About the same that Stevie Ray Vaughan did to would-be blues guitarists. I saw Betty Fox play a set at a blues festival recently. She has an impressive set of pipes with good range, but was less impressive when she leaned into Janis mode. Ruthie Foster headlined the fest and blew the crowd away the real deal goods. I don't think anyone touches Ruthie today ---------- Ricky B http://www.bushdogblues.blogspot.com RIVER BOTTOM BLUES--crime novel for blues fans available at Amazon/B&N, iTunes, iBook THE DEVIL'S BLUES--ditto HOWLING MOUNTAIN BLUES--Ditto too, now available
You can't help but love a really good Elvis, Sinatra, or Janis impersonator, but it's a very limited niche type of act which you only need to see once. It's great to be inspired and influenced by others, until you try to become them at the expense of the unique and talented individual within yourself. Each of us from the raw beginner to the acknowledged expert is a work in progress. I find in my own experience as an intermediate student, that although I love to try learning songs by the old masters as well as the modern ones, it usually results more in developing new riffs based upon their playing than an exact recreation of their work. It can be somewhat discouraging to see others able to play an exact rendition of a classic blues harp song, right down to the technical details, but sometimes the same people have a hard time opening up their soul and allowing spontaneous riffs to flow forth in a way which gets an audience clapping and dancing. Some of those spontaneous riffs were Little Walter, some Big Walter, some Sonny Boy, and some are your own favorite discoveries learned while unsuccessfully trying to imitate them. I'm constantly watching instructional videos by the experts, and trying to build my toolbox of sweet vibrato, tremolo, scales accurately controlled bends and overblows, etc., but my favorite practice is the portion in which I'm simply wailing out and trying to maintain the excitement of hitting the sweet spot between good technique and soulful expression. One of the best philosophical insights learned from my lifetime in martial arts study is that the ultimate goal is to eventually forget everything you've learned. In other words to flow spontaneously in an impressive display of technical mastery, and unique creativity of which you were totally unaware, and which you could never accurately replicate if you tried. Don't strive to be them... learn from them so that you can become the best version of YOU at the current moment. Tomorrow, you can go back to the videos and take that you to a higher level. Sorry for the diatribe, but this was just one such of those moments in terms of philosophical outpouring. The term "Kung Fu" simply means skilled achievement. We practice the Kung fu of blues harp, and the underlying concepts of becoming a good student, leading to the addition of becoming a good practitioner, are the same. Staying away from heroin helps a lot too.
I don't deny Janis Joplin's real emotion and the sheer power of her performances, but I have almost always found nearly unlistenable."Piece of My Heart" with Brother and the Holding Company was at the time (and remains) an explosive declaration of a person willing to degrade themselves to satisfy the man (or woman) she loves, a gargoyle's grate of yearning, and "Move Over", with the Full Tilt Boogie Band, was a classic riff rock that matched an intemperate vocalist to an one dimensional expression of need. On too many other of her recordings , her singing, at best, makes me think of an abused chew toy nearing the last squeaks and squeals that could be squeezed from it. Granted, her singing was explosive, but that does not suffice as an aesthetic , nor does it provide context that makes what Joplin was doing more comprehensible. It was clear enough: she never truly learned how to sing. Explosions do better than evoke emotions, they create them, and crying two years olds past their nap time are giving those around them a demonstration of powerful tsunami lie tantrums can be, but neither is art , nor are they experiences one cares to have again, if they can help it.Joplin moder of operation was the 60s counter culture anti-aesthetic to "let it all hang out", because, after all, refinement, style, a knowledge of technique was for squares.
First thought , best thought, no restraint, it is forbidden to forbid, all the convenient bromides that made the dismissal of forms and structure a revolutionary act, something much more than a gesture that would have some sweeping Butterfly Effect and transform the culture and steer history towards a Higher Synthesis of meaning .Underlying that thinking was a larger critique against the post war culture of 50s America, with brilliant, poetic , not so brilliant and less poetic arguments made by Marcuse, Theodore Roszak, Allen Ginsberg among other notables in favor of abandoning the enslaving tonnage of dead culture that had brought to the precipice of the Sixties.But with regards to Joplin and her approach to the blues, a musical form that is , in my view, the foundation of every note of musical genius America has produced , hers is a misconception that the melismatic , gospel informed style of black American singers was about being primal, loud, raspy, unrestrained.
She let it all go in emulation of the singers she loved and became, in her eagerness to express her need to find love and be strong, came perilously close to being an outright parody of the real thing. Her vocals do nothing for me except to remind me that a singer constantly pitched at the edge of hysteria stops being exciting very quickly and becomes monotonous. As a vocal artist, a would be blues singer, she existed in a state of streaming melodrama, seeming impervious to vocal nuance , incapable, I imagine, of realizing that Bessie Smith , Big Mama Thorton , Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Billie Holiday , Otis Redding , even the every dramatic and hyperactive geniuses of Little Walter and James Brown took time to learn their craft, to take lessons and understand through an acquisition of techniques that they could sing longer, find meanings in words and the spaces between the notes of the songs they sang, that they could tell stories that drew from the entire range of human experience. I remember the youthful rush to be a genius when I was first learning to play the harmonica--lessons, patience and the practicing of scales and the songs they belonged to be damned, I was going off on improvisational sojourns like Butterfield and John Coltrane. I was lucky enough to survive my own foolishness and became teachable to a greater degree, discovering that those big moments I wanted to create, either in my writing or in my playing, were made up smaller things, technical ideas and brief instances in daily life. What I learned was that small things matter.
Garlicbreath, I've never heard it said more eloquently: "One of the best philosophical insights learned from my lifetime in martial arts study is that the ultimate goal is to eventually forget everything you've learned. In other words to flow spontaneously in an impressive display of technical mastery, and unique creativity of which you were totally unaware, and which you could never accurately replicate if you tried. Don't strive to be them... learn from them so that you can become the best version of YOU at the current moment."
At leas Janis was honestly full of rage. That gal at top is a poser. Not to say Janis was a blues singer imo, she was just an angry representative of blues based hard rock. So Janis early on, before fame hit her, was a much gentler singer, doing folk blues here and there around east Texas. Once she got noticed and got some power she kind of went crazy both with material and with substances, and marketed her rage very well. At my age I have very little use for the anger that fueled that era's popular music, witness the Who and others. Even at the time I had a hard time relating to a lot of what my peers liked.
Garlic Breath is accurate with his statement. There is a sort of Zen thing that happens sometimes where I have been transcended from the moment and told later how good it sounded. Sadly I have no memory of it! This after many years sober. I think the breathing and the pursuit of music has at times put me in a trance state. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
A copycat that comes up short is not pleasant. That was painful to both watch and listen to.
@ JTThirty - Regarding Ruthie Foster, I agree that she is outstanding. I have seen her on the Blues Cruise many times (and will this fall and winter). But to say that no one touches her? I beg to differ. Shemekia Copeland (with Ronnie Baker Brooks and Wayne Baker Brooks) below:
My daughter went to a Blues festival in Telluride a few weeks back. She loved the headliner Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings. Now there's a woman who can sing and has her own voice.
As for Betty Fox, she has some serious pipes and a lot of energy. And a pretty good band. I don't doubt she appeals to huge, crossover audience. Not unlike Joe Bonnamossa.
I use to play for a woman who was a lot like Betty Fox, a high energy performer who puts the "show" back into showtime. I'm not nuts about the Janis choice but it works for her. I love the prescence she brought to the table and how the crowd would lock into her. She loved them and they returned the favor.
And that vibe made us all play better and more importantly, be aware of the audience. I learned a lot playing with her, in particular stage dynamics and making a connection with the audience. That would be my take away from listening to this clip. It is not enough to wear shiney shoes and look sharp on stage, you have got to engage and show intent.....but thats me...
I saw Janis Joplin three times. Great shows. Band pretty good, maybe not great, although I think "combination of the two" is one of that time's great rock and roll songs. Janis did no damage to later would-be blues singers. I think she did pretty much her own thing. Wanna-be's trying to emulate her style are doing their own damage, to their music and to Joplin's. Let her rest in peace, if she was able to find any. ---------- Phil Pennington
I think Fil say's it very well. There's a Stevie Ray Vaughan impersonator, floating around out there, who's a pretty good guitar player, but when he does everything short of plastic surgery to look the part it comes off a little too cheesy for my comfort.
I like the Pink cover.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Oct 03, 2015 10:06 AM
Listening to blues shouldn't give you the blues of any sort, which is what Janis did , and now her stylistic reiteration in Debbie Fox. Having a "big voice" does not mean you have to use it. Tension and release are key elements in the effectives of blues cadence, emotion, notes coming to a particular pitch and then a nice downward shift to a pitch that suggests a combination of things like resignation, hope, resolve. Words and music, delivered by a great singer, can evoke volumes of emotional states , the as great poetry or short stories. Those are lessons neither Joplin or her protege (so to speak) Fox learned, or learned enough of. The tension just increases until you made to think that your witnessing someone stretchng a rubber band and that your watching it fray and weaken until it snaps. What you walk away with was a concentrated exertion of power without much to show for the effort. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
adam has made it pretty clear he cannot stand joplin, so he starts from a negative bias.. still, that video is bad by any standard. but how many bad examples have we heard of covering juke or whammer jammer.. or some here do not like popper, so a bad cover of a blues traveler song?? in any case, should the original be held responsible for the stuff that follows? should adam be responsible for every harp player that started with his videos? being a provocateur on the thread title.. i hate to say this but...
Well i have just spent a very enjoyable hour listening to all the above videos and sidetracking,as you do, into their other material.Most of it(imo)is more R'n'B or soul rather than blues. But who the hell is that harp player on the Fox "since i met you baby" video? That is some great Blues Harp.
In that video, Betty Fox sounds artificial and forced. I don't find her singing very pleasant to listen to. Nor does the emotion of the blues come out with much authenticity in her performance.
Janis Joplin was emotional and authentic. If some singers today are trying to copy her style, that is only a compliment, and a statement of her originality.
Just look at many bad guitar players imitate Hendrix in a superficial (and unlistenable) manner.
Last Edited by A440 on Oct 04, 2015 2:19 AM
It's certainly possible to use Janis Joplin's influence constructively. I've posted this before check out Maggie Koerner if you haven't heard her.
To my ears and musical sensibility she nails it - it's a performance but still delivers with authenticity, no overdone growls or contrived melisma. Light and shade.
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Oct 04, 2015 3:03 AM
I agree with you about Maggie Koerner, Gamblers. She's got a nice voice. And the Janis influence is certainly there. The difference between her and Betty Fox is that she knows how to take her time and leave space. She doesn't just unbutton and spew. That latter behavior, unfortunately, is what some white female blues singers take to be Janis's legacy.
I'm late to the party. @kudzurunner-I say yes, and 1847 and Goldbrick made me laugh. Made it was worth tuning in. ---------- I'm out of the Biz for a while till I get over my burnout. You can try HarveyHarp or arzajac, or just look the page nacoran put together under Forum Search. .
I've also enjoyed the back and forth as well as the posted videos. This forum has often led me to discover many great additions to my blues song playlist. I don't blame anyone for liking or disliking various performers, since this is quite natural. Seeking to follow the path of humility, I must admit that regardless of my perceptions and preferences, everyone shown here sings much better than me. Thus far, everyone I've seen playing harp on this forum seems to play better than me, simply because they usually are able to do something that I wish I could do. Weather it is that their tone sounds better, or they are further along with their vibrato, or they can play a complete and fairly accurate rendition of a classic blues harp song. Perhaps if they heard me play, they would find something in my playing that they wish they could do as well. Has this woman, or Janis, or any of us damaged blues singing or playing? Of course not! The blues will survive and thrive despite all of us. One important concept brought out by this topic, is the difference between forced and heavily contrived performance, and the unique core talent all of us seek to find, understand, and develop. Everyone teaches me something. Some what to do, and some what not to do. In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson " In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him". As a student of blues harmonica, and a student teacher of Kung Fu, I am sometimes tempted to start a topic about the learning and teaching process as well as the student and teacher relationship. I'd bet that many less experienced players like me would never play before the members of this forum for fear that they would here a lot of "YOU STINK" responses, rather than " Good start. I like the way you do this, now here's a great video about how to improve this". Believe me, many of us are intimidated by how much many of you know and how well you play. In my teacher training in martial arts I've learned much about how to take the most uncoordinated and totally intimidated beginner and nurture them along with kind words and good examples. Nothing is more rewarding than seeing them gradually transform into a confident self starter who eventually doesn't need me as training wheels, becoming a respected peer with whom I can share insights and realizations in a back and forth exchange. Anyone interested?
Last Edited by Garlic Breath on Oct 04, 2015 7:45 PM
Blues singing ought not sound like something that you're rendering a competent duplication of. Blues is ground zero for everything we collectively think as authentic, that is, direct expression, genuine and without abstraction or affectation. In both the case of Fox and Maggie Koerner, I hear appropriation of another culture's style,but worse, a borrowing of vocal tones, intonations, and other minor vocal gestures that keep both examples, the gross and the competent, in the realm of the minstrel show. Both performances sound studied and second hand. I've always championed those singers who give up on the notion of sounding like their vocal influences who , all the same, go out and forge a style that is their own; Paul Butterfield, Mose Allison, Bonnie Raitt, Joan Osborn. What ruins most white vocalists in their attempts to sing in a style defined by African American culture is , it seems , unintentional parody; a harsh, rasping voice is all too many Caucasian blues lovers regard blues singing as. It's a misunderstanding of the style and and, honestly, an ignorance of the technique required to make a blues vocal a compelling statement . ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
I think the would be blues singers did it to themselves. I saw Janis live several times and she always gave it 110% . She was an original and was for real. One person that's been forgotten is Tracy Nelson my favorite singer from that period.
Diggs, that's an authentic voice! I like that. My personal tastes for arrangement are a little more rock and less gospel, but that definitely still works. I hadn't heard of Nelson before. :)
Way back when I was in high school I was in choir. Usually freshmen women weren't allowed in choir, they had to perform in the all women chorus for at least a year. In the four years I was there they made one exception. There was this singer who had a lot of formal opera training. Man I hated her voice! What's funny is we covered tunes from Phantom of the Opera, which does a great job of demonstrating the difference between a traditional operatic voice (Carlotta) and what most people today would consider a pleasant voice (Christine). I like a wide range of voices, but what gets me is there seems to be a certain type of vocal training that can rob any performance of its soul.
Why wouldn't you judge Janis Joplin on her own performances rather than based upon someone's effort to emulate her? You wouldn't judge Little Walter's impact on harmonica by the performances of those who honored him by attempting to play his tunes unsuccessfully.
Joplin was unpolished and often shrill, but when she hit the right notes and connected with the audience, the emotional impact was undeniable. Bob Dylan is similar in that respect. His vocal range is limited and no one would argue that he's the most skilled harmonica player. I'm sure he made many with limited skills and technique think that they, too, could be pop stars, but his sound is unique and distinct and his talent overcomes his vocal and instrumental shortcomings, IMHO.
Everything depends on context, which is to say that singers who have imperfect voices can produce effective and enthralling performances if the songs are tailored for the vocally challenged. Dylan, to his credit, never claimed to be great blues singer but, as a songwriter, melded his influences into his songwriting. His songs, over time, took on their own character, and it's hard to imagine anyone doing Dylan's songs better than Dylan has already done. Dylan created his own criteria. One appreciates Dylan on his own terms because he effectively liberated himself from his influences became an influence, a far ranging influence. The same may be said of Jagger, someone who was never going to be a convincing blues singer but who, emboldened by the music he loved, wrote his own tunes with Keith Richard and created a body of music which his voice characterizes and energizes. If Joplin had written her own songs, and hadn't died, she may well have created a style that allowed her style to evolve and become more musical. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
"it's hard to imagine anyone doing Dylan's songs better than Dylan has already done."
Ted, I pretty much agree with all of your last post except the portion I've quoted above. There have been an awful lot of iconic covers gleaned from Dylan's extensive catalog and I'd have to say that a number of them are better than the originals. Just my opinion, of course. I do have more Bob Dylan vinyl in my collection than any other single artist.
Bilzharp, I agree. I'd go one step farther and say that most Dylan songs I like I like as a cover rather than the original. (All things considered, if I had a choice personally of being famous for singing a lot of songs by other people or being famous for other people singing my good songs better than me I'd rather write good songs, but I'm not even famous!)
That said, I often like rough voices. I like Tom Waits and Kurt Cobain just fine. Dylan's voice just doesn't do it for me.
Whether others have done Dylan songs better than Dyland did is another conversation. The point is that there are those who are vocally challenged who are able , through writing their own songs or selecting their material suitably, to transcend their short comings and create vocals that are compelling. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
well, now the dylan is brought up, i can see adam's point in a way... i see pretty much folk music and adult alternative acoustic (whatever that is) and it is perfectly acceptable for someone who is a great singer and great guitar player to slap on a neck rack and play crappy harp.. the audience eats it up usually.. if the performer sang or played guitar as poorly as they play the harp they would be shown the door... and dylan gets a good amount of the blame for that in my mind.
Ted, I agree, but I'm not sure Dylan gets there. I love his lyrics and there are some cover versions I've just about worn out listening too, but I can honestly say that while I recognize Dylan is a brilliant storyteller/songwriter I honestly can't listen to HIM sing his stuff for very long.
(And apparently it hasn't gotten any better. My friend went to see him a couple years ago and said his voice has gotten considerably worse, to the point where he felt he'd kind of got ripped off on the tickets.)
I can listen to Joan Osborne sing Man In A Long Back Coat on repeat for hours, but Dylan doing Dylan just doesn't do it for me. And I someone who usually can overlook mediocre singing.
opinion gets only a nod,millions of people have liked these,janis Joplin,bob Dylan,etc.they`re in the history books.nobody here will be remembered in 30 yrs.myself,i like blues singers like Buster Benton and Big mamma thornton,But I give r.e.s.p.e.c.t. to them all...
On Dylan, I consider myself a Dylan fan but I'm in the some of Dylan's song covers are better than Bob's version camp, for me one of those is Mississippi. Here's Sheryl Crows take:
And bob's:
On the subject of Bob's harp playin', once again I'm a Dylan fan, but there are some songs I absolutely can't listen to strictly because of the harp. Maggie's Farm comes to mind. Like nails on a chalkboard to these ears. On the other hand, I really dug what he (or someone else) did on Everything Is Broken. So for me the harp playin' is kinda hit or miss. But the song writing is tops in my book.
Regarding Janis? Hey bag on her all you want, her rendition of Kristofferson's Me and Bobby McGee is in my pantheon of greatest songs evah! I do get Kudzu's point though, that first video was kinda cringe worthy.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Oct 08, 2015 12:20 PM
