy
181 posts
Mar 30, 2016
1:56 PM
|
good advice above.
I still think Dave Barrets chorus form approach to improvising is really helpful.
another way to imprint a lick in your DNA is to play it over the I chord, IV chord, and V chord in teh 12 bar blues (so repeating it 3 times, what Dave calls the AAA form)
----------
4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
|
Killa_Hertz
885 posts
Mar 30, 2016
4:30 PM
|
Doug Harps ... fantastic post man. I love it. You answered alot of questions i didn't even know i had. I don't play out yet, but surely when i do, i will run into the problem of becoming stale by playing the same stuff.
I also agree with what ted said.
However if you want to make your own licks they have to evolve from other licks. Atleast i find that any licks that i do have that are mine .. are rooted in another lick i was tought or stole.
So check out Ronnie Shellists lick lessons at harmonica123.com. Learn them slowly. If you find two or three you like stick with them for a while and they will turn itno other licks. Then those licks will turn into other licks, etc.
Also learn some of the songs on adams tradebit lessons here on the site. Up at THE STORE. I learned loss of licks from learning these lessons.
Then practice practice practice and listen listen listen to music.
----------
"THE BLUES IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE! "
|
dougharps
1199 posts
Mar 30, 2016
5:23 PM
|
Thanks, KH!
I agree with Ted about immersing yourself in listening to and playing blues harp. Also listen to other instruments, like guitar and sax, etc.
One other point I pass on to players when I can is that when you learn to play other positions, particularly 1st and 3rd, they will open up new ideas for lines when you play in 2nd position.
Why?
Take a C harp and play in 2nd, in G.
The 1-4-5 in G is G-C-D.
A C harp in 1st position is playing in C and a C harp in 3rd is playing in D.
Notes you learn to use in 1st (C) and 3rd (D) can be used when you play through the 1-4-5 chord changes.
After you have worked on your 1st and 3rd position playing you will find that you have new ideas in 2nd that didn't previously occur to you.
----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 30, 2016 5:25 PM
|
nacoran
9006 posts
Mar 30, 2016
9:41 PM
|
Try to work off what you are given. Do call and response with one of the other instruments/vocals. That should help with the repeating riffs part (as long as other people are changing it up a bit!).
When I'm practicing I tend to get stuck on specific riffs. There are some, for instance, that I've been trying to work up into whole songs, and it seems every time I pick up the harp I end up playing them. Personal earworms I guess. You can challenge yourself by trying to switch positions occasionally. Switch to first or twelfth on a song. That will force you away from some of your riffs and force you to come up with some new ones. Try working in different octaves too.
And as long as you aren't doing something in a situation where you are on the hook for royalties, pick a riff that you hear from something else. You'd be surprised what works together. One time at practice we were taking a break. One friend and I were looking up something on YouTube while the other guys were still playing a cover. It turns out you can play Riders on the Storm over Strawberry Alarm Clock's Incense and Peppermint. It might not make a great blues number, but it kind of works. You can 'steal' little bits of inspiration from other tunes. I spent a lot more years singing in choirs and singing along with the radio than playing harp, so I remember vocal melodies pretty well (plus I think the lyrics help anchor them) so sometimes I'll take a melody line from one thing and change it enough so it's not quite the same, but then try it over something else. It doesn't always work, and I can't always do it in 'real time', although sometimes I can.
I also, even if I'm not writing lyrics for the song will write a phrase or two in my head to anchor my rhythm ideas together- shave and a haircut, two bits (fill) shave and a haircut, two bits (fill). Again, it's kind of mnemonic to help me build more complex ideas. (Which in my case means barely complex ideas instead of entirely not complex ideas, but it's a step in the right direction.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
MindTheGap
1368 posts
Mar 30, 2016
11:29 PM
|
Good point, and you're not alone. I've been taking Ted's approach for some time and it's seems to be bearing fruit, although slowly.
I like dougharps list and I'm actually going to write that out, take it to a rehearsal tonight and deliberately work through it. What I like about it is that it's not all about different note choices, it's getting variety from other aspects too.
A thing I do now both as a memory aid and to ensure more variety is to work out and remember the framework of a solo to go with each different song. After some repetition I start to associate particular phrases with each song.
|
Killa_Hertz
896 posts
Mar 31, 2016
7:47 AM
|
You know, speakimg of listening to music for licks and song playing inspiration. Im listening to this Album right now that i havent put on in a while and it has absolutely great harp playing and real usable harp bass lines and hooks. I think you would get alot out of really listening to it. Very real world usable stuff. Im surely going to steal alot from it. Forgot how good it was.
Album is .. The 44's. Boogie Disease
Check it out.
----------
"THE BLUES IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE! "
|
hvyj
3023 posts
Mar 31, 2016
2:45 PM
|
Playing harp in a duo is much more demanding on a harp player than playing in a band. No place to hide. And not much else to vary the context of what is being played. So, among other things, you confront a burden to keep things sounding fresh.
One way to go about this is to play the high register. Can't blow bend with finesse? Don't worry about it. In second position there's only one blow bend that works well musically anyway and that's blow10** which is your only minor third available in the high register if u don't OB (I don't). Major 3 is available at draw7, but that's a bad note to play on the IV chord. Which is why so many players are uncomfortable trying to play the high end--because of the different breath pattern and the unavailability of a 3draw bend, they can't use the SOS they play on the low end. Ok, but isn't that the point? To work the high end you are FORCED to play differently, so what you play will necessarily SOUND different which, after all is the goal, isn't it?
In reference to the high end, many players think Jimmy Reed or Sugar Blue. Actually there are other ways to approach it. But so few players do, I can't think of any good examples.to copy. So, i'll come back shortly with some suggestions about how to approach working the high register in second position that seem to work ok for me.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 31, 2016 4:49 PM
|
Killa_Hertz
900 posts
Mar 31, 2016
3:07 PM
|
Well hvyj ... you ve got my attention. The high end is useless to me at this point. My harp might as well have 6 holes. I would love to change that.
Understanding the reasons why it doesnt sound good in 2nd is half the battle i suppose.
----------
Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
And Don't Pet The Monkey ... He Bites!
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 31, 2016 3:08 PM
|
Bluestu18
3 posts
Mar 31, 2016
4:39 PM
|
All of the above are great ways to achieve what you're looking for. I would add this: Learn complete solos. Find published transcriptions and use Amazing Slow Downer to transcribe your own. I spent a lot of time tabbing out solos from great harmonica players and learning them note for note from the tab. Listen to them and play them over and over and over until they are ingrained. This way, you learn licks in context. You learn how to start and end a solo, and where to play these licks over chord changes. This is not an end in itself, but it helps you become a better improviser. Learn a variety of stuff from different players and practice the other techniques listed above, and you will develop your own style.
|
hvyj
3024 posts
Mar 31, 2016
5:15 PM
|
Actually, the high end sounds just fine in second position, but, in general, the BLOW BENDS don't. Why? Blow9* is major 7. Blow8* is flat 6. Not good notes for blues. I mean if you are careful you can figure out ways to use them, but for the overwhelming most part they are not good notes for playing blues.
Now, blow10** is the minor third which is a blue note. But most players cannot hit that bend consistently with good timbre and proper intonation. And for those of us who can, it's still high pitched and screetchy and so is best used sparingly for crescendos and stuff like that. Which means you can't hang on bends in the high register like u are probably addicted to doing when you play the low end. That is a big part of why u feel like your harp might as well have 6 holes . That, and the breath pattern shift at hole 7.
At hole 7 and above the blow note is LOWER than the draw note, which is the opposite of how the harp is laid out below hole 7 which can be disorienting to an inexperienced player. Those are the challenges presented by the topography of the high register in second position. I lost the rest of this post by touching the wrong thing on my iPhone. I'll be back later when I can get to my computer since it's such a PITA to re-write a long lost post.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 31, 2016 5:22 PM
|
snowman
173 posts
Mar 31, 2016
5:21 PM
|
I record the stuff I do thats new- or stuff I hear on car radio-- I listen to bluesville in car pretty much all the time, when I accidentally or whatever play a lick or fill thats new and flows I record it on my phone--same with songs I hear on radio--transfer to my computor-- I go back to that stuff time to time and put on cd, Its fun cuz sometimes I forgot about a [Rod Piazza,gussow, etc,,,,,] lick I was workin on, I may have put a different twist in it,---
I also agree listening to great players and trying to do thier stuff helps immensily--it forces u out of yr, my comfort zone
I've noticed when, myself or my friend, play harp in public [duo,band or trio] that when Im tired or nervous---I tend to play similar, safe stuff.
I think thats normal--when Im in the moment and things are clicking, I sometimes say to myself ? ok put silence in, leave space or ok 'do that Rod Piazza thing u been workin on etc
I think the DELIBERATE SPACE, helps different stuff pop in yr head -stuff u usually donT play
Danny the thing that makes u play better as time goes by, is to recognize how safe yr playing and want more--
I love listening to other players-I hear all the stuff I like and don't do--or can't do --plus I just flat enjoy listening to good blues---
Last Edited by snowman on Mar 31, 2016 5:23 PM
|
MindTheGap
1372 posts
Mar 31, 2016
11:23 PM
|
I used some ideas from dougharps list, and it was good! More variety, without having to learning anything new - just consciously mixing it up. Nice.
Re blow bends on 2nd position top octave. I agree it needs different tactics than the low end, but I did a study of players/pieces that use them and there IS a use for them, and it's a way into to the top notes. It's OT here, I'll start a thread in the beginners form Top Octave Blow Bends
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 01, 2016 12:08 AM
|
hvyj
3032 posts
Apr 02, 2016
6:52 AM
|
Ok, on the high register you have to express yourself with note movement instead of bending. Not hard to do, but does require a different mind set. Not hard because you have a variety of scales available up there.
You have a complete mixolydian scale, a complete major pentatonic scale, useful fragments of the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale, and half of the third position blues scale among others. So, although you don't have an easily accessible minor third, you do have a lot of other useful notes to work with. I can tab these out if anyone wants me to.
Now 8draw 9draw 9blow is the 5 7b tonic of the second position blues scale. Try transferring common blues licks that use these notes. THE HOOTCHIE KOOTCHIE MAN riff is playable as well as the hook from WHO's BEEN TALKING. You can also simulate that riff from JUKE by glissing up the draw notes and blowing out at hole 9. Try stuff like that to start getting comfortable moving around up there. Since I'm still using my phone I'm going to post this and come back with another installment before I do something clumsy and lose what I've written.
|
hvyj
3033 posts
Apr 02, 2016
7:53 AM
|
Draw 10 is the 9th. Can be used a couple of different ways as it is an extension tone of the dominant 7th chord but is also a note in the major pentatonic scale. Play B6 D7 D8 D9 D10. That is 1 3 5 7b 9 which is the arpeggio of the dominant 7th 9th chord. Play that up and down. Now throw in blow 9 which is the tonic an octave up from blow 6. Then start mixing up the order in which you play these notes and try avoiding draw 7 while you are at it because that is the major third of the key you are in which is also the major 7 of the IV chord and so not a good note on the IV change. Try that for a while and see what combinations you can come up with that sound cool as you navigate these high register arpeggio tones. I'll be back shortly.
|
hvyj
3034 posts
Apr 02, 2016
8:19 AM
|
Now, for a completely different sound, play major pentatonic scale: B6 D6 D7 D8 B8 B9. BE SURE TO AVOID D9. Then start on the 9th which is D10 and play the major pentatonic scale descending from there being very careful to avoid draw 9 which is 7b and jarringly out of place for this scale.
Now fool around and alternate playing major pentatonic scale tones with Dominant 9th chord arpeggio tones. Btw, if you are playing major pentatonic over the IV chord avoid D7 but freely use B8 which is the sixth of the key you are in but the major third of the IV chord. Back in a minute.....
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 02, 2016 2:29 PM
|
hvyj
3035 posts
Apr 02, 2016
8:38 AM
|
As a practical matter, avoiding D7 for the most part is a useful strategy for second position high register playing. On the V change you can do this: D8 B7 D6 B6 which is the top half of the third position minor pentatonic scale ending on the 4th of that scale which is the tonic of the key you are in.
What about licks? Think NOTES, not licks. With the notes I've given you, you should be able to formulate your own licks. And so this is one way to approach playing the high register in second position.
To get comfortable, practice the relevant arpeggio, scale and scale fragments in a disciplined way so they become automatic and you don't mix them up. You want to be able to play these respective note sequences with confidence. Then u should be able to move around on the high end fluidly enough to express yourself with note movement.
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 02, 2016 8:55 AM
|
hvyj
3036 posts
Apr 02, 2016
9:34 AM
|
Oh, a further thought: it can be troublesome to find a way to smoothly link to the high register. Try avoiding draw5 as you ascend. Instead move from blow5 to draw6. This is going from the 6th to the 9th which sounds fairly melodic. Going from blow5 to blow6 is ok too but the transition is smoother if you don't play draw5.
|
Baker
423 posts
Apr 04, 2016
7:14 AM
|
Hi Danny.
As @hvyj mentions, playing in a duo is very different than playing in a band and with just two instruments it's important to keep things fresh between songs. Adding variety is key to this and @dougharps has some really great ideas. I'm definitely going to borrow some of his approaches.
It feels like in your original post your are actually asking two questions:
1. How do i approach playing in a duo and avoid constantly repeating myself – For this I'd see @dougharps and @hvyj comments.
2. How do I learn and retain new licks [that I can use in the context of playing in a duo].
On this second point I usually find that the song will dictate what should be played. I usually don't set out to try and play what ever new lick I have learned over a song, I try and feel the song and let it guide what needs to be played. If you try and force a lick into a song that it doesn't work you will have real problems playing it over that song and also problems remembering it.
Quite often I'll find that after freely playing over a song a few times I'll end up playing the same or similar thing. My assessment of this phenomenon is that I am being guided by the tempo, the groove, the melody and it's influencing my internal processes, my tool kit of things I've heard and played before, the mussel memory I've but it up – resulting in a kind of inevitable lick. I'm always drawn back to the same place. To the thing that feels right for me and the song.
If I need to work out a part for a song, something that I need to play the same every time then I'll try and harness this process by recording the other persons part without me playing on it. I'll put this in Garage Band (or something similar) and just record myself free playing and improvising over it. I'll probably do this three or four times keeping all the takes. Then listening back to it there will probably be a few things that work really well amongst a lot of rubbish :).
I'll then take these parts, figure out why I think they work, write them down. Try another few takes just working with these ideas. Listen back again, see what works, keep refining it. Once I've got something I'm happy with I'll try and write it down and then export it as MP3. I can then listen to this over and over until it's properly stuck in my head. I can also practise over the top of it so I can hear and learn it note for note. I find the combination of listening and playing really cements the part in my head, before long I can't hear the song without my part popping into my head.
I realise this is all a bit abstract but this is a kind of over view of my process and how I approach working on new songs.
I hope it's some help or gives you some ideas.
Last Edited by Baker on Apr 04, 2016 7:18 AM
|
JustFuya
888 posts
Apr 05, 2016
7:50 AM
|
I've found my own barriers jumping from low to high end. Working out the dead ends is good exercise. I'm more creative in practice and it gets messy sometimes. My payback is comfort and confidence when I most need it.
I recorded one night of practice with a guitarist about 6 months ago. When we reviewed the videos I saw myself, unconsciously, safely approaching my barrier and taking tentative steps as the day went on. No matter what we were playing and regardless of the key it was a recurring theme. Low to high and back. The bits and pieces finally came together on a gospel song. We agreed it was our best recording tho I thought my solo might be considered blasphemous in a church setting. Maybe too jazzy and upbeat. But I got me another homemade lick for the library and can plug it in as needed.
I've yet to embrace lick copying. If you work hard enough on your own it's natural and embedded. It was educational to watch and see my hits and misses. I now embrace the recording of my practice.
|
Post a Message
|
