Popculture Chameleon
103 posts
Nov 24, 2015
11:12 AM
|
I have been playing for almost a year and probably fell into a lot of the same traps that many beginning harmonica players fall into. From choosing the right harmonica to snagging the wrong pedals for a pedal board and the type of amp to get.
So for now I have been rethinking everything and trying to plan ahead on what I want to get. Especially since I'm trying to design and build a custom case for my gear.
For now this is what my train of thought has been.
I have a Roland Mobile Cube 5 watt amp that I will be using as a practice amp for home use.( I figure anything any bigger and I might tick off my neighbors in my apartment complex) I have a Shaker Mad Dog mic plugged into it. Also have a Shure green bullet. And a 545 mic from Blows me away.
As for the New Pedal board I only want a small handful of pedals. The core of the group would be a Harp Attack and Harp Delay from LWB. (These two pedals will make up the core of my sound especially when learning harmonica songs from Walter-Butterfield-etc.) the rest are for fun and experimentation. I want to use some kind of tremolo pedal and a ehx pitch fork- so I can have fun experimenting with new wild sounds and tunes in my own time. A ditto looper x2 for looping and a ehx silencer pedal. I have even thought of getting an expression pedal as well but I'm not a 100% on that train of though. Once I get more proficient in my playing and start doing some live gigs I will get a Harp train 10 amp.
This is my train of thought- when learning the old school basics I would only use the LWB pedals and my amp- but once I start making up my own tunes I want to carve my own path by experimenting with some wild effects pedal sounds.
So I guess I'm asking a few things at once.
Do you guys think I'm on the right track
What would be a good option for a tremolo pedal I have seen online demos of the Super Pulsar (not with Harmonica) but I know there are plenty of other tremolo fish in the sea- and finally
would adding an expression pedal like the cry baby or the like be a little to much overkill.
Let me know what you think. and Thank you
|
JInx
1121 posts
Nov 24, 2015
11:46 AM
|
Forget all that and just focus on acoustic tone and music.
----------
|
didjcripey
996 posts
Nov 24, 2015
12:30 PM
|
If you want to experiment, I'd suggest a multi effects pedal. It will give you everything in one and plenty of options. Something like a zoom G1 should do. You'll probably find like most effect pedals that its fine for home use, but as soon as you play out and need volume, feedback will be an issue. If you're like me, you'll end up just using a little delay and maybe one of the Lone Wolf pedals (harp break or octave).
----------
Lucky Lester
|
Rontana
218 posts
Nov 24, 2015
12:50 PM
|
I could see the small practice amp, maybe the looper if you also play guitar and want to do your own jam tracks. As for the rest, I'd forget the electronics for awhile and work on tone, accurate bends, speed, octaves, technique, etc.
That said, maybe you've already got all that down.
|
blueswannabe
585 posts
Nov 24, 2015
3:52 PM
|
if you want really honest advice, listen to and study all the great players, practice on your acoustic tone, timing and phrasing and chord changes. The better you get the better your amp will sound. Gauranteed!
|
rogonzab
843 posts
Nov 24, 2015
4:37 PM
|
+2 Jinx
----------
Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
|
rogonzab
844 posts
Nov 24, 2015
4:37 PM
|
+2 Jinx
----------
Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
|
Komuso
655 posts
Nov 24, 2015
4:39 PM
|
+2.5 jinx
+ the multifx advice
But I wouldn't use a Zoom G1 as the later models have better dsp chips and hence better harmonics and amp emulation richness. The Zoom G3 has a 4th gen dsp chip and an amp model FD Vibro which is the best one I've found for harp on the Zoom models (and I've been using them from their very first model the 9002)
----------
Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Nov 24, 2015 4:39 PM
|
Kingley
3966 posts
Nov 24, 2015
11:25 PM
|
It would seem the spam monkey stole my last post. So here's another go.
Jinx is bang on the money here. If I were you I'd be doing just what he says. Have an amp and mic by all mean for fun use. I'd say you need to be spending 90% of your time playing acoustically though, building those foundational techniques and learning the craft. Every good player regardless of what they play or what effects they may or may
not use, did exactly that. See here's the thing. All those guys sound great because they have worked on a acoustic tone and technique for a very long time, prior to plugging into amps and effects. Go on You Tube and watch Jason Ricci play acoustically and talk about straight into an amp versus effects if you doubt what everyone is saying. There are no shortcuts and the only way is through hard work and intelligent learning. I'd say leave the pedals be and concentrate on the playing first and foremost. Probably not what you really want to hear. It is though as BBQ Bob would say, the plain hard cold brutal truth.
|
Littoral
1300 posts
Nov 25, 2015
12:12 AM
|
...piling on maybe but I'll venture a guess:
Very rare would be the player that could articulate precise individual notes (all bends with correct intonation) after playing for less than a year.
You already have excellent gear. If your "own path" depends on sounds from gear then it's not really you. Plenty cool for a song or a solo but then it gets gimmicky real quick -in your words, traps.
Back to the woodshed.
I'm working on some new stuff now and it's kicking my ass. I've played seriously for almost 40 years. I will conquer.
Last Edited by Littoral on Nov 25, 2015 12:13 AM
|
didjcripey
998 posts
Nov 25, 2015
1:17 AM
|
All true, and good tone and technique takes years to develop. In the meantime, mucking around with effects can be a way to keep up the interest and have fun.
It can also help develop awareness of attack and dynamics, as certain effects (say auto wah) are very sensitive to attack and articulation.
Littoral says: 'if your "own path" depends on sounds from gear then it's not really you'...
maybe; but maybe not.. you might create a whole new sound and approach
----------
Lucky Lester
|
Littoral
1301 posts
Nov 25, 2015
4:57 AM
|
Maybe. But I couldn't think of anybody that has so far. Including Leo Fender or Little Walter.
|
Kingley
3967 posts
Nov 25, 2015
5:04 AM
|
"In the meantime, mucking around with effects can be a way to keep up the interest and have fun."
True. One could also argue that if simply learning to play the harmonica isn't enough to keep up your interest. Then maybe you've picked the wrong instrument.
The most important thing to remember is that you need to stand before you can walk. The more time you spend learning the basics and getting them right. The easier and better things will be down the line. If you merely skim over them, then your foundations won't be good enough and you'll either fail at some point, or have to go back to the basics and relearn stuff. Trying to get rid of bad habits is a very hard thing to do. Much better to learn good habits from day one.
Last Edited by Kingley on Nov 25, 2015 5:05 AM
|
Martin
930 posts
Nov 25, 2015
8:01 AM
|
Once again a forum member asks for gear advice, but, it seems to me, is mostly taken to school.
Let me say that "good acoustic tone" and "interesting musical ideas" are given things. Given insofar as they stand for something we all need to work on: to achieve and then maintain.
But the OP says explicitly "pedal advice sought". And s/he obviously has quite a bit of money to spend on stuff (which makes me jealous).
From what I gather the Harp Attack is a nice investment; something for reverb/delay is also wise.
I would not spend money on a tremolo pedal, based on what I have heard, and I´d probably abstain from expression pedals and such.
Those mics and the HA and reverb/delay will take you a long way and I´d sit tight with them, while "working on my tone and musical ideas".
Then I´d download Audacity (free) or another recording program to monitor my advances.
The money I save would go to a nice trip abroad, and the rest would probably end up with my local bartender (-- but that´s just me).
|
arnenym
363 posts
Nov 25, 2015
10:36 AM
|
+1 on Martin.
Many rude members on this forum..
Please.. If you don't like pedals, do not answer..
|
nacoran
8789 posts
Nov 25, 2015
10:58 AM
|
I'm of the thought that if you have cash to burn on pedals there is nothing wrong with that. If I could afford a good loop pedal that would probably be my first purchase, but that's my own curiosity, plus the people I've seen who use them well learn them almost like another instrument, which means you'll need to put in a lot of practice with it, which means the sooner you get started with it, if that's a direction you want to go the better.
Most other pedals have an easier learning curve, so you can pick them up as your budget allows. Right now I have 3 pedals- and old multi-FX Vox vocal pedal that I play around with sometimes, a bypass pedal a friend gave me and a gain pedal that I can use to get my quiet vocals up to the same volume as my harp. I can get a pretty good range of tone with my amp- two gain knobs, master volume, bass, middle, treble and reverb. My mic is the lower end Shure Prologue but it has an on off switch for those moments when I have to get close to the amp.
I will say, when you start having to lug things around, that sometimes simple is better. The important thing to remember though is that everyone is looking for a different sound, so unless you have an example of wanting to sound like a specific player on a specific song the best way to figure out what you want is to get places where you can play around with different combinations. There is a certain chemistry between pedals that changes how they interact and the best way to test and find what you want is to actually play with as many as you can.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
S-harp
237 posts
Nov 25, 2015
12:02 PM
|
+1 Martin 'n Arnenym
----------
The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
|
SuperBee
2985 posts
Nov 25, 2015
2:58 PM
|
the questions in the OP:
."do you guys think i'm on the right track?"
.What would be a good option for a tremolo pedal?
.would adding an expression pedal like the cry baby or the like be a little to much overkill?
If the answer to Q1 is "No", Q2 and Q3 become redundant.
it is not rude to answer Q1 in the negative. It is perhaps rude to call your fellow forum members rude for answering a question in good faith, but i can see how confusion could set in when one person slightly misreads a situation and his mates jump on behind. this is how bar brawls start i think
|
indigo
184 posts
Nov 25, 2015
3:42 PM
|
+1 for Supe,makes sense to me
|
Martin
932 posts
Nov 25, 2015
4:17 PM
|
Not to make a big thing out of this and certainly not to start a digital bar brawl, but Superbee, isn´t it a fair assumption that the OP asks if s/he is on the right track when it comes to *pedals*? Some pedals already bought (or anyway decided upon) and then advice sought for other pedals to buy?
|
SuperBee
2987 posts
Nov 25, 2015
4:58 PM
|
Hi Martin:
I didn't express an explicit view about who was misreading, but I see this:
"... This is what my train of thought has been ... Do you guys think I'm on the right track?"
Surely it's fair to reply as Jinx did?
I concede that since I seconded the response, I must also accept it was on the blunt side, but ultimately whether it's relevant is not for me to say. It seemed relevant to me. Your response was also valid except imho insofar as it berated the other members who had 'taken to school' the OP. However, Arne's response lifts the bar and calls us all rude, and then for good measure your countryman S-harp yells encouragement from the rear...
I don't care how member popculture chameleon wants to spend money, but my advice on pedals mentioned would be much as Jinx offered. I really don't think that's deserving of a calling out by others for rudeness
|
hvyj
2827 posts
Nov 25, 2015
5:24 PM
|
After a Delay pedal, my next "must have" pedal is the TC Electronic Vortex Flanger.
To a certain extent, some amps get along better with some pedals than others. So, if resources allow, it makes sense to put together different pedalboards for different amps.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 25, 2015 5:30 PM
|
Kingley
3969 posts
Nov 25, 2015
9:28 PM
|
I agree with Superbee but I also hear what you're saying Martin. To me the advice Jinx, Superbee and myself gave was good sound solid advice. Bearing in mind that the OP has been playing for less than a year.
He has also been given advice by plenty of others on the specifics of pedals. So it all evens itself out.
My personal take is that anything any of us can do to point beginners in the right direction and put them on a path that can save them making the mistakes many of us did, is only ever a good thing. I'd be willing to bet that about 90% of the long time players on this forum spent years and lots of money trying to figure some things out about how to do certain things. If in anyway, any of us can minimise that journey or financial cost for someone else, then surely that's a good thing? Given that to mine and others minds that it is, then I'd say the replies given to the OP were valid. Sorry if that upsets you or anyone else in anyway, but it's just my view on it. I can say hand on heart that if someone had told me these types of things when I was stating out. I'd be a much better musician today than I am and would also be a lot richer from the money I would have saved myself.
I'd also add that if someone were going to experiment with pedals. That I would think for cost and ease that buying a decent multi effects pedal like the DigiTech RP series would seem the more common sense route to me, rather than numerous pedals that may or may not play well with each other. That way a person could figure out what works and what doesn't, before deciding on a more finalised set of pedals.
Last Edited by Kingley on Nov 25, 2015 10:02 PM
|
didjcripey
999 posts
Nov 25, 2015
10:00 PM
|
Confucious say: 'many paths to one destination'
----------
Lucky Lester
|
Martin
933 posts
Nov 26, 2015
5:36 AM
|
Thank you guys for not stepping on the conflict accelerator (but I noted that Superbee hinted at a small Swedish conspiracy here: yeah, we work in sly and nefarious ways, despite persistent rumours of us being ... swedes). This is mostly a very civil forum and that´s the way, a-ha a-ha, I like it.
My recollection is that the Popculture Chameleon not long ago posed another gear oriented question here, whereupon he immediately was told things like "work on your tone" etc. Which is good and well - if he had asked, "Do I need to work on my tone" and provided an example. (PC has been playing for "almost one year" -- unless he´s a freak of nature he very probably needs to work on his tone.)
Maybe this earlier query to some extent was reflected in my reply.
Obviously PC also has quite a bit of interest in the technology side of things and that was how I read his question, now and a couple of weeks ago.
No big deal. And if you read this, Chameleon, I repeat -- you must work on your tone.
Every day.
After that you can have fun with all them pedals.
|
Grey Owl
502 posts
Nov 26, 2015
6:11 AM
|
Martin :)....but aren't a-ha Norwegian? ;)
|
Martin
934 posts
Nov 26, 2015
7:10 AM
|
@Oh so true, Grey Owl, but when you double them up they bring back an echo of the evil 70´s, when the masses were seduced by the likes of KC & The Sunshine Band. They may even have hit the British Isles -- I believe no one was spared.
|
isaacullah
3098 posts
Nov 26, 2015
8:08 AM
|
I will +1 on komuso's advice. The Zoom G3 is great as a multifx unit. Its also got a great single channel looper and a decent drum maxhine with a lot of patterns (great for praxticing to). Just don't rely on it for the amp models, which are generally inferior to other amp models I've heard. But if you've got a lone wolf harp attack or whatever, then you don't need amp models anyway! If you don't want all the bells and whistles, you can get the Zoom multistomp, which is just a single stomp button, but all the same fx as in the G3 (or thereabouts). Cheaper too.
Edit: just looked over on the Zoom website. Probably what you really want is the Multistomp Chorus/Delay/Reverb. It'll get your tremolo and then some!
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
Last Edited by isaacullah on Nov 26, 2015 8:13 AM
|
Popculture Chameleon
105 posts
Nov 26, 2015
8:25 AM
|
I know a lot of people on here don't like effect pedals but honestly some of this is my own fault- I'll answer a couple of questions first
1 yes I still am working on my tone. My harp of choice the Hohner Rocket
2 the reason I want to use these effects pedals are for backing tracks through a looper pedal and go back to the harmonicas original sound i.e. the harp attack and delay pedals as the main part of my music. Think of it as a one man band kind of scenario.
To answer another question- yes I am fascinated by electronics gear- always have been
Komuso thank you for the multi effects advice that's actually a great idea= if you have or know of any videos of the zoom g3 being used with harmonica please let me know.
Honestly acoustic tone is something I'm not very fond of I like playing through an amp- even if it is without effects pedals it just sounds better to my own ears. That is how I am practicing with my Roland Mobile cube now straight into the amp no effects set on a clean amp setting. Hope this helps out a little more
|
Littoral
1302 posts
Nov 26, 2015
12:20 PM
|
"Many rude members on this forum.."
Lot's of kind advise, I think. Some of it was direct but none of it personal. Not withstanding some being accused of being rude.
|
hvyj
2828 posts
Nov 26, 2015
12:30 PM
|
I never play acoustic except around the house when I practice. I consider my microphone a part of my instrument . The cliche that your electric tone is determined by your acoustic tone is not entirely correct. Your mic handling technique also plays a very substantial role. Personally, I have never understood why amps that generate a shit load of distortion are considered to have "good tone." All that distortion masks whatever tone the player may or may not have. And it severely limits the player's timbral options.
I play with or without pedals depending on the gig. Most of the musicians I play with encourage me to use pedals and the venue owners/managers often comment favorably and are interested in how I get certain sounds.Those guys typically listen to live bands several days a week, and running a harp through electronics (so long as you are selective and don't overdo it) catches their interest since it's something they don't hear all the time. It also gives me more artistic freedom and greater control over my sound.
Of course, you need to spend time fooling around with the equipment figuring out how to use it, what sounds you can get, and how to dial in whatever sounds are useful for your musical objectives. I use pedals that respond to variations in playing technique and work well in combination with one another. So, you've got to make adjustments in playing technique and phrasing to make the pedals sound good. They are not just sound effects. It's almost like playing a different instrument. I find it interesting and the audiences seem to like it. It's fun and gives me musical options I would not otherwise have available. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 26, 2015 1:45 PM
|
Komuso
656 posts
Nov 26, 2015
4:54 PM
|
@PopcultureChameleon
"if you have or know of any videos of the zoom g3 being used with harmonica please let me know"
I don't have any videos but have some soundcloud experiments using the G3. Some of them use Native Instruments Guitar Rig.
Komuso's 2015 Mashups
These are all live jams recorded direct so pretty rough.
Mic is a stock Strnad on a rack, which you can see on the first track embed image in one of my now rare real life gigs.
I don't really aim to get close to a traditional chicago harp sound (much as I love it) so the Strnad is actually ok for me.
I also experiment with a few effects, though the really wacky ones are in Guitar Rig.
I don't mind the FD Vibro amp model on the G3 for harp, and some of the others are pretty good for guitar. ymmv!
Sometimes you can hear a "harshness" with digital FX (there's a few bits in some of the tracks below) but that's more my technique not being smooth enough on the note transitions and generating harsh harmonics. That and embouchure (tongue blocking practice as I used to be just LP) are two things I'm working on atm.
I think better acoustic technique, as a few people pointed out, can clean this up.
As they say in the IT world, garbage in garbage out and it's the same with music and FX units;-)
The G3 tracks are:
----------
Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Nov 26, 2015 5:11 PM
|
dougharps
1055 posts
Nov 27, 2015
8:23 AM
|
@Komuso
A few hours before you posted I thought about the old thread in which Frank challenged us to play creatively over the backing track for Rollercoaster. In particular I recalled your use of effects and your playing in the above video. I even searched out the old thread and listened to it again. I really was impressed at the time, enough to remember it when this discussion continued. Now here it is...
My diatonic effort and chromatic effort in that same challenge thread used a multi effect unit for different effects, too. Just because we encourage developing acoustic harmonica technique and tone doesn't mean that we disdain the use of pedals/effects in addition to using playing techniques. They can each support the other in creating unique sounds and serving our musical expression.
----------
Doug S.
|
Thievin' Heathen
633 posts
Nov 27, 2015
12:13 PM
|
To the OP, I just bought a Zoom MS 70CDR. Lot's of chorus, flanger, phaser, tremolo, reverb, & EQ pedal models to experiment with. Read up on one, it is harp friendly. I bet you can find a place for it on your board.
|
Komuso
657 posts
Nov 27, 2015
4:49 PM
|
@dougharps Thanks! And I fully agree. FX are a whole new area of expertise to explore. You can use them just as an effect (adding slapback delay, reverb etc) or you can go full throttle and turn them into a complete new instrument. I do both. Sometimes I don't use any at all and just play clean into the mic.
The instrument approach is a really interesting one, but it may only suit one song or a very specific style. But that's no different to the "traditional" chicago harp sound is it? That's just an acoustic tone modulated by hand/mic compression into a tube amp with some very specific effects (which could include a cardboard tube echo chamber;=).
Bo Diddley was a monster effects experimenter, as were many blues players and rockers after them.
Hound Dog Taylor famously slashing his speaker cone to get a "better" sound! Awesome thinking!
The ultimate decision is "What works for this song?"
----------
Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Nov 27, 2015 6:07 PM
|
