I watched the movie "Whiplash" on a plane to Bangkok a couple of days ago. The dialog reminded me a lot of the recent post of Buddy Rich berating his band.
This movie is very over the top and shows a very different picture of music school life than the way I imagine it. It has similarities to the school of hard knocks learning I read about some of the greats having gone though in posts on this forum. It is similar but about 3 orders of magnitude worse than my toughest high school band director.
I have looked wistfully at the settings of some of Boris Plotnikov's videos and thought how great is would be to be in a music school setting, which for me is the path not taken. This movie really puts a different spin on that thought!
I have no doubt that the method depicted in this movie can push students to achieve greatness. I am not convinced it is the only way or even the best way.
I would love to hear others thoughts and experiences on this topic.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 26, 2015 9:03 AM
I was asked to play drums in high school by the same band director my older brother (a very good drummer)had, I was reluctant, but needed the credits. Man-O-Man I had no idea as to what I had gotten myself into. I HAD to learn rudiments which translated to three times a week meeting with Mr. Miller after regular band practice for three hours of one on one. I learned, so did the rest of the drum section but Mr. Miller was fired for the way he treated us. His favorite method seemed to be a lot of cursing and belittlement. He said we would strive for perfection, and settle for excellence. Later playing in bands with my older brother because I was much younger than the average age of the band I had to learn some hard lessons. It seems the hardest lessons are the ones that I have kept most foremost. I can still snap off my drum rudiments, and I am not the drummer in the family my brother is. Laying out knowing when/where to play all were lessons in my case that came on stage during a performance so the "embarrassment" factor has its full effect. I can't say for certain that a bullying style of teaching is ever necessary, but for me those lessons are a part of me.
Hi STME58 – I drew the exact same comparison with the Buddy Rich clip the other day. Interesting.
I was talking to some friends about this exact subject the other day after watching the film. We came to the conclusion that this approach to teaching is not limited to just music. You also find it across many other creative disciplines.
My house mate his an actor and she said that she had tutors who would be very harsh on performers in a similar manor, another friend is a trained chef and he said that this is a common type of approach in many of the high end kitchens he has worked in.
I trained as a graphic design and art director – part of our training was the "crit". After a project was finished we would look at each class members work as a group and evaluate it together. This was constructive criticism from the class and the tutors all together. We were encouraged to not only focus what was working but also (and more importantly) what wasn't. The tutors didn't hold back if they thought it was shit. They tell you and they'd rip into you.
I think part of this approach does have to do with the "striving for perfection, and settling for excellence" thing. However I think there is more going on too. I found when I had finished college and in my first job that my creative directors would often also approach assessment and feedback in a fairly similar, direct, often very harsh way.
What I realised then is that what my tutors were doing with their hardline approach was preparing me for this.
Creative work can be very personal to you – you put your heart and soul into it and any slight negative criticism of it can feel like a personal attack. This can lead at best to you defending a bad piece of work, at worst to you feeling attacked and shamed. This is not the intention, the creative director is trying to make the work as good as possible and in the most direct and efficient way. By being blunt and honest.
Getting used to this hardline approach can teach you to remove your ego form the work, in order to see it objectively and to allow you to assess your own work more more clearly. Without your emotional attachment to it clouding your judgement/or assessment in wether it is successful or not.
I've always said about design is that it's not enough to make something that is good you also have to be able to tell if it's right or not. I'd say the same about music.
What this approach is, in a nutshell, being very brutally honest, and to deal with this approach, you absolutely HAVE to learn one HUGE thing and that's something that has to be in all caps because of its importance, and that's DON'T TAKE THINGS PERSONALLY. The minute you take things personally, you set yourself up for failure and someone who's gonna be brutally honest will never sugar coat anything. There are gonna be times for people when that's gonna be the ONLY way you learn and learning to avoid taking things personally helps you to keep one's ego in check and sometimes you're gonna need someone to tell you a truth you're too often unwilling to face up to and one of the most perfect examples of someone unwilling to face the truth is when a drug addict, alcoholic, or a cigarette smoker is in total denial that they have an addiction problem and the very first, very lame statement you can count on them making is "I can quit anytime I want," but everyone in the world except themselves knows otherwise and someone who's gonna be brutally honest is never gonna let you lie to yourself.
There have been plenty of times where musicians (who were pros) all told me to stop making excuses and get my time straight and learn some basic music theory, both of which at the time, like too many sterotypical harp players, I didn't see the importance, but once I got my fragile ego the hell out of the way and quit making the same damned, dumb excuses harp players make over and over and learned theory and got my time together, musically, I improved, plus I could also tell quite easily when there were other musicians around me that lacked both skills, which are ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL in order to become a far better musician, I could easily tell what musicians had good time and which ones had time that flat out sucked and then made sure that I avoided musicians that had crappy time at all costs, as they were putting a HUGE HURT on my bands draw and it became easier to keep a crowd.
People who allow every little thing to get to them personally will be unable to take ANY KIND OF CRITICISM, constructive or otherwise and will just wilt or give too many people a ration of s**t because they can't handle a goddamned thing. I can say that when many of the old school black blues musicians pushed me real hard like that was because they wanted me to succeed and not get complacent. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Accepting honest and blunt criticism sans ego is one thing. Tolerating rude behavior - of any sort - is another.
The first is something you must do if you wish to learn and progress. If the assessment is true, then you should in fact be grateful for the input.
The second is something you never permit if you have any self respect. That applies in all aspects of life (I've noticed that rude people rarely try and abuse those who are fully willing to respond in kind).
In other words . . . I thought the movie "Whiplash" was garbage. ---------- Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
Last Edited by Rontana on Mar 26, 2015 2:55 PM
I really disliked the movie, chief among my complaints that it replays a number of cliches and stock situations from other music -oriented dramas. A young , promising drummer comes under the harsh tutelage of an unforgiving task master. I have the feeling that this was the "Drumline" movie for white people, the irony being that we have instructor directing a student ensemble which is predominately white in the ways, technique and nuances of an African American art. Besides that, what we have is two hours of the poor student being harrangued, harassed and intimidated by a psychotic instructor who screams "not my tempo" yet who is never displayed playing a musical instrument . Smells fishy. The ending , of course, was cornball and inevitably trite, the student rising up the tyrant's standards in live performance, the instructor allowing him the space to soar as he demanded athe student to do all along, both of them staring at each other with a new found respect. This movie had more cliches than a Ronald Reagan speech. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
"yet who is never displayed playing a musical instrument"
Not true...
There is a scene near the end where this band teacher is playing piano with a small combo in a jazz club.
J.K. Simmons spent months learning the proper fingering for this scene to lend authenticity as the camera pulls back and shows his hands on the piano.
(As a musician, I hate when actors "play" at playing an instrument to the sound track and are not even close with their motions. J.K. did a real fine job). ---------- The Iceman
I'm still relatively new to the harp. Happy to get all the unvarnished criticism, without sugarcoating, that I can get. In fact, I prefer it that way and don't get enough. But the "brutally" thing? Is that part necessary? I mean, do you have to be pissed off to play the harp good, or teach it? And/or bullied? I guess I'm kind of in Rontana's camp on this one. BBQ...I'm working a bit on theory, learning my intervals and practicing with a metronome and all that. And getting better. Going to be one of the great ones? No, but do I have to see that as a failure?
You're right, but the scene is inconsequential to making the otherwise magnificent JK Simmons a convincing musical presence in the story.JK,correct fingering or not,seemed like he was miming all the same I will concede that he did as good a job aping the moves as Ralph Macchio in Karate Kid, or Sean Penn in Woody Allen's Movie "Sweet and Lowdown" (incidently one of Allen's best late-period movies).What irritates me is that the only movies about blues or jazz musicians that get the the high profile treatment are those whose protagonists are white males.the results are overwrought cliches with skewed senses of history.the results are mediocre movies that plays the audience for fools and,in fact,dishonors great music created by great musicianship. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Mar 27, 2015 7:06 AM
I agree with those who thought Whiplash was great. I really enjoyed the theme of how excellence can come dangerously hand-in-hand with ego/sacrifice/obsession/pain, but can see how the JK Simmons character could instantly turn off some viewers who just found the whole film needlessly cruel and would sort of shut down their enjoyment of the film from that… but the acting was fantastic! There is good chewing up the scenery and there is bad. JK Simmons in Whiplash=good. Pacino in "Scent"=bad. Sure the climax was a bit of a cliché but it was so energetically filmed and edited, and the music so great that I personally fell for it hook line and sinker. The whole climactic scene was a fantastic short film in itself. I don’t think Mo’ Better Blues is a good example of anything. IMHO Mo’ Better Blues was a cliché factory…the hipster jazz/loan shark atmosphere seemed really misplaced with the whole 90’s vibe, and the romance was very lame, to say the least. A lot of the dialogue was cringe-worthy. The final straw for me was the over-the-top montage “life comes full circle” ending. I’m a fan of most Spike Lee Joints but this one did not work for me. It was pretentious and clumsy.Overly long, too. Whiplash said what it had to say in 90 minutes. Like a perfect Little Walter solo!
Seems there might be a couple topics here the brutality of some teachers/pros or whatever and the movie review. So for me, if brutality is a method of teaching music then I'd definitely know I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people.
I was thinking about the two treads in this tread that @Spderyak mentioned. Both are good but it is the brutality in I am most interested in. For some reason many people cannot separate holding to a high standard and not praising mediocrity, with the brutality. Most people are aware that football coaches do this, but few who have not been there realize that the band director uses the same methods.
I appreciate posts of personal experience with the brutal method, there are many examples of its success in many fields. I have taken martial arts from an instructor who has used this method to take several students to national championships and Olympic gold. (Not being even close to this level I did not get the full brunt of it)
Can anyone site examples of someone who rose to a high level of skill and competence without similar methods used in their training? I really believe it is possible, but I am not aware of any high level examples. Is that because it doesn't happen, or because it does not make for as riveting a story?
I think that you can find the brutality teaching concept in every walk of life. Sure they can rise to the top of their respective fields, it's just that they are referred to as a***oles. Sure sometimes they don't get fired, guess sports is a good example as any, but music teachers or anyone else certainly could qualify if the shoe fits.
I haven't seen Whiplash yet (watched the trailers etc) but the story is as old as the hills. Miracle (Kurt Russel Olympic Ice Skate coach movie) is similar in some ways (but slightly different too) and team based and has some interesting insights. My own personal experience is in this area (more at bottom)
@STME56 " I really believe it is possible, but I am not aware of any high level examples. Is that because it doesn't happen, or because it does not make for as riveting a story?"
It is possible, and I think it's just because it doesn't make good tv/movie drama.
The whiplash aka marine boot camp style of education is flat out wrong (unless maybe if you're in marine bootcamp, but even that may be changing - though there has to be phase to sandpaper the civilian veneer off anyway)
Intrinsic motivation is the best form of motivation, and an enjoyable process of learning is the best environment for learning.
That doesn't mean it's all unicorns, rainbows, and butterflies without the occasional kick up the ass or wake up call, but generally it's 180 degrees to the screaming in your face put down "motivation" style. Feedback can be given in many ways to deliver a wake up call to show progress against goals or remediate mistakes.
Unfortunately I think the marine bootcamp style story is pretty common (as others have pointed out).
Mainly due to the old "That's the way I was taught and if it was good enough for me then it must be good for them" combined with a healthy dose of "we've always done it this way".
Life isn't easy because assholes generally make it harder than it has to be.
Japan has had a recent awaking in this regard to bullying in general by teachers, especially in Judo. Many deaths/injuries attributed to it too. Japan Confronts Hazards of Judo
My own experience was world level 8-person team parachute competition (3 world meets, 1 silver (cheated out of gold, literally), 1 gold, 1 4th + Australian record). We had bits of every style in our training, especially given the nature of the sport and personalities involved.
We actually hired a "coach" at one point to just act as a dart board for the team so we could direct most of our personal issues at him rather than each other. It kind of worked, and we never told him that's why we actually hired him. He did take his role to heart a bit too much, and tried the bootcamp motivation on a couple of us at times but I can't say it did anything but make me roll my eyes.
Some old team members tried the bootcamp style with new members in our 3rd team iteration (imagine someone pulling up next to you under parachute and hurling a load of abuse at you) and I had to negotiate them into toning it down after receiving a delegation from the newbs that this wasn't really teaching them anything but how to scream under canopy and that some people had genuine anger management issues, no matter their sporting pedigree. Things went a little smoother after that.
Competition (and refining a skill) is as much about the journey as winning a medal.
I thought the film was crap, although Simmons did a fine job. But to me, the film is metaphorical. How many of us have a slavedriver degrading us in our own mind, somehow thinking that it will push us to greatness>
JK Simmons does a good job with a role that is an over-used archetype, that of the bullying mentor who is an extreme mix of contempt and compassion. The use of this strawman, or any other characters who are stereotypes before anything else, is that the story is predictable. It ceases to be drama, where the flammable spark of human emotion keeps events and their outcomes unforecastable. I knew what was going to happen in "Whiplash" and was a little pissed off about all the obvious button-pushing the writers, producers and the lot were engaged in. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
I haven't seen the film, but I wonder if the drill-sergeant approach gives people permanent inferiority complexes. I have met some excellent conservatory trained musicians who had an inordinate fear of performing even in low-pressure situations such as jams and community radio, for example. No matter how good they were, they always had the feeling that they were never good enough.
I know I am never going to reach that ever-receding horizon of perfection, but I am better than I used to be, so I just get out there and do it.
There is another way to "evaluate" movies...the movie date approach.
After a movie date, imagine going to a coffee shop for dessert. Some movies are just ways to escape for 2 hours. Others will inspire a spirited discussion of what was just seen.
Like it or hate it, "Whiplash" is one of those films that inspires analysis and discussion. ---------- The Iceman
In contrast to Solti, tellingly known as the Screaming Skull, or the baton-snapping, score-hurling Toscanini, Robertson is not a confrontational conductor, something he thinks is due to him getting into the conducting groove before puberty hit. “I’ve never felt that’s a good way to get results. It’s about creating an environment in which everybody feels not only that they can give their best but that they can take chances. Great things don’t happen without people really trying to take chances.”
Mindthegap, I am not sure how to be clearer. I mean there is a part of the mind of many creative types that yells at the self, telling the self it is bad and worthless and will not amount to anything unless it practices an unreasonable amount.
Michael - Yes, you were clear. I wondered if, as a teacher, you had some examples of how that manifests and how people deal with it.
Edit. e.g. do people come pre-disposed to do that, or does it develop. Or something to do with competitions and grades. That kind of thing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 31, 2015 5:16 AM
Iceman, Until you have walked in the shoes of 6 billion people, you don't know what you are talking about.
Mindthegap, as a teacher, I have had many students talk about how much they suck. Most of it can be wiped away momentarily with a joke or compassion, but quite often it shows up again.
I have had around 3 students where the situation is intense. They regularly would berate themselves in front of me. One would yell at himself every time he made a "mistake". If you believe in fate, which I am unsure if I do, there must be a reason why we were together and I did my best to guide them to a happier place.
I don't think it stems from grades. I think it stems from believing life's bullies, who quite often are parents or teachers.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Mar 31, 2015 8:32 AM
@The Iceman states, "Like it or hate it, "Whiplash" is one of those films that inspires analysis and discussion." I agree with this. I think a lot of the negative reaction is not because it is a bad film, but because of disagreement with the premise the film seems to put forth, that brutal training is acceptable, or perhaps even necessary if greatness it to be achieved. I am not sure whether the films director agrees with the premise or just wants to explore it, but it is certainly there. I think it is present to a large extent in our culture, so it deserves to be explored.
@Michael Rubin writes" I think it stems from believing life's bullies, who quite often are parents or teachers." I think my "internal slave driver" or "negative self talk" came from the my dad, who sometimes behaved like Fletcher, only more arbitrary. And just like the Fletcher character, I wonder how much of the motivation was a desire for the protege to become the best they could be, and how much was egomania. Did the students achievements come about because of, or in spite of the teacher?
Seems a few here were scarred by extreme teaching techniques - but it seems that the most damaging were those inflicted on young or beginner students.
From my own experience, I know that when I reached a high level of competence, I did not improve much until I found a band or group of musicians in which I was the weakest link. Playing with them and having them kick my ass worked great in making me a better musician.
At this point, I chose to work with the more demanding, so it wasn't like it was forced on me.
The students in this movie were very competent to begin with and probably wanted the hardest teaching experience available at their level. The movie character was known for having the most winning and kick ass big band of all the colleges, so it makes sense that those serious players would do anything they could to be a part of this, even understanding the extreme personality involved.
Haven't we all had a teacher or two that we hated while in their class (because of their extreme demands put upon us), only to realize later that it was this experience that made us better players/writers/researchers/people? ---------- The Iceman
I have had teachers/coaches I appreciated because they had high standards and would not dole out praise lightly, but only when they thought it was earned. I did not hate, but respected them. They were demanding but never abusive or belittling. I do not believe I would have reacted well to such treatment. BronzeWailer's YouTube
I haven't seen the film, only the trailer, but I agree with Ted. You can have high standards, expect hard work and push people to be the best they can be without physically and verbally abusing them.
I think a lot of times this sort of behaviour is really about power and someone getting off on being in a position of power, rather than actually teaching people.
The movie lies about Charlie Parker, Jo Jones and the cymbal. Jones didn't throw a cymbal at Parker at all, much less at his head. He threw on the floor by Parker's feet, "gonging" Parker off stage. Embarassing, maybe, but not physically threatening.
Good link timeistight. A lot of good comments on it, like: "It's not the best idea to center a film's psychological journey on a lie."
Praise, rewards and developing "grit" are a big topic in education and educational technology research.
One thing that continually amazes me in following discussions on it (and other topics) is how close minded some teachers/educators are when it comes to learning more about learning.
The story links below are related, but might not seem obvious at first. Worth a read if you find the time.
I'm with Iceman. I have actively sought out demanding musicians to play with, who are better then me and are not shy about telling me where my failings are. This has been an invaluable experience for me and has pushed me way beyond where I even thought I wanted to be :)
barbequebob writes: "What this approach is, in a nutshell, being very brutally honest, and to deal with this approach, you absolutely HAVE to learn one HUGE thing and that's something that has to be in all caps because of its importance, and that's DON'T TAKE THINGS PERSONALLY..."
Michael Rubin talks about: "The slavedriver degrading us in our own mind."
These are all part of the same issue. Dealing with the ego, or learning to remove it from the conversation – This is not really a general learning technique but more specific to creative process. This kind of brutal criticism is about separating the ego from the work. Allowing musicians (or other creative people) to assess their work objectively, for what it is.
It's about getting beyond getting upset if someone else says "nasty things" about it, and taking onboard other (often better) peoples opinions without getting defensive or talking it personally – in order to make it the best thing it can be.
It's also an important lesson to learn if you're going to work/play with other people. You need to remove you own agenda from the situation, and look objectively at the work (song) as a whole. If what you're playing isn't working you need to be able to see it, and either do something about it or even remove yourself form it – without ego.
If we think everything we do is great we're not only wrong, but we're never going to make anything any better.
Whiplash has chosen to show the extreme end of this approach – it's a fictional film exploring this side of the human condition and made to be entertaining, that's its job. I'm not saying this type of approach is for everyone but for me at any rate, it has been hugely beneficial to my journey as a musician and my creative process in general.
Last Edited by Baker on Apr 01, 2015 6:16 AM
My brother saw this movie and it reminded him of back in the day when he first joined the US Air Force and it brought him back to the days of boot camp and what Whiplash shows you was actually quite similar in many ways but obviously even more physically as well as mentally far more grueling than this and the reason that the drill instructors pushed you so hard was to make sure that EVERYONE was on the same page 24/7 because even just one person in the troop who isn't on the same page, it can and often times would result in an unmitigated disaster. Heck, just from the way you had to fall in line and march in step exactly ON TIME alone proves that or you have dumb stuff like you might see in a Three Stooges film short about being in a military boot camp.
Baker's post is my point right on the nose and then some. Another your first paragraph says essentially is that being around truly great musicians can rub off on you well if you keep your ego in check, but the bad part is that if you're around really crappy musicians, which can happen quite often in a lot of open jams, crappy musicianship rubs off just as easily. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
