OK I have been trying to get my head around the basic harmonica maintenance thing and have just started with reed gapping. However I want to make sure that the changes I make to the harmonica still make it playable and in tune I am going to start by using an old harmonica I don't use anymore an old blues bender- but I was wondering if there is a specific tuner I should get for Harmonica before going to a store and getting a tuner meant for guitar by accident- thanks
Peterson strobe tuners makes one for the Iphone and it's actually available trhu the Iphone app store and is now also available for Android and Peterson tuners are THE most accurate in the business and here' the link:
IPhone Tuner App ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Dec 05, 2015 8:01 AM
There's one little device that helps me a lot with any of my chromatic tuners. (I'm a bit of a Luddite and don't have a strobe tuner or a smart phone.)
It's an inexpensive Korg clip-on microphone, a piezoelectric transducer on a cable terminating with a single-ended phone plug (like an instrument cable).
It's handy for two key reasons. One, it removes any potential contamination from ambient noise (room, computer fan, etc.) that an open mic' might catch. Also, it's spring-loaded which helps clamp the reed plates to the comb. That frees one hand during the blow plate tuning sequence of repeatedly removing, tuning and replacing to test.
I also use Andrew's French tuner for "coarse" adjustments but still find that a final pass with the blow plate mounted is necessary for final adjustments.
Might help you , too.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Just about any tuner will do. I recommend you get one on which you can adjust the base pitch (A=440. Most of them give you way more range than you will ever need for harmonica ex: from 420 to 450 Hz). The Korg CA-1 is excellent. It also has the feature of playing the pitch you have set.
Once you find a tuner that works, its precision is irrelevant. None of them will be of any use to get the harmonica perfectly in tune. You need to use your ears for that. This is even true when you use an anlogue strobe tuner.
As you gently alter the airflow, the pitch of the reed will change. That's why a tuner in of itself is almost useless. But you can use this to your advantage. Tune octaves together. You can even tune fifths, thirds and flat sevenths that way if you focus your attention.
Here's a quick example (skip to the very end to hear pre and post tuning examples):
@Popculture Chameleon -- Petersons are excellent and if you took the time to check out the link I inserted carefully, it already has harmonica tunings on them listed as sweetened tunings.
Below is from that page:
OMB -- Original Marine Band Tuning for Harmonica in C MMB -- Modern Marine Band Tuning for Harmonica in C MSR -- MS Richter Tuning for Harmonica in C S20 -- 1896 Marine Band/Special 20 Tuning for Harmonica in C. MSM -- MS Models Tuning for Harmonica in C. CYT -- Country Tuning for Harmonica in C. NMT -- Natural Minor Tuning for Harmonica in C. HMT -- Harmonic Minor Tuning for Harmonica in C GMT -- Golden Melody Tuning for Harmonica in C. CMT -- Chromatics Tuning for Harmonica. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
The iStroboSoft app for ios works really well for harmonica. I've used it for several years and have tried others as well. The interface design is well suited for harp tuning.
The Hohner Rocket tuning is the same as the present day Special 20/Marine Band/Marine Band Deluxe. If you want to go super old school, then use the original MB tuning, which was the same on a Special 20/Marine Band/Blues Harp until 1985 (7 limit just intonation). If you want to tune it more like most Asian made harps or the Golden Melody, then use the Golden Melody tuning, which is Equal Temperament.
I also have a list of tunings that's a free download in a PDF file at this link below:
Harmonica Tunings Chart ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Dec 08, 2015 10:11 AM
I have seen a few rockets here for repairs and they have all been tuned very sharp compared to sp20. I'll have to find my notes, but I'm sure I've seen reeds as much as 25 cents north of where I'd expect to see them
I thought it seemed like crossover too, which is why I asked a while ago about which temperament the spare plates would default to. I was told rockets and sp20s are tuned the same way. All I can say is that my experience is contrary, but I have not had very many Rockets here. I've seen Seydel harps with very different temperaments too, which made me wonder if there was a pre/post date where they changed the stock tuning scheme.
The oxidation that forms between the reed pad and plate after playing will often drive them sharp, it's sorta like shortening the reeds and/or tightening rivets. I haven't noticed temperature causing a big difference except for condensation which isn't a problem on tuning tables at a factory. ---------- www.spiersharmonicas.com
This is one reason why it's really poor advice to jam a .002" feeler back to the pad to set some imaginary ideal "zero point" as seen here and elsewhere on the web in the past. And opening gapping without care can really flatten pitches. ---------- www.spiersharmonicas.com
Last Edited by harpwrench on Dec 08, 2015 7:45 PM
I typed a big long review on the peterson strobotune hd. But apperently it never posted. Anyways long story short its well worth the money. It has sweetened tunings for 7limit JI. natural minor. Current MB. Etc... anyway Bob has since covered what it was i thought i wrote so i won't elaborate too much. But you can also make custom tunings and download other peoples uploaded custom sweetened presets. Obviously 19 limit JI is an easy one ... just a tweak of the omb 7 limit ... octaves are usually beat free on the first shot .. or close to it. Anyways my 2 cents. Check it out. Apperently there are also a line of lee oskars and seydel sweetners.
Arzajac ... Good Look on the comb. Irecently bought one from you...put it on a broke in MB in C .. sanded it and tuned it to 7 limit JI ... thing is SOLID ... nice lil old school harp ... the french tuner also comes in handy ...
thats interesting Joe. re the 2 thou zero setting...ive seen that said..and i checked it out but i rarely found a harp set that wide.
KH, those sweetened tunings...i see the blurbs talk about defaulting to C...does that mean you're stuck with using them on C harps? i haven't got around to reading all the guff on that app and its extra $ for the STs
No you are not stuck with C. Its just default. You can very easily change which key and hz value 440 443 etc. The way the sweeteners work is by setting a +/- value for your 3rds 5ths etc. So as the root key changes so do the keys of said increments. I actually got one of the techs over at peterson to send me the values of the stock sweeteners. I recomend you check one out on youtube. They really are great. I dont trust that software iphone stuff. Its not the program as much as it is the mic and so forth on the phone. Have you ever been talking to someone using speakerphone and you can hear the long delay. Prime example of one of the issues with not havin the proper equipment. I mean we all spend serious money tryin to get that great tone right. Why use a POS to set and tune the basis of that. At only $100. Its worth every penny to me. I mean i have harps that cost more than that .. that i dont even play anymore. If i could afford a real strobe tuner i would get one .. but this thing is a beast. My 2 cents.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 09, 2015 10:21 AM
One thing that should be noted is that the mobile phone tuner software is considerably better and more comprehensive for the Iphone than it is for Android at this moment and the one for the Iphone is pretty much the same as the one you can download for any computer you may have and the one on the Iphone also has the ability to tune to the harmonic overtone, which was something all the old Conn Strobotuners allowed you to do, which was to set your root note and standard pitch up first, and then tune to the harmonic overtone and the way you do it is tune it to the circle of 5ths, basically the same as the root note of all of the different positions on a harp and what you have is absolutely perfect 7 limit just intonation every single time. And both Jinx and Killa Hertz have it exactly right.
One thing to remember is that there are no harmonicas actually being tuned to true A440 because all the manufacturers know for a fact that the vast majority of players play with a harder breath force than they think they do and in REAL playing breath, if any harp was tuned to true A440, the actual pitch they'd be playing in would be either A438 or if they're really hard on them, A437 and so no matter what temperament the instruments are tuned in, they'd be really flat sounding against a band tuned to true A440 and so the vast majority of harmonicas being made today generally have a true pitch of A442-A443 and sometimes as high as A446.
BTW, I highly recommend this Peterson tuner because this is one of its least expensive and most convenient and has all the sweetened tunings plus if you get an upgraded version, it will also come with an excellent metronome as well:
If you visit the above link you can see some informative videos about this unit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Dec 09, 2015 10:42 AM
I considered the metronome but its a pretty expensive upgrade. I mean how great could it be? Serously tho how is it? Honestly i think it should come with it. I could be wrong. But i do know that the sweetners make the tuner. Tuning 19 limit JI with a boss ... is a pain. And you know the boss style reg. Chromatics are off when you tune it "dead on" and u get horrible beating. Drove me nuts.
Your gonna have to dig online and find most of the info. But the long n short is ... 440=A .. means that the tune of A is at 440 hz. So its basically a reference for the frequency your tuning. 19 limit JI is a Just Intonation. Basically equal temperment at 440hz you would set your tuner at 440hz then tune every note to 0. The problem with that is when you play chords and octaves n such they sound shite. So u have to comprimise somewhere. Hence comprimise tunings and just intonation. Each one has its ups and downs. Check this chart to see how they are set up. The +/- are +or- cents from 0 ... 0 which would be equal temperment. Golden melody is an equal temperment. Anyways hope this helped. Read up on it. I was gonna post s chart but bbqbob did up there. ^^^. Tuning chart. Usually blow 1 is 0 and the rest of the notes are +/- cents which create different desired results. Thats one reason different model harps sound so different from eachother. They all have their own version of different tunings.
I've been trying to use the Peterson istrobosoft app, and I got a couple questions. I'm tuning a G harp. So do I set the root note as D when I'm tuning the draw plate? And G when I tune the blow plate? That is what I did, and I started with tuning the 2 draw, and running my Korg guitar tuner alongside. The app was set at 442. When I got to 5 draw, the guitar tuner told me the note was at 443, the app told me the note was flat. I would expect that note to be relatively flat compared to the root and 5ths, but the phone app wanted me to make it sharper. At that point, I moved to the 6 draw which was reading bang on 443 on the guitar tuner. The app said it was 9 cents sharp. I would've thought 4 cents, tops. So I shut it down and thought I better ask more questions. Maybe I don't know what I'm doing with it. I can't find any real instructions for it. All the Peterson stuff the app links to is just like advertising about how great it is, rather than explanation of how to use it. Why do they even say 'for harmonica in C' on those sweetener packages? Appreciate any insights
You set the root note just like you're in 1st position and that's the correct way to do it. If you look at the harmonica tuning chart that I have posted on this site by first clicking on the tab that says Harmonicas for sale, and another dialog box will open up immediately that will also list harmonica tunings, then click on that link, and then the page opens up to another link, which has this list in a free, downloadable PDF format, you will see exactly why you should be tuning it like firt position. Otherwise, if you use 2nd position as the home tuning, the tuning, when played in real playing breath, will often times get too flat, especially if you have a tendency to play with too much breath force.
Most quartz crystal guitar tuners aren't all that accurate and strobe tuners are much more accurate and every breath force difference will make a HUGE difference.
What it sounds like you've done is set it at the default setting for a guitar and all guitars are tuned to equal temperament and what you should've done is set it to one of the harmonic presets, which would've largely eliminated that problem.
BTW, did you make sure that you got the sweetened tunings setup downloaded?? This is EXTREMELY important because the guitar default set up you're using will automatically force what's been happening to you. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jul 23, 2016 9:28 AM
Thanks Bob. Yes, I'm down with the chart, and I'm using the post 1992 s20 compromise as my default tuning, on customers' harps, when they send sp20s (as is the case in point) I'm also good with the info from Steve baker on that chart about breath force and playing splits to be beat free I have set the tuner to use the sp20 harmonica sweetener, but since it's pretty clear from the charts that the draw chord tuning is based around the chord, and the tuner app asks for the 'root note', it wasn't clear to me whether it was asking for key of harmonica or the root note.I'm not quite sure how it can tell the difference between note G as the root of the blow chord and G as the 4th of the of the draw chord but maybe that's the whole game right there. Anyway, I'll try it again using the G as the root note for the whole harp and see what I get. It was getting too late to think straight last night.
The key marked on every harmonica is the actual root note you're supposed to be using, which is basically 1st position and if you try to use 2nd position as your root note, in certain sweetened tunings some of the notes will be way too sharp or flat and you'll wind up making a mess of things. ONe thing to be aware of is that ALL harmonicas with the exception of the Lee Oskar minor tunings are tuned using 1st position as the root note, meaning that if any harmonica is, for example, tuned to the key of C, then 1st position is key of C and the actual root note is C, plain and simple and remember that when harmonicas were originally designed, they were NEVER originally designed to play anything else but 1st position only. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Sure, but that's a blow chord and a draw chord yeah, and it always seemed to me the draw plate is tuned with respect to the draw chord with the root note in 2 draw. Thus 3rds in 3 draw and 7 draw are flat relative to the 2 draw, just as the 3rds in the blow plate are tuned relative to the 1, 5, 7, 10 blow. So 2, 5, 8 are the 3rds in the blow plate and 3 and 7 are the 3rds in the draw plate. Then the question becomes what to do about the flat 7ths. Looked to me that the old tunings treated them as flat 7ths. But I gather you are telling me those are actually 4ths and tuned relative to the tonic note of the blow plate and the 3 and 7 draw are actually major 7ths of that scale. Thanks for this, it's clearly something I need to get my head around
can't you set your tuner to equal temperament and tune 2 draw to 443 if you want just intonation tune 5 draw to 436 or the modern marine band would be 440 (-12)
Well yeah, that's pretty much how I do it. It's not tuning so much as understanding this software tuner. I couldn't see how it 'knows' the difference between D say, as a root note and D as the 4th of an A chord, when I'm tuning a D harp. But if the 4th of a V chord is the same temperament as the root of a I chord, and the 3rd of a V chord is the same temperament relative to the root as the major 7th of a I chord, then that would be right and I can rest easy. This would make the 5th of a V chord equivalent to the 9th of a I chord...perhaps this is actually how music works and one reason why some chords work nicely together? Or I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely. I thought the draw plate was tuned to the draw chord with the root note in 2 draw and all the other notes tuned relative to that. If they're actually all tuned relative to the blow chord, I've gotta rethink my world and so far it's only been 10 minutes.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 25, 2016 3:45 PM
Tonight I decided to give it another try. I took the iPhone out of its Lifecover. I selected the OMB sweetener. That's original marine band temperament which should have the flattest draw 5 of them all. I selected root note E, because I was gonna tune an E harp. First I tried tuning get draw 1 and draw 4 using the app. I thought if there was a sweetener it probably should be accounting for the usual position of having to tune draw 1 up to 8 cents sharper than draw4 to get the octave split to play clean. Nope. Same old thing. When I tuned them according to the tuner app, the beating indicated the long reed needed to be sharper. Ok, now I know. So I decided I'd tune draw 4 to 6 and proceed upwards. Draw 4 behaved a bit weird, with the tuner showing a bit of inconsistency but I can accept there could be a little variation in breath force, even when I'm playing steady, slide to the next hole and back to find the reading is sharper than before. No big deal, only by a cent or 2. Draw 5 though, should've been flatter than draw 4 if the sweetener for harmonica is doing its thing. Nuh-uh. I checked on my other tuner and found istrobosoft wants to put my draw 5 at 444 Hz, when I'm using 442 as the base. Draw 6 is pretty close to what I'd expect, checked against old reliable. So is draw 4. But draw 5 is way sharp when mr istrobosoft says its bang on. So I can only conclude this is BS. Next step is contact Peterson to see what they have to say about it
Btw, selecting the S20 sweetener now says my 5 draw is a little sharp, so the app thinks that reed should be flatter with post 92 sp20 tuning than with original marine band tuning, so that also seems like BS
The old Marine Band tuning is 7 limit just intonation, which is the Special 20's were originally tuned when they first came out in 1974 until 1985, when both the MB and Sp20's were tune to 19 limit just intonation and since 1992, the same compromise tuning that's on a Sp20 is the exact SAME tuning as the MB since 1992 as well.
One VERY important thing to remember when tuning is the amount of breath force you use. Why? The reason is that even the SLIGHTEST difference in force can throw any tuner completely out of whack and nothing you do will be even remotely close to accurate at all. I constantly keep telling players about cutting down their breath force by at least 50-80% all the time, but it is EQUALLY important when tuning harmonicas and you want to use a MUCH softer breath and if the tuning is right when played soft, it'll be right when played hard, but NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!!!
Super Bee, I really don't think you've paid enough attention the force of your breath during the process and getting too impatient in the process. Strobe tuners tend to be much more sensitive to even the slightest amount of force than a quartz crystal tuner is gonna be. On top of that, you also gotta remember the tuner helps you to get to your goal, but you still need your ears to guide you. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Yeah, it's interesting Bob because I've tuned about 400 harmonicas using a guitar tuner and customers keep coming back. And the 4 and 6 draw look pretty much on the money but the 5 draw is consistently behaving the opposite of what I'd expect ie sharper than than 4 and 6. Re the tunings, that is what I thought. Did I say something different? I've been using the 's20' sweetener but this latest attempt I used the OMB sweetener and the reading of the 5 draw behaved inconsistently with that ie it indicated the OMB 5 draw should be sharper than the post 92 compromise 5 draw. Man, breath force don't I know it. I'm tuning harps for other people, I'm thinking about my breath force, their breath force. It's a big topic for me. My issue isn't about tuning harps, it's about this software app and how to use it. There is one very basic problem I'm having and that is that I'm seeing the app tell me the 5 draw should be about 20 cents sharper than I expect. And relative to other reeds. So I'm not convinced it's working as intended. I'm not saying it's not user error, that's why I raised the topic. But I think my problem isn't breath force or impatience. I'm impatient with continually hitting this same issue when I try to tune s harp using this app, so I guess my grumpy frustration is coming over, but I'm not being hasty in my approach when I'm tuning and listening and making adjustments. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. It's cool that you don't know what's up, I'm not expecting anyone here to solve it for me. I just thought maybe some one here might know about the settings but seems there isn't any particular weirdness there so it's off to Peterson for a chat.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 26, 2016 9:02 PM
From experience tuning to 7 limit just intonation, which is the old Maine Band tuning, 5 draw has always been sort of a wild card and the tuning, even from harp to harp can vary from 27 to 32 cents flat and whenever I do that tuning, completely relying on a tuner can be a downfall and when doing that tuning, the single way to check if you've got any harp tuned to 7LJI right on the nose is to check the note with the other notes in the chord and if there's no beating, you've got it right and you're done.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this little thing here or not, but if you intend to tune 7LJI, there is also a feature where you tune more like the way you'd use an old Conn Strobotuner, especially the much older all tube versions work, where you just set up your root note and then tune in the circle of fifths, so essentially what you're doing is tuning to the harmonic overtone and that tends to work for 7LJI first time, every time.
I'd also suggest that you get in touch with Peterson and see if there are some updates to the software as well as explain the situation because there could well be a glitch somewhere or very possibly compromised by a virus or something that could be making it react that way.
The one tuning set up that they don't have as a preset is 19LJI, which in the case of the iStrobosoft package for the computer and I believe on the IPhone app that you can set up sweetend tunings for that or any other harmonica tuning, such as the Seydel compromise tuning, which is almost the same as 19LJI or the Suzuki Manji tuning, which is essentially ET tuning except that the 3rd of the blow and draw chords are tuned 5 cents flat. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Just let me run this idea past you cats and see what you think of it.
A guy told me that istrobosoft automatically adjusts for the key of harp and I don't need to enter the name of the key. Just select the sweetener and you're good to start. But don't I need to say what key harp somehow? No, it's automatic. This is not a guy from Peterson. To me, that sounds unlikely. What do you all think of that?
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 28, 2016 2:08 AM
I think your unnamed "guy with rep in the harp tech world" hasn't thought this through. Either that, or he doesn't really understand what temperament is.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 28, 2016 1:12 AM
Sorry timeistight, I decided to pull back on it a bit, as you did...but I went a bit further. I decided I better go to the manufacturer and stop pestering others.
I've never used the iStrobosoft tuner. It would make sense though that once you've picked the temperament. Just like any other tuner it would automatically find the notes as you tune. If for example you're tuning to 7 limit JI, then the key of harp is irrelevant surely? Wouldn't the tuner just automatically adjust to that temperament and then away you go. Obviously you'd need to know the notes on each harp yourself as you were tuning it, but other than that surely it'd just work. Or am I missing something?
