Hey guys. I've recently got interested about learning how to overblow. So I made some research and there seems to be two ways to go for the overblow, two separate paths to follow: Howard Levy, and some web pages recommend practising the 8 hole blow bend and then aiming to do the same at the 6 blow to start to get them, while players like Adam and Jason Ricci go for the 6 draw bend shape, to then attack the blow.
So, what's worked for you? Are both ways practical and equally good?
I speak with VERY little authority on the subject, as I CAN overblow, but I am not very good at it and don't make much use of OBs in my playing.
What worked for me was trying like crazy to learn how to OB early on in my playing experience, only to be met with failure and finally say "forget it! I'm moving on without you overblows. Who needs you anyway?" I then went on playing for maybe about 3, years hardly even giving OBing a second thought, until I read a post here one day that inspired me to give it another go, and sure enough... I could do it. Didn't sound good/musical, but believe it or not, it was now relatively easy.
I know that's not really the answer you are looking for. (For what it's worth: I think my first success was birthed from the "6 draw bend shape, to then attack the blow" approach.) But all that to say, the better developed your all-around technique on the instrument it, the easier OBing will be... Uhhh duh... That sounds really dumb and obvious now that I put it in words...
Again, sorry for not answering your question directly, but I hope this gets the ball rolling and others chime in. You've got me curious now too.
Tom ---------- Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars.
Last Edited by TBird on Nov 22, 2015 1:05 PM
TBird, every reply is aprecciated and helpful in some way.
I've been playing harp for year/year and a half, and I am able to do almost every technique: lip pursing, tongue blocking right and left, with all the percussive techniques, draw bends every step, blow bends, octaves, vibratos, etc. I'm working on that amazing tongue split that makes sound 2 holes of the harp intermitently, as my attempts on that sound really bad (I don't know the name of that technique, but if my description was not good enough here is a video of Kim Wilson nailing it -https://youtu.be/SiSQ2RgXFu8?t=2m40s)
I think my overall technique is pretty decent to try overblowing now. I want to play some melodies, and I'm always missing the notes overblowing can give me. That's the reason for me wanting to learn it.
I really consider that if I practice it, and with some guidance, I could be overblowing pretty soon!
Last Edited by JohnRed on Nov 22, 2015 7:24 PM
I couldn't get the reverse-the-draw-bend method to work for me. Maybe I wasn't able to keep my embouchure steady while changing breath direction.
The blow-bend method is what finally got me there. When I think about it, it's what makes more sense anyway. If you do it slowly, you can hear that you are bending the blow reed down a little bit before it chokes and the draw reed starts to sound.
But the draw-bend method works for lots of people; you may be one of them. Keep trying them both until you get it.
Last Edited by timeistight on Nov 24, 2015 3:56 PM
Overblows are not at all that hard (as some people might think). BUT - your harp must be set up to allow the overblow to happen. The blow reed must be gapped tight enough to choke, or you can blow all you want and nothing will happen. I personally find 6 ob the easiest and the most useful when playing blues. Well it's pretty much the only overblow I set up and use, but I also find the 6 ob essential. One way to get going: Start by removing cover plates. Hold a finger over 6 blow reed, so it doesnt sound when you blow. Now blow until you get the ob to sound. I don't believe in trying to hit the ob right spot on - you have to search for the resonance. A trick is to pretend you are blowing into a bottle to make it sing. he technique is quite similar as well so it should work. Lets say you don't know how much water there is in the bottle. It could be empty, half full or almost full. So you search the resonance. Start by blowing like the bottle is empty, then slowly moving your tone resonance upwards until you would blow like the bottle is full with water, and on the way you should hit the resonating tone. This is also kind of how you would bend the note or adjust to play it in key, because the tone can span a good couple halfnotes. Remember to keep a pretty constant pressure on your blow. If you hear a tiny resonate, it might be the note and you need to increase air pressure slightly to make it "pop".
So now you know how to make the ob sound, and that's pretty much it. Adjsut you blow reed gapping by closing it until you can make the ob sound with you technique you have discovered. If you close the reed gap too much, the blow reed might get stuck in a choked position, so you have to find the sweet spot. I have found it can also help to close up the draw gap to make the ob pop in a little easier.
Yes that's it, practice and improve it, try to reverse 6 draw bend, blow bend shapes or whatever, to perfect you technique.
This worked for me, hopefully some of it will help you.
i failed at it for a long time, trying to do the 6 draw bend and reverse method. then Jimi Lee mentioned to me that it was quite similiar to 8 blow bend. my blow bends were pretty hit and miss too. thats what got me started on learning to blow bend properly. after i worked on my blow bend embouchure strength...by playing bright lights big city everyday for 5 minutes or more..i tried the overblow 6 and there it was.
year and a half and you have all those techniques...thats good going. i've been at it 20 years or so and still working on it. starting to get some of it.
funnily enough...i'd never really cared enough about the blow bends to bother working on them properly, i hated all that brain splitting high end stuff...and even when i did start working on them, it was only a means to another end else...but serendipitously i discovered that being able to play with fluency on the top end is most fun i've ever had with the harmonica...
What dragon breath says is worth a bazillion dollars.
I only use the 6ob . I set my reed gaps such that over blows on other holes would be nearly impossible .
If the harp is set up right, I don't have to think about the technique,it just pops with no effort . If the harp is not set up for it,it is very breathy and or squeals .
But I learned with the finger on the blow reed method,and masking tape too. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Nov 23, 2015 9:35 PM
The reason different techniques work for different people is the difference in embouchures. Not a one size fits all. Technique, relaxation, tilt, etc. all play a part in what makes an overblow sound. (pop implies pressure build-up and sudden release..not needed). Harp set up is a given. ---------- www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
Thanks to everyone for their replies. I have been trying to get the overblow with the draw bend shape/embouchure, and I have only achieved a whistling sound. Is this a good sign?
Dragonbreat/shakeylee: in order to try this finger thing I assume I should be playing with the lower cover plate still on the harp, right?
We had that conversation not 2 month ago, pretty interesting one. you are lucky: http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5489392.htm
As for my position, i am on the do the bend, then reverse your airflow and overbend train. Your goal should be to have the same techniques for both type of notes for a lots of reason (accuracy, agility, speed, timbre, articulation, ect...) Overblow should be learned at the same time as bends, otherwise you risk having to relearn to bend from scratch, even breathe through the harp in the worst case.
I like the blow bend method as that is what worked for me after trying all the other methods.
Below is a good video explaining and demonstrating how it's done.
The biggest problem is not knowing how it should feel when trying to play them as it doesn't feel like a normal blow bend where both reeds interact to produce the sound.
If you know how to blow bend simply try and blow bend hole 6 or 5 or 4 (you will find that there is not the same smooth transition as when blow bending holes 7, 8 and above, where the blow note glides down uniformly to the bent note)but rather the blow reed bends a little then stops sounding or stalls and it's at this point you have to keep maintaining the steady air pressure until the draw reed sounds the overblow.
I found the stall sometimes accompanied with squeaks (which I put down to a failed attempt) off putting and this prevented me from maintaining the air flow necessary to produce the overblow. When it sounds it feels like its come out of the blue and not at all like a normal blow bend.
My motivation to play them was the same as yours, to use them in melodies and I have found them very handy. They are definitely much easier to play than the draw 3 bends in pitch, as the overblow note just appears rather than you having to manoeuvre the bend to the correct pitch.
I have also tried to demonstrate the method on an A Harp HERE All the best.
Lots of good advice on this thread. I do like Dragonbreath’s explanation. Here’s one key that I have found useful – both in terms of technique and nomenclature. When we play, for example a 3 draw and then bend the note down, we know instinctively that we are lowering the pitch. So we make our oral cavity bigger to increase the size of the resonance chamber. This is true whether you are draw bending or blow bending. However, when you Overblow (or OverDraw), you are raising the pitch of the note, so you have to make the resonance chamber smaller. Just try this with whistling a note and observe what happens with your tongue as you lower the pitch or raise the pitch. This is the same thing that should be going on in your mouth when are bending reeds. The nomenclature part of this is when you “Over”blow or “Over”draw, think over, above or higher – as in you are producing a higher note. That might help us understand. I have lots of conversations with guys who say they overblow when they really have no idea what they are talking about. (No disrespect). They think that overblow means they play too loud, as in, “You’re overdoing it.” Sometimes they think that blow bends are overblows. It is important to understand the distinction. Getting the idea of lowering the pitch vs. raising the pitch helps.
Moving on, once you have learned how to hit an overblow, more than likely you are still a long way away from actually being able to use them in your music. If you can only hit an OB 6 about half the time or if you struggle to hit it instantly and cleanly, you’re going to have a hard time using it in your music. When you are noodling around or practicing – that’s one thing. You can be less than perfect. But when you are making music, when the time comes to play that note, it has to be there. Not some of the time. Not most of the time. Every time. Half the time or a little late because you are struggling is not good enough.
But having said that, I will now contradict myself. Iceman has repeatedly stated on this forum that the biggest obstacle we face in learning how to overblow or overdraw is the mental obstacle we place in front of ourselves by creating the belief that it is difficult or an “Advanced Technique”. He’s right. We set up mental roadblocks and I will confess that I was and am a victim of that self-imposed limitation. I’m getting over it and I want to give Iceman credit for helping me break through that barrier. Here’s what I am referring to. I’ve been overblowing for about 3 years but while playing music, whenever I knew that there was an overblow coming, it was like, “Here it comes – don’t choke!” And of course, I would. But lately, I have learned to relax and treat overblows and overdraws as “just another note” and not make such a big deal out of them. They really are no different from draw bends or blow bends. I’m not there 100% yet, but I suspect that what is holding me back is more mental than physical. Yes, the harp has to be set up properly to facilitate the technique, but once that is taken care of and you have dome some woodshedding, just play.
---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Nov 25, 2015 9:59 AM
To answer your question John, no you actually don't have to have coverplates on, just watch out so your lip doesn't obstruct the draw reed. If you want to have cover plates on, Shakeylee's tip about putting some masking tape over blow reed slot then putting on cover plates sounds good.
I can just add that I don't completely agree with Grey Owl about the OB note being there automatically in pitch when sounded. It IS like a bend, and can span a couple halfnotes. It will probably be close to pitch but you still have to adjust/bend it so remember that, just sounding the OB certainly doesn't mean it is automatically in pitch.
Dragonbreath 'I can just add that I don't completely agree with Grey Owl about the OB note being there automatically in pitch when sounded. It IS like a bend, and can span a couple halfnotes. It will probably be close to pitch but you still have to adjust/bend it so remember that, just sounding the OB certainly doesn't mean it is automatically in pitch.'
Agreed. I was speaking in general terms not wishing to muddy the waters too much. I found my first overblow close enough in pitch to be personally acceptable unlike the multiple off pitch notes that were readily available when I first learnt to draw bend on hole 3!
The manipulation of the OB to produce multiple notes came a bit later and took quite a bit of work on technique and harp adjustment. To be honest I was so relieved when I first found the OB that concern about exact pitch was well off the radar.
I know this is a really old post, and I'm sorry to revive it. But...
(Middle octave, first position, C harp)
Regarding the topic of the post, I got my first overblow with the blow bend shape on the 6, as draw bend shape was not working at all. I could get nothing going with the blow shape on the 5, so I eventually got it to pop with the draw bend shape. And then, 4 and 6 followed. Thanks to everyone for the advice given when I orginally posted this. Fluency is my next step on the road. And maybe 1 OB, some day.
I forgot to mention JohnRed that sounds really nice! Well done!
...
The only things I can add to what has already been said are the following:
- Any bend (draw bend, blow bend, overblow, overdraw) is the result of resonance affecting both reeds. One reed is affected to vibrate at a certain frequency and the other reed is affected to stop moving altogether. The correct technique - no matter how you break it down - means that you control the size of the air pocket in your mouth to create that resonance frequency. It's very specific, so the exact size of the air pocket is important.
- As you draw air in, the soft tissues of your oral cavity get sucked in. The higher flow, the more they get sucked in. The lower flow, the less they get sucked in. We contract muscles to pull outwards to keep the size of the air pocket constant despite increased or decreased flow.
- As you blow outwards, the soft tissues will expand. Again, how much is proportional to how much air we are moving. We contract *different* muscles (than in the previous paragraph) to pull the soft tissues back in to keep the air pocket size constant.
- We use those same muscles all day long as we speak, chew, swallow, cough, whistle, kiss, etc... There is a dense collection of nerves in the areas of these muscles and they are controlled by a very developed part of your brain. Some of these muscles are under both voluntary and involuntary control.
THEREFORE: I argue that in some cases, it may be best to have just a general sense of what you need to do (I.E. create and air pocket of a certain size) and let your mouth and ears figure out exactly how to do it. Everyone's anatomy is different. The way one player describes how they do it may not be exactly true for someone else.
That being said, it's easy to develop bad habits. An experienced teacher will be a lot of help. As bending becomes easier, you can use fewer and fewer muscles to get the job done - as you learn to relax, you are working less and less against yourself to produce the air pocket/resonance/pitch.
Nice work, JohnRed! It's funny, I have similar recordings to what you posted from years ago. If you interested in a good song to work 6 and 4 overblow then work on Sinister Minister :)
