|
beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Top Octave Blow Bends
Top Octave Blow Bends
Page:
1
MindTheGap
1374 posts
Apr 01, 2016
12:00 AM
|
On the main forum the subject of blow bends on the top octave came up, with the idea that they aren't readily appropriate for blues playing in 2nd position. And while it's true you can't just transcribe bottom-octave licks and expect them to sound good, the bends ARE used.
My own motive is not having to wait to become an OB-guru to use the top octave. And not having to always resort to the startling 10'' party-trick :).
I made a study of players/pieces that use the top octave without OBs, which is a minority. There are many ways they use the top end for blues in general, but focussing here just on the blow bends in 2nd position, I found these tactics...
1. On the IV chord, move to the top octave and 'switch' to 1st position, then the blow notes and expressive bends are natural territory for expressive, straight-up-and-down bluesy licks.
2. On the I chord substitute blow bent notes for draw notes (primarily 8B' and 9B' for 8D and 9D). You may complain they are out of tune, you may not like them, but I'm just here to report what I find. Take it up with Charlie Musselwhite :)
3. Use the Major 7th, 9B' as a passing note, in common blues phrases like 9B 9B' 9D. Or the reverse 9D 9B' 9B.
4. In major-key pieces, use the 8B (which is the 6th scale degree, and a defining note in the major pentatonic scale) together with it's expressive 8B'.
5. Repeated hits on the 9B, using the 9B' to add dips and expression.
I'm sharing this because I believe it is accessible to near-beginners, who have learnt to blow bend.
----------
Favourite Threads
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 01, 2016 2:06 AM
|
Killa_Hertz
901 posts
Apr 01, 2016
3:04 AM
|
Ill give it a try MTG thanks. The flipped notes im used to. Because I've played around with the upper just to get used to it. But nothing ever really sounds to good to my ear up there. Now i know they require OBs. Didn't really know that.
But ill try the notes you suggest. N see if they work.
Re 10" ... i cant ever get much out of the 10 blow. I know it's got 3 steps like the 3 draw. But i can't seem to find em. Lol. Havent tried a ton, but ....
----------
Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
And Don't Pet The Monkey ... He Bites!
|
MindTheGap
1376 posts
Apr 01, 2016
3:41 AM
|
It's definitely not all on a plate up there, like it is on holes 1-6. I had to hear someone else play the stuff to convince myself it was actually good. And you have to be careful as there are actual bona-fide bad notes to avoid.
Re the 10D bends, you are in good company there. Worth searching out Winslow's thoughts on the subject. I restrict my own use of 10D to the party-trick-final-high-note-with-crazy-vibrato thing. I have heard some people use them in a tasteful jazzy way, but rarely.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 01, 2016 3:43 AM
|
SuperBee
3555 posts
Apr 01, 2016
5:35 AM
|
10B is more like 2D. I don't mean the notes, I mean there are only 2 bent notes available. Thinking of a C harp, the 10B is C, the half step bend is B, the whole step is Bb and the draw is A. In scale degrees, thinking about key of G on the C harp, that's the 4th, major 3rd, minor 3rd and 2nd (or 9th depending on how you are looking at it I suppose). So the really 'bluesy' note (again, "I suppose") is the 10", Bb, minor 3rd...over the I chord. It's also the flat 7 of the IV chord and in the IV chord you can let it up to the C, which is the octave of that chord and somewhat of a resolution...but you probably don't really want to resolve on the IV chord, because it's gonna lead on to a change...so you wouldn't settle there
Just carrying on with this line of thought...the overblow/draw comes into play when you are down at the 6 hole. So if you are playing in G on your C harp, you have the tonic/root on the 6 blow. I believe the jargon is tonic if we are talking scales, root of its a chord. It's the same note:G.
The 2nd is 6 draw. Note a lot of use for the draw bend on the I chord, but it's ok on the V chord. The 7 draw is B, and just like the 10 half step, that's the major 3rd. Good note if the I chord is major, which it often is. But it's ok to play a minor 3rd over the I chord in a major song, so if you can manage the 6Overblow, that's it; Bb in this case.
7blow is C...that's the 4th, and part of the minor pentatonic scale in key of G, so a good note...also the root of the IV chord. 8 draw is D, the 5th of the scale, and possibly the next most important note after the tonic/root.
The bluesy flat 5th is the 7 overdraw.
8 blow is the 6th and as observed by MTG, an important note in the major pentatonic scale, and can also be bent flat as a tack to sub for the 8draw. The 6th is sometimes thought of as the realm of the bass though, but you can defs use it.
Bending the 8 to Eb is gonna give the minor 6th. Probably not a note you really want over the I chord but if you bend it down to a Sharpish D it's ok. On the IV chord it's a beautiful minor 3rd
9 draw is F...that's the flat 7 and very bluesy note. On a harp it's often tuned a bit flat. Bending the 9 blow as far as it will go can be a good plan...if the 9 draw is tuned in the old fashioned way, the very flat bent 9 blow may sound more 'in tune' than the 9 draw. But on a Suzuki (say), tuned more like ET, it may not be quite so good.
The 'accurate' 9 blow bend is F#, same as the 2 draw half step bend.
The bent 9 on the IV chord works a treat. It's the flat 5.
And of course 9 blow is the root of the I chord, an octave above 6 blow.
So, minor pentatonic scale...6 blow, 6 overblow, 7 blow, 8 draw, 9 draw, 9 blow. Major pentatonic 6 blow, 6 draw, 7 draw, 8 draw, 8 blow, 9 blow and you can add 10 draw easily.
Chord tones: over the I chord 6 blow (root) 7 draw (major 3rd) 8 draw (5th) 9 draw (flat 7 also notated as b7 or 7b), and 9 blow (octave). You could also use 6 OB, the minor 3rd. If the chord was a 'ninth' the 6 draw and 10 draw would also be good.
If the I chord was minor, you wouldn't use the 7 draw but the 6 OB would be an excellent choice.
Over the IV chord the chord tones would be all the blow notes. 7 blow is the root, 8 blow the 3rd and 9 blow the 5th, 10 blow the octave. Especially though, bending the 8 blow gives a minor 3rd, and bending 9 blow is the flat 5th. The 10 whole step is a flat 7
On the V chord...it depends where you want to start. 4 draw is the root, 5 draw is a minor 3rd. I'm not convinced the V chord is a good place to use the minor 3rd...because it makes the chord sound minor..and the V chord is not minor. If the band goes minor on the V chord ( so really, that would be lower case ie. The v chord)...that's a key change. That's my information anyway...same reason to steer away from that Bb (3', 6OB, 10") on the V chord...that note is very minor...the minor 6th...that's a very strong signal of a minor chord...
I dunno, maybe you can play the minor 3rd still and get away with it..try it and see.
But anyway, the major 3rd would be the 5OB. The 5th is 6 draw, flat 7 is 7 blow and 8 draw is the octave. Of course, you can keep going...9', the blow bend in 9, is the major 3rd an 10 draw is the 5th while 10 blow is the flat 7th...so there are a lot of notes there for the V chord.
So really, you are not missing much. The Flat 5th of the 'blues scale' is tricky, and the 6 OB is handy but there's plenty can be done.
The main reason (in my humble and made up on the spot inspired opinion) that folks don't spend much time up top in 2nd is that it's weak-sounding and hard to take for long, unless you can play the 5 hole octave splits on the draw notes. So they tend to only go there briefly for the expressive bends on the IV chord, or reserve the top end for first position or slow blues in 2nd.
It gets a fair bit of use in 3rd, because there is good minor scale.
And it also is good in 12th.
And in country music and other major-ish stuff, the major pentatonic is very handy and gets fair workout.
I personally would recommend learning the major pentatonic scale up and down from top to bottom and messing with that until it's pretty natural. Then you can feel super happy that you've also just mastered the 5th position minor pentatonic and can play along to hey joe and little wing as well as will the circle be unbroken and Take me
Home country road...
Ok, just joking about the song choices but it's true those 4 songs all can be played effectively on the harp with the same breath pattern.
This has been a long winded didactic announcement brought to you by a lazy harp tech...and my footy side managed to lose their match tonight so I suppose I wrote this out for my benefit really..maybe too much information to digest...but I think I'll read it a few times...I know these things but practice is the key.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 01, 2016 1:23 PM
|
MindTheGap
1381 posts
Apr 01, 2016
6:47 AM
|
hmmm Superbee, I thought you didn't want us to go off-topic from the original post :) Only joking, that's great info.
I would to think that between the two of us, people now have a practical guide to 'getting started with top octave blow bends in 2nd position' AND the theory behind it. No one can complain.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 01, 2016 6:48 AM
|
hvyj
3025 posts
Apr 01, 2016
8:14 AM
|
Precision on the blow bends is one thing a custom harp is very helpful with. Personally, I could never get that 10 hole blow bend until i started playing custom harps. But now that I've learned how to it, I am able to do it on just about any harp. It's easier to learn/develop technique when u don't have to fight the instrument.
|
Killa_Hertz
914 posts
Apr 01, 2016
11:12 AM
|
I think my biggest problem is that I dont spend much time gapping those reeds. 1
1. because I dont really play them.
2. because im not exactly sure where to gap them, because I dont really play them.
So I think if I were to really put time into it I could do it. But I ve got alot on my plate already. Lol.
But I still want to have the knowledge. So ... Much appreciated there. I would also love to have more notes to work with, but .... idk. Hard to decide what to work on next. Priorities n such.
----------
Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
And Don't Pet The Monkey ... He Bites!
|
SuperBee
3559 posts
Apr 01, 2016
1:37 PM
|
Ah yeah...well I started out with the intention of being ON topic, and then I went for completeness and the on-topic part is lost in the clutter...and I started to think it was about the top end generally and particularly in second rather than the blow bends. I was very upset by a cruel result in the Friday night football match. My team lost their 'winning lead' with just 4 seconds left to play, to lose by a single point.
The point was about the blow bends hey. So yes, the 10" is important and hence why it's so famous as to sound like a 'party trick'.
And the 8' and 9' most useful over the IV chord but the 9' also good over the V and can be used very flat over the I. And 8' similarly can be used very flat over the I but not a good note for the V chord usually
So looking at that, its very much the OP.
It seems to me, after reading my long post, that there are many good notes available.
In a way, the trick is to know which notes to avoid and when to avoid them.
I mean...thats kinda like the easiest way to lift your game at first; avoid the clangers.
when i first played 5th position, the advice, simple though it was, was avoid 5 draw an 2", and 9 draw. Pretty muvh everything else was fair game. Thats perhaps not going to deliver inspiring results but it gets you in the song.
Im sure there is some similiar and simple way to approach 2nd position.
But whats the famous high instrumental part in second...isnt jerry mccain's "steady" like a teaching study for that?
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 01, 2016 2:10 PM
|
MindTheGap
1390 posts
Apr 02, 2016
2:19 AM
|
If we are talking top-octave generally, then I've a lot more to add :)
'Steady' does have a top-octave bit, and it's a Jerry McCain staple, which is a sort of rake across 6D 7D 8D. In Steady it's formerly 6+ 7 8 8+...then down to 5+. So basically a major pentatonic run. But it's the looseness that he adds that makes it.
My thinking about this is that it's gives the same sort of effect as a crushed major and minor third on the piano - which is commonly used to emulate the ambiguous pitch of a blue note. Hard to annotate, but broadly it's a loose double stop on 6D 7D, then 7D 8D, often ending up on 6B.
I agree that a standard (and great) way into to the top octave is the pentatonic scale, which you can easily do at high speed with a glissando feel. But it's not good on a minor key song, or even a major-but-deeply-bluesy song.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 02, 2016 2:25 AM
|
Post a Message
|
