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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
best tuner for harmonica
best tuner for harmonica
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JInx
1215 posts
Jul 28, 2016
5:28 AM
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Yes you are missing something. Read up on temperament.
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Kingley
4028 posts
Jul 28, 2016
6:31 AM
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I understand a little about temperament Jinx. Although I certainly wouldn't claim to know a lot about it.
My point though is that surely if the software is pre configured for certain temperaments as the iStrobosoft supposedly is. Then all you'd have to do is play the harp and the notes would be instantly recognised by the tuner just as all other chromatic tuners do. The only difference being that the iStrobosoft would then compensate for the individual cents/hertz adjustment required on each note to attain the desired temperament?
Surely that's the whole point of having preset harmonica tunings in the software?
Why would you have to preset the key to use the tuner?
Does the iStrobosoft work in a different fashion to a standard chromatic tuner?
Are all harps tuned to 7 limit JI as an example not simply tuned to the same +/- cents/hertz?
Surely it's not different +/- for every key harmonica?
I'm interested to hear a more in-depth explanation of the preset harmonica tunings setting(s) on this tuner.
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Thievin' Heathen
795 posts
Jul 28, 2016
6:34 AM
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The flaw in equal temperament is that it is not truly representative of what is going on with the wave forms/frequencies/harmonics. ET is the compromise.
On any digital tuner with alternate temperaments, you will have to tell it the root note (key of the harmonica), for it to know which notes in the scale to deviate form ET.
IMO, the best way to wrap your head around it is to think "sine waves". If an octave is exactly twice the frequency of the root note, you can lay the sine waves on top of each other and see alignment. But, try to imagine the 5th note's sine wave when transitioning up the keyboard through key signatures. To adjust the problem, along came ET or, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead",divide all octaves by 12 equal divisions. ET is a solution to the problem of having to tune or re-tune to every key, but it ain't exactly elegant and not always pretty.
Since we are playing an open tuned instrument, specific in every key, I'll go with JI every time. It isn't exactly right with the keyboards, fretted instruments or saxophones, but the harps sound real good with themselves, and I find that is usually more important than being able to hold a 4th (5 or 9 draw, ~-27 cents in JI) in unison with the piano player. Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jul 28, 2016 6:54 AM
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Kingley
4029 posts
Jul 28, 2016
6:55 AM
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Thanks Joe and Thievin' Heathen. That makes sense.
So once you've picked your preset, then do you tell the iStrobosoft the root note by blowing hole 1 so that the inbuilt logarithms of the harmonica tunings preset can work out what the rest should be set at?
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit dim here. I've never used this software ( I always just use a Korg CA-1) and Just want to know more about it. If it's a better more reliable way of tuning I may look into purchasing it.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jul 28, 2016 6:56 AM
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SuperBee
3956 posts
Jul 28, 2016
7:27 AM
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Yep, that's exactly what I've been asking about because I was getting weird results and wondered if I was setting it wrong.
But I got advice that the app did that automatically.
That made no sense to me
I dropped a few bucks on it based on a recommendation. At least it wasn't a 500 dollar item.
I'm waiting to see what the manufacturer has to say. Personally I reckon it's glitchy.
I reckon the advice I had here about setting the root note in 'temperaments' is correct, but the sweetener program is corrupted
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 28, 2016 7:34 AM
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1847
3593 posts
Jul 28, 2016
7:28 AM
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on a tuner all the notes have a fixed pitch. if you set it up so that a C note is 443HZ Top dead center, then the next note D is 443 plus 4 cents offset . every time you play a D note it will be 4 cents sharp
so if you now switch to a D harp, your root note will be 4 cents sharp.. the C notes is now a flat 7
set to 443 tdc. if the tuner has a transpose function, it is like using a capo on a guitar.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 28, 2016 7:30 AM
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STME58
1787 posts
Jul 28, 2016
8:08 AM
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This has been an informative discussion. I have always used an ET tuner and made the required adjustments from there. I recently started using a software tuner from Seydel that has a selection fo ET , just or compromised. It has a wheel where you select the key of the harmonica. It is so harmonica specific it shows you which hole you are playing and if the note is bend or overbent. I have not tested it to see if it can tell the difference between the same note generated with different techniques.
CORRECTION: the Seydel tuner lists draw and blow bends and does not deal with overbends.
One thing that makes discussions on topics like this more confusing is the tendency for folks (myself included) to interchange the terms "tonic" and "root". This is not surprising as on a I chord, either term is an accurate description of the bottom note of the chord. The tonic remains the same until you change key, the root changes every time you change chords.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 28, 2016 10:16 AM
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1847
3594 posts
Jul 28, 2016
8:31 AM
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that is a good point... on a D harp the note is C#
not a C
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timeistight
2028 posts
Jul 28, 2016
8:52 AM
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@Kingsley: in just intonation (JI) each key has it's own unique set of notes. For example, "A" in Bb major isn't the same frequency as the A notes in C, D, E, F or G major. They're close in the closely related keys, but not the same.
That's why Equal Temperment was invented. Just tuned keyboards could not play in tune in all twelve keys without being retuned.
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Kingley
4030 posts
Jul 28, 2016
9:43 AM
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Thanks everyone for the information. Very helpful indeed.
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STME58
1788 posts
Jul 28, 2016
10:14 AM
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If you are really interested in getting a handle on temperament, I highly recommend a book I found about about from Nate on this site, "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)", by professor Ross W. Duffin.
The fundamental predicament is that the octave is clearly defined by physics as a doubling or halving of the frequency. In tune octaves are naturally pleasing to the ear. A perfect fifth is also clearly defined by the physics as 3/2 of the root frequency and this also sounds pleasing to the ear. The trouble is, if I start at Low Low A = 110 and go up 7 octaves, I get 110, 220, 440, 880, 1760, 3520, 7040, 14080. If I start at LLA and go up by fifths 12 times to get back to A, A (110),E(165),B(247.5),F#(371.25),C#(556.88),Ab(835.31),Eb(1252.97),Bb(1879.45),F(2819.18),C(4228.77) G(6343.15),D(9514.73),A(14272.1) the A 7 octaves up we get by the two methods dictated by the physics of the intervals are not the same. The octave method gives 14080 and the fifths method gives 14272. No matter what you do, this is just screwed up, fifths and octaves are the most fundamental intervals in music and they do not play well with each other! The various temperaments are ways to deal with this little joke the gods seem to have played on musicians!
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barbequebob
3265 posts
Jul 28, 2016
10:46 AM
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Many years ago, Pat Missin, a person whose knowledge about the harmonica I have ENORMOUS respect for and one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to harmonica, used to have a site called Just Intonation.Net and it had EVERY single historical temperament that has been used throughout the centuries, many of which I had never heard of and it made me wonder just on listening to classical music made prior to the 1700's (the years before equal temperament essentially became standard) how all of those classical pieces would've really sounded like when played in the correct historical temperament.
Harpwrech is so dead on that you have to find the root note FIRST, which, as far as I'm concerned, would've been the single most obvious thing to do. In my explanation of how those old Conn Strobotuners worked where you can tune to 7LJI by tuning to the harmonic overtones and then do everything in the circle of 5ths REQUIRES that you set up BOTH the root note FIRST (on a key of C harmonica, it's obvious that the root note is C) and then tune in the circle of 5ths, so in the key of C, once you've got the root note set up, tune the root note to the exact pitch standard, and in 7LJI or even 19LJI for that matter, the actual root note is ALWAYS at ET, and then from C, the 5th of the C chord is G, then tune to the harmonic overtone and once the wavering of the strobe stops, you're done. Now, then the 5th of G is D, and then follow the same process.
With pianos, which are all tuned ET, there is another thing called stretch tuning and that means for each octave above or below middle C, the same note is 2 cents sharp, meaning 1st octave above or below is 2 cents sharp, then the following octave is 2 cents sharper than the previous octave, etc., etc., etc.
JI has everything in absolute PURE and TRUE harmony wheras ET won't have that at all and calling ET a compromise is essentially correct and when this tuning was devised in the 1700's, they KNEW that chords would always wind up sounding really rough and with some instruments, very markedly so and on a piano, if you take a look at where the hammer strikes the string to play the note, the position of that hammer is VITAL to help cut down on a number of the upper harmonic overtones, mainly the odd numbered ones and if the hammer is in any other position, ET on a piano would absolutely NEVER work at all and every chord would sound much harsher than it actually does.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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