Eb is good for G minor fifth-position playing, as is Ab for playing in C minor in fifth, and Bb and Eb are definitely keys that come up from time to time. I can't say how many classics were played using those keys, though.
Eb is essential if for no other reason than you need it to play Bb in second position and Bb is a commonly called key. Also used for F minor in third, C minor in fourth and G minor in Fifth. A workhorse harp without which I could not make it through a gig.
Ab is needed if you play with musicians who like to play in Eb. One guitar player I play with calls Eb a lot so I need it for playing with him. Otherwise, Eb is only called every now and then, but often enough to carry an Ab harp IMHO. Eb is called more often in bands with horns. But I use Ab to play C minor in fifth position and Cm is a commonly called key in the musical circles I move in, so Ab is a must carry harp for me.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 14, 2016 2:13 PM
Eb and Ab are definitely horn keys, but then I am a horn player so I like to have them. One of my next harp acquisitions will probably be a low Eb, for the same reason I have a low F, the standard Eb is a bit on the high side.
I would still like to understand why the horns tend to use the flat side of the circle of fifths and the strings use the sharp (dark) side. Generally when horns and strings play together it is the horns who adapt and come over to the dark side.
i can think of a few: Stevie Wonder: Boogie on Reggae woman is Ab in 1st Kim Wilson: Lowdown Ab in 2nd not a harp song as such, but Herbie Hancock: Chameleon i used an Eb in 2nd
I use an Ab harp quite a lot. Mostly in 3rd position (Bb). It's just a nice key for playing the high octaves. Eb I use rarely. It's about as high as I would normally want to go although I do own a low Eb which I bought to play one song, Maagic Sam's "Just a Little Bit" because the band wanted to play in Bb and the main riff is much easier in 2nd position.
What about the other less common keys? I use Db occasionally for second position Ab, but as yet I've not used an E or F# on any songs. B and Db are not common keys for bands to play in and those harps are just too high for 1st or 3rd in my book.
Why are Ab and Eb "horn keys?"What does that mean, a "horn key?" What horns are we talking about? Some are transposing instruments and some aren't. Also, what keys aren't horn keys? Just wondering.
Last Edited by Dr.Hoy on Feb 14, 2016 4:49 PM
Music written for wind instruments is typically in concert F, Bb, Eb, and sometimes Ab (horn keys). String music tends to be written in G, D, A, and E. When you play wind ensemble music, you will usually be in the "horn keys" orchestral music tends to be in the "string keys". I suspect horns and strings developed independently. There is no physical reason I am aware of that trombones, trumpets, clarinets, tenors sax, etc are pitched in Bb instead of C. IT is also interesting that even though the trombone is a Bb instrument, it is scored in C in bass clef. Unlike the Bb trumpet that is scored in Bb treble clef. Alto trombone is in Eb but it is also scored in C. I suspect there is some interesting history behind this.
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 14, 2016 6:04 PM
But scores are written for horns in any and all all keys, due to the fact that horns don't play in a vacuum, horns have to play with other instruments. If I'm given a chart in the key of D then the transposing instruments are going to sound in that key, whether they're reading their charts in B or E.
But what does that have to do with the diatonic harmonica? I've seen it here before, someone making it a point to say that a certain key is a horn key. What difference does it make, why is it relevant, see what I mean?
Edit: put another way, if you're sitting in with a band and you ask the tenor player what key the next song is in and he says Bb, why would it matter to you that his Bb is C?
Last Edited by Dr.Hoy on Feb 14, 2016 6:28 PM
Dr.Hoy, at a pro level you are correct, you play the chart in front of you and transpose if you need to. What this has to do with harmonica is a cross cultural understanding. Most horn players who do not have a great deal of experience will find it easier to play in the flat keys with the easiest usually being Bb.
I sometimes lead songs at Slo Jam here in San Diego and one of the admonitions given is to bring a song in G or D because those are easier keys for the guitar, banjo and mandolin players that make up most of the musicians.
So in some respects this has nothing to do with the diatonic harmonica. It just has to do with understanding a bit about other instruments, especially when played by less than pros.
Db is needed for Ab in second position, and Ab gets called every now and then. For me, it is important for playing F minor in fifth position, and In the circles I move in, Fm gets called more than Ab.
In general, it's not all that useful to ask what key certain tunes are played in. In practice, the original key is often ignored and a different key is called that better suits the range of whoever is singing the tune. As far as horn keys are concerned, I am under the impression that the fingerings for notes commonly notated as sharps on a sax are more difficult than those commonly notated as flats, but I don't really know.
Quite a few Rolling stones songs Mick uses Eb . Ab needed with a few of their songs also. I think Keith Richards tuned his guitar down a half step. So did Stevie Ray Vaughan... Ab and Db needed for a lot of his songs.
Last Edited by Bugfan on Feb 15, 2016 12:35 AM
My band, The Moe Ribbs Blues Band, does several songs in Bb and I play an Eb in 2nd postion. We do "Why Get Up" by the Fabulous Thunderbirds, Floyd Dixon's "Hey Bartender," and Taj Mahal's "She Caught the Katy." We may start playing Big Joe Turner's "Flip, Flop and Fly" which I think is also in Bb. Other songs we might be working on also in Bb are Eric Clapton's versions of Robert Johnson's "Travelin' Riverside Blues," and "Milkcow's Calf Blues."
If you're mixing it up with 3rd pos chromatic you'd need an Ab to switch to diatonic on songs played with a pressed slide, think George Smith and guys carrying on his styles. Or switching from Ab in third to Eb cross. ---------- www.Spiersharmonicas.com Harp repair and upgrade menu
String keys are the keys that are easy for stringed instruments, and those keys usually match the open strings - G D A E on a violin or mandolin, E A D G (same notes, different order) on guitar. Keys with open strings can be played without moving the right hand too far up the neck, which requires more skill and knowledge of the note layout, especially on violin.
When you finger a C scale on a flute, it comes out in C - flute is a C instrument. But on clarinet, trumpet, and tenor or soprano sax, the same scale fingering will come out in Bb - they're Bb instruments. On alto or baritone sax, it will come out in Eb - they're Eb instruments. Closely related keys - where you only have to alter one or two notes of the default scale - include F, Ab, and Db. Those are considered horn keys. =========== Winslow
Very true, WinslowYerxa, but I still fail to see how this is relevant to diatonic harmonica keys. The question is about Ab and Eb pitched harmonicas, leading someone to point out that they're horn keys. My question remains: perhaps, but so what?
C# has 7 sharps. so the sax player has to work a lot harder. even experience sax players will give you the stink eye. less experience sax players will just sit out.
to us harp players it does not matter what harp we use but a Bb is a favorite to play for me. i just like that range. also an Eb harp is just flat out fun to use ---------- .
I play with myriad singers so i hit Ab and to a lesser degree Eb all the time. Ab is my favorite key for 3rd and 2nd. p.s. West Weston (above embedded video) is the fu#%&in best. Harp, groove, vocals, aesthetic: a real audience friendly musician! Between him and Lee Sankey: I'm moving to Britain! ---------- Facebook
Last Edited by bigd on Feb 16, 2016 10:53 AM
Who do you play with more, string players or horn players?
If you play with horn players, you'll need harps for flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db), while if you play mostly with string players, you're more likely to need harps for sharp keys (D, G, A, E).
Maybe you play only by yourself, but want to play tunes that occur in one milieu or another, and find that having the correct harp for the key to be helpful.
In any case, I was providing a general perspective on who uses those keys and why, in hopes that such information might be illuminating in general.
However, there is another consideration - timbre and responsiveness, which changes with pitch.
For me an Ab harp (Howard Levy's favorite, by the way) is half way between the fatness of a G-harp and the leaner feel of an A-harp. Similarly, a Bb harp is just a little more muscular than an A harp. For some reason I find an Eb harp slightly less bright than a D harp even though pit's pitched one semitone higher. =========== Winslow
@1847 - C# has 7 sharps, but Db has only five flats, which is why you almost never see anything written in C# major, but see plenty of tunes written in Db. And for a Bb instrument, Db is only 3 flats, while for an Eb instrument it's only 2 flats. When you put the same tune in C#, that translates for Bb instruments to D# major - (9 sharps, including F-double-sharp and C-double-sharp) while for Eb instruments it's A# major - 10 sharps) - stink-eye material indeed!
How is this relevant to harmonica? We live in a world with other instruments, and knowing a little bit about them can help us to work with them better - like putting our tunes in Db instead of in C#. =========== Winslow
If you're gonna be working in a band that has horns, those two keys ae essential because horns commonly use those keys and if you're in a band situation doing BB King stuff, BB used to play in those odd keys as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I've always kept the so called oddball keys because I've found over the years that it's important to be ready for anything and never let yourself caught caught with your pants down. I use low Eb's for doing horn oriented jump blues stuff so I can take a more decidedly horn like approach for that stuff and I also do a Joe Houston tune called Way Out with an Ab harp played in Eb. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I've never played in a band where one of the members got to choose keys based on what was easiest for him to play. Horns can and do play in "not horn" keys. But to be brutally honest it's up to who plays what to bring it, and if you can't bring it because a key is too tough then you shouldn't be on the stand. :)
Of course Winslow is correct about what horn players call those, but that is what turned up when I searched 'Horn Keys". There is a key on a brass instrument, the water key. Which reminds me of a quote that I do not have an attribution for about brass instruments, "Any instrument that hawks it's own loogie every few minutes is sure not to be popular with the ladies!"
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 16, 2016 3:48 PM
Yes, those water keys (aka "spit valves") are kind of gross. Seems to me I met a least a few female French Horn players in music school, though, and at least one trumpeter. No trombone players, though.
I think a basic sets should be sold w/ the following keys. A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F and G. I carry every key but the above will handle most situations. I also have two or more of every key and several chromatic harps. Just key of C chromatics and my fav is a four octave. At jams I usually just bring an A and a C. I only play three positions but I get A, B, Bm C, D, Dm, E, and G out of these two harps. A Bb harp is a good idea too. I will say an Ab in 3rd is fun. ---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
Last Edited by MP on Feb 16, 2016 3:57 PM
when the rolling stones play honky tonk women, keith takes the low E string off his guitar and tunes to open G. he does this because it sounds cool and because it is easier. it is not because he does not know how to fret a G chord in standard tuning. it is easier, you do not need to use any fingers on your left hand, you just strum. he would not go to the trouble of re-tuning his guitar to G than call out to the band hey lets do this in Ab. even if he did he would use a capo, because it would be easier than trying to figure out how the heck to finger an Ab chord when tuned to G it is human nature to do things the easy way. to reduce things to the lowest common dominator.
Winslow, Last night I attended my sons high school wind ensemble concert and one of the numbers was a trombone concerto that featured a young lady with amazing skills on the instrument.
They also played the Dance Bacchanal from Saint Saens, "Samson and Delilah" which the conductor explained was originally written for orchestra but the arrangement they were playing had been converted to "horn keys" and long passages rephrased to allow for the breathing wind instrument players need.
There were no harmonicas on stage, but it is interesting that the ability of the harp to sound notes on the inhale really opens up your phrasing options compared to other wind instruments.
Personally, I've only encountered bands tuned down a half step once or twice and I've played out a lot. I carry all 12 keys anyway, but in my experience it is so infrequent that I run into in the musicians who turn down a halfstep, that I would not bother to make any special preparations to be prepared for that.
A capo, of course, raises the pitch of the guitar one half step for every fret. I don't play guitar, but I learned this to be able to function playing at open mics with guitar players who don't usually play with other musicians and can't figure out what key they are in when they use a capo. Open mics are different from jams. I rarely do the open mic thing these days as it can be very problematic to play with musicians who generally only play by themselves as it can be very problematic to play with musicians who generally only play by themselves unaccompanied. Before I knew lany better, I used to think I was screwing up. Now I understand that playing with other musicians is a distinct skill set that not everyone performing at an open mic has acquired.
Personally, I've only encountered bands tuned down a half step once or twice and I've played out a lot. I carry all 12 keys anyway, but in my experience it is so infrequent that I run into in musicians who turn down a halfstep, that I would not bother to make any special preparations to be prepared for that.
A capo, of course, raises the pitch of the guitar one half step for every fret. I don't play guitar, but I learned this to be able to function playing at open mics with guitar players who don't usually play with other musicians and can't figure out what key they are in when they use a capo. Open mics are different from jams. I rarely do the open mic thing these days as it can be very problematic to play with musicians who generally only play by themselves unaccompanied. Before I knew any better, I used to think I was screwing up. Now I understand that playing with other musicians is a distinct skill set that not everyone performing at an open mic has acquired.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 20, 2016 1:56 PM
Slobberslinger, I am of the camp that believes a harmonica consists of a minimum of 12 pieces, one in each key. However, if you don't have a full set (yet) I would concur with your statement.
This reminds me of a related situation. At a song circle I sometimes attend, the presenter will frequently state something like, "This is using G chords with a capo on the third fret", which leaves me doing a few mental calculations to select a harp. I am considering the next time I present a song saying something like, "this is on a G harp in 12th position, and let them do the math!
maybe already mentioned but A lot of guitar players tune down a 1/2 step Hendrix Etc-- and as some one else mentioned horn players like these keys --Ab more common Bb very common Eb later
Last Edited by 
Which reminds me of a quote that I do not have an attribution for about brass instruments, "Any instrument that hawks it's own loogie every few minutes is sure not to be popular with the ladies!"
Last Edited by 