|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
question- tuning a suzuki harpmaster
question- tuning a suzuki harpmaster
Page:
1
Popculture Chameleon
142 posts
Feb 26, 2016
12:54 PM
|
I recently managed to snag myself one of those timy yet wonderful Peterson stroboplus hd tuners- I know that this little guy has special tunings for Hohner Harp models but I was wondering if it had any for Suzuki Harpmaster harmonicas and if so where could I find them and if not what settings should I use
|
barbequebob
3176 posts
Feb 27, 2016
8:11 AM
|
Except for the Just Intonation version of the Fabulous and the Manji, all Suzuki diatonics, like Asian made harps as a general rule, are tuned to equal temprament, the same as a Golden Melody or a Lee Oskar. On a Suzuki Manji, holes 2-5-8 blow and 3-7 draw are tuned 5 cents flat and the rest at equal temperament. In fact, if you click on this site on the harmonicas for sale tab, a dialog box opens to your right, and then click on harmonica tunings, you have a free download of harmonica tunings I put together and any harp not listed there (other than the Hohner Rocket, which is tuned the same as a Sp20) is tuned to equal temperament.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Killa_Hertz
637 posts
Feb 27, 2016
9:29 AM
|
Pop .. i have the same tuner. You can create custom sweetners. You would have to make a sweetner for any harps not on the stock list.
Or your other option is to set it on equal temperment and adjust the cents up and down. Like a normal tuner.
Apparently its an ET harp so you dont have to adjust anything for the harpmaster. Just set your sweetner to Equal. (I believe its EQU, its somewhere near guitar, i think it's the first one) Then set it to A = 442. (Or different if you choose.) Set the transpose feature to the proper key. ( which isnt really needed for equal, but ... ) and your good to go.
I could help you create the sweetner if you want. It's fairly easy.
Basically the way it works is. ..
Say you start with a C harp. Well you set your Root value (C) (+/- cents from equal 0). Then set your Thirds (+/- cents from equal 0) Then fifths. Sevenths. And so on. Then Name it n Save the sweetner.
This is how the transpose feature is able to give you the proper tunings for different keys. Once you tell it the root note, it fills in the scale of that note (key harp) into the tuner following the +/- settings for each interval that you used for C harp. So all you have to do is play the note, adjust it, move to the next. Very handy. Its very accurate too.
Hope that helps.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Chris L
106 posts
Feb 28, 2016
10:14 PM
|
Here is a link to a very helpful article on tuning. At the bottom there is a chart of common modern tuning systems including Suzuki's compromise tuning which is almost 12 note Equal Temperament. A quick word about tunings that most people starting out don't realize: "Just intonation" creates pure harmonies in one key. Equal Temperament means every note (in the 12 note scale) is separated from an adjacent note by exactly the same interval. We are used to this because it has been the standard concert tuning for instruments in the West for hundreds of years. But true harmonies don't fit this convenient 12 ET scale. In fact true harmonies (Just intonation)are so far off it is hard for instruments designed to play truly harmonious chords (eg.diatonic harmonicas)to play with other instruments. Hence the development of "Compromise" tunings such as those used by Hohner.
All this is to say, when tuning a Harpmaster you are not obligated to tune them to the standard Suzuki tuning. Find what sounds and works best for you. I have several Harpmasters and Bluesmasters tuned to Marine Band or 19 Limit and love them.
http://harp.andrewzajac.ca/Tunetuning
|
Killa_Hertz
653 posts
Feb 29, 2016
4:20 AM
|
Yes. The first harp i tuned, i just used a cheap tuner program and tuned my Marine Band to Equal. It sounded awful. I had no idea about comprimise or 19LimitJI. None of it. Lol. So you ve already got a headstart Pop
Pop ... the andrew zajac is agreat site. I use either his or BBQ Bobs table when i tune. Just screen shot them and set them up next to the tuner. But andrews site will further explain ALOT. Its very good.
As far as the sweetners go.... When I first got the tuner i emailed the company and asked them for a layout so i could understand how it works. This is what they sent. (If you lay the setting per note overtop the coresponding table on Andrews or Bobs site, you ll see how they work. Pretty easy once you figure it out. ) Just as I explained above.
Hope it helps. Sorry its so long.
The -1 only means that the offset starts in octave 1.
Harmonica
OMB - Original Marine Band Tuning for Harmonica in C
D -1: 4
E -1: -14
F -1: -27
G -1: 2
A -1: 6
B -1: -12
MMB - Modern Marine Band Tuning for Harmonica in C
D -1: 2
E -1: -12
F -1: -12
G -1: 1
A -1: 3
B -1: -11
MSR - MS Richter Tuning for Harmonica in C
D -1: 2
E -1: -10
F -1: 3
G -1: 1
A -1: 3
B -1: -9
S20 - 1896 Marine Band/Special 20 Tuning for Harmonica in C.
C -1: 8
D -1: 10
E -1: -4
F -1: -4
G -1: 9
A -1: 11
B -1: -3
MSM - MS Models Tuning for Harmonica in C.
C -1: 8
D -1: 10
E -1: -2
F -1: 11
G -1: 9
A -1: 11
B -1: -1
CYT - Country Tuning for Harmonica in C.
C -1: 8
D -1: 10
E -1: 9
F# -1: -2
G -1: 9
A -1: 11
B -1: -3
NMT - Natural Minor Tuning for Harmonica in C.
C -1: 8
D -1: 10
E -1: 18
F -1: 19
G -1: 9
A -1: 11
A# -1: 19
HMT - Harmonic Minor Tuning for Harmonica in C
C -1: 8
D -1: 10
D# -1: 18
F -1: -4
G -1: 9
G# -1: 8
B -1: -3
GMT - Golden Melody Tuning for Harmonica in C.
C -1: 8
C# -1: 8
D -1: 8
D# -1: 8
E -1: 8
F -1: 8
F# -1: 8
G -1: 8
G# -1: 8
A -1: 8
A# -1: 8
B -1: 8
CMT - Chromatics Tuning for Harmonica.
C -1: 12
C# -1: 12
D -1: 12
D# -1: 12
E -1: 12
F -1: 12
F# -1: 12
G -1: 12
G# -1: 12
A -1: 12
A# -1: 12
B -1: 12
Sue Haslam
peterson Electro-Musical Products, Inc.
11601 South Mayfield Ave.
Alsip, IL 60803
708-388-3311
www.PetersonTuners.com
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 29, 2016 4:23 AM
|
dchurch
28 posts
Feb 29, 2016
8:58 AM
|
Interesting thread.
I've been using a tuner app (gStrings) and using the divergence numbers from Seydel's web site (Equal or Compromised). I disregard what make or model I am tuning_ I mean it doesn't matter if I re-tune a Harpmaster or MB to equal or compromised temperament so long as I know what I have in my hand, right? I have a mix of different models and tunings. I thought I'd figure out which was "best" (haha).
I have no experience with modern tuners. So, many of them have digital memory and you can program/save/name different tuning and temperaments (sweeteners) for different harps...? Memory enough for dozens of harps and special tunings...?
----------
It's about time I got around to this.
|
Killa_Hertz
657 posts
Feb 29, 2016
9:20 AM
|
Dchurch ... Memory enough for bagpipes. It comes stock with dozens of sweetners. For almost any instrument you can think of.
If your tuning your Marine Bands to Suzuki Compromise they probably don't sound to good. Marine Bands have their own tuning. Infact they have had a few over the years. I used to prefer 19Limit JI. But since playing the manji, i think Crossover is my favorite. A bit More mellow.
You should really check out one of the tuning tables mentioned above. And read A Zajacs site. It may really shed some light on the subject for you.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
dchurch
29 posts
Feb 29, 2016
4:20 PM
|
Thanks KH,
The tuner sounds pretty handy (I'm also restoring a squeezebox). I appreciate the reply and will do some more reading on the subject. I honestly just assumed the harp itself wouldn't make a difference. But, things are not always as simple as they seem.
I've tried several tunings and currently play Richter, circular, and semi-circular. My Richters are mostly MB's. My circulars are a mix but mostly Seydels (equal temper). My semi-circulars are a mix of any good quality make/model harp.
I play concert/jazz and a lot of single hole melody with the circulars (I can't help it after so many years on the horn). Naturally, I use the Richter for classic blues. The semi-circulars do a pretty good job of everything.
I have struggled a little with the temperament of the semi-circular harps, but in the end I just try to make them sound decent. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Sorry if I got to far off topic :(
Dave
----------
It's about time I got around to this.
|
Killa_Hertz
663 posts
Feb 29, 2016
4:27 PM
|
Well generally speaking equal temperment for single notes. Compromise tuning of choice for good sounding chords. But its explained in further detail on andrew zajacs website. Search his name n the site will come up.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Thievin' Heathen
699 posts
Mar 01, 2016
7:12 AM
|
"If your tuning your Marine Bands to Suzuki Compromise they probably don't sound to good."
I have to take issue with that statement. If you tune your MBs to a Suzuki compromise tuning, they will sound like Pro-Harps or Manjis. If you tune your Lee Oskars to 7-Limit J.I., they will sound like pre-war MB's, albeit with plastic combs.
|
Killa_Hertz
668 posts
Mar 01, 2016
9:51 AM
|
Well if you want to take a harp that basically IS the classic blues sound (marine band) and tune it to equal-(ish)(suzuki). And you think that sounds good .... then ok. But most would disagree, i think. Infact alot of people tune their Manjis to Marine Band tuning. Not the other way around. The chords just straight dont sound good... so im not sure what there is to take issue with. It is pretty much fact, not really opinion. I think you would have a hard time finding someone to say that ET chords sound better than ANY Compromise Tuning. So idk why you would intentionally tune a MB like that unless you were using it for melodies. And then the question becomes "Why did you buy a Marine Band in the first place?"
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Gnarly
1677 posts
Mar 01, 2016
11:22 AM
|
@Killa_Hertz I don't know . . .
I am working on Billy Branch's Manjis right now, he is an endorser. I did a batch for him a few months ago, and took time to tune them more just, since it is the classic blues sound. When I spoke with him 10 days ago, I asked him if he noticed a difference. He hadn't . . .
Replacement reed stock is low for some keys here, so I put new reed plates into a Bb and, after flat sanding the draw plate, checked the chords for tuning, thinking I might do a little retuning. It didn't seem to need it!
So I don't know if it's true that "The chords just straight dont sound good..."
Although I am sure we can agree to disagree . . .
One thing is for sure . . .
"You can always improve a harmonica"
|
Killa_Hertz
674 posts
Mar 01, 2016
7:22 PM
|
Well you may get by with the suzuki tuning, but if you A/B it with a Marine Band you'll see how bad they sound. To my ear they just dont sound very musical.
I admit that after playing my Bb Manji ONLY for about a week, i got a little more used to the chords. I do like the mellow sound. But its just a little off. Somethings not right. Im curious to see what a manji with crossover tuning would sound like. Its a little softer comprimise than standard MB.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Killa_Hertz
675 posts
Mar 02, 2016
5:44 AM
|
okay ... i may have been a little dramatic here. After actually taking my own advice and A/B ing the Manji and MB ... it's not as bad as i thought. But the MB chords are much sweeter. But it only takes a lil tweak on the Manji to fix that. The manji still sounds a lil funny to my ear on the chords. Even if it is a subtle difference i can still tell. Its just missing something. its slight, but it's there. But it may also have a bit to do with the different reed material, or something like that. Have to tune 2 of the same model harps to really get a good idea. Im going to do some tweaking tonight n see if i can get the manji tuned a lil sweeter.
Straight ET is rough tho. I A/B ed a seydel ET tuned with the MBD and it was awful.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Gnarly
1680 posts
Mar 02, 2016
7:11 AM
|
I don't prefer ET, although most Suzukis are tuned that way.
It seems to me ET would be more appropriate if you play in 12th. Is there a compromise tuning that favors 12th?
|
Killa_Hertz
676 posts
Mar 02, 2016
11:26 AM
|
Well actually suzuki has a slight comprimise. Which is what makes them not sound as horrible as pure ET
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
|
Gnarly
1684 posts
Mar 02, 2016
12:31 PM
|
Harpmaster and Bluesmaster are both pure ET.
|
Killa_Hertz
678 posts
Mar 02, 2016
1:56 PM
|
Ahh. Didn't know that.
Learn something new everyday.
I suppose given the OP i should have looked that up. Lol. O well.
----------
"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 02, 2016 1:57 PM
|
isaacullah
3153 posts
Mar 02, 2016
5:52 PM
|
Much excellent advice in this thread! I will add a snippet of advice gotten from Mr. David Payne about how to tune using a cheap chromatic tuner and your "ear":
Dave Payne’s Tuning method for a cheap Korg tuner and your ears…
Starting on the blow plate. Reed No. 1 is tuned to top dead center, right on at whatever the reference pitch is. You can use the tuner to tune, say on JI tuning, the 2 blow at somewhere around minus 14 cents. Tune the 3 blow at plus two.
All of these will be your best guess so far. As you sound the note, you won't be able to hold a pitch steady. Just hold it steady as you can, the needle will swing back and forth, try to minimize that swing to about 10 cents. Your actual pitch will be somewhere about the middle of the swing, or maybe a little on the sharp side.
But the PRECISE tuning of the harmonica isn't as relevant as you'd think. There is a window of elbow room you have... for instance, there is a huge window between harps tuned at 440 and 444 Hz, but all are OK, although 444 is a bit sharp for my ear. What is CRUCIAL is that the harmonica be in tune with itself. That's where your ear comes in.
You will be doing all the blow plate with the harp apart, you hold the two plates on the comb with your fingers to check pitches.
You can use another harp of the same key for reference, provided you want to tune your harp that same way. Blow 1 and 2 together. Do they react together how they should? Again, you are not listening for pitch. You are listening for an interaction of those two sounds. The sound energy from each will hit each other in the air and the effect of that is a little bit of a warble provide one is tuned higher or sharper from the EQ pitch, say if the 1 is dead on an A=442 reference and 2 is 14 cents flat, they will react to one another. At Equal temperment, both will be at 0, right in tune. The two sounds interact little and when played together, sounds boring as hell to me.
So your ear makes a decision, are they fighting too much? Not enough? You're looking for something like the speed of a warble.
If you are not satisfied, look at the tuner again and see what it says. Listen to the notes again, now you have to make a decision, provided your 1 blow is dead on and it should be, whether to sharp or flat the two blow. Make a very minor adjustment and repeat that process.
Now, on to the three, playing the two and three together, making an adjustment, then playing 1-2-3 blow together and making an adjustment if necessary.
Once you are happy with the 1-2-3 blow chord, it is pretty much ALL ear from this point on the blow plate. Put your mouth on holes 1-4, cover up 2-3 with your tongue. Now, you should hear the 1 and 4 blow played together ringing like a bell. There should be no warble. There probably will be warble, so you can either listen to the two pitches or check the tuner, but you have to make a decision whether the 4 is flat or sharp. Tune a little in that direction, check the octave again. You will need to play a sustained note for at least 10 seconds if you don't hear warbling, here's why:
When two pitches are relatively close to each other, say within a semitone, they warble. At say 40 cents difference, they warble really fast, like a machine gun. The closer they get in pitch, the more the warble slows. When they are really close, but still off, that warble is delayed. It can be delayed as much as five or six seconds.
Repeat process with tuning the 5 blow to the 2 blow, 6 blow to the 3 blow, all the way up to the end. As you go higher in pitch, they warble faster with less difference and it gets noticeably harder to get it exact around hole 8 and 9, especially hole 10.
Now the draw. Tune the 1 draw to the reference pitch. But this is NOT your reference pitch for the draw plate. After you've tuned 1 draw, tune 2 draw to the 3 draw on the blow plate (they are the same note). Once two draw is the same as hole 3, leave two draw alone. Now repeat the process you had with the 1-2-3- blow chord with the 1-2-3 draw chord, only the 2 draw is the one you do not change.
After that chord is good, tune the 1 and 4 draw octave.
Now, on to the five. You can use the tuner primarily on that one if you want to start. Now tongue block and play the two and five draw together. Your five draw can be tuned any number of ways. 2 cents sharp, 20 cents flat, whatever, those are all viable ways to tune a five draw. What you are looking for in the two and five draw together is a degree of fighting. A flat five draw will make it roar together, which is good when you hit the 2 and 5 draw for a 7th.
Once you've got your 5 draw tuned, play the 4-5-6 draw chord. Again you are looking for an interaction of notes. Is it what you want? Put the six somewhere around plus two or three. Play the six blow, then the six draw? Does that sound OK? Now play a scale starting at 4 blow going up to six draw. Does that sound OK? Now go back to the 4-6 draw chord. How does that sound to you? If you want to change how that chord sounds, concentrate on the 5 draw.
Now when you get up to 7, tune the draw plate to whatever the pitches should be according to the layout you are using. You can put some tape over the 6-8 holes, if you can't tongue block three holes at a time, but you need to tune the 5 and 9 holes to the octave, just like all the other octaves. Run some scales on the high end. Does it sound OK? The end result is the 8-10 draw chord will sound the same as the 4-6 draw chord.
Lower notes flatten more under increased pressure. SO, if you blow harder and the warble speeds up, the lower note is flatter than the higher note.
If you blow harder and the warble slows, it's the other way around.
Again, very little of this has been listening for pitch. You do not have to have a trained ear to do it.
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
|
mlefree
608 posts
Mar 02, 2016
5:58 PM
|
Promasters are also ET.
They're great harmonicas. I don't know why they are often omitted in discussions like this.
Michelle
----------
SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
|
dchurch
30 posts
Mar 03, 2016
11:53 PM
|
Isaacullah,
Thank you for posting Dave Payne’s Tuning method
& Thank you Mr. Payne! I applied that methodology to a couple of harps that just didn't sound quite right to me overall. Cool results, and I liked that listening plays such an active role (no offence to the needle).
I applied a similar approach to one of my semicircular tuned harp (Richter 1-6, Circular 7-10). Again, very helpful.
Much appreciation,
Dave
----------
It's about time I got around to this.
|
Post a Message
|
