Is there a boot camp for harmonica players, I mean like the one I went to years ago (1968, I think)? I got yelled at a lot, and some stuff was even thrown at me, the language was terrible, endless falling in line and marching in step exactly on time. I'm sure it helped me be a better sailor, so it ought to work for the harp. ---------- Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Apr 01, 2015 5:23 PM
I agree with most of what Iceman, Barbecue Bob, and Baker are saying. Things like; ** You need someone to show you what you are doing wrong if you are going to improve. ** You can’t improve if you don’t mix with folks who are better than you. ** You have to let go of the ego and be teachable. ** You must not take honest and accurate criticism personally. ** Being in a group that is willing to make sacrifices in pursuit of excellence is inspiring. ** It is a tough world out there, you need to be prepared for it. I think there is a false dichotomy though, in the common idea that you either have to accept abuse, or accept mediocrity.
It is common for intermediates in a field to think they are better than they are, they can see how far they have come since being a novice, they get lots of positive feedback from non-experts, and they cannot yet tell the difference between their performance, and that of someone who is truly great. Do you have to throw a chair at them to show them this difference? I am not arguing that abusive methods don’t work, there are too many success stories for that, I am only suggesting that it is not the only or perhaps even the best way. Are the successes because of, or in spite of the abuse?
@Barbeqbob "Another your first paragraph says essentially is that being around truly great musicians can rub off on you well if you keep your ego in check, but the bad part is that if you're around really crappy musicians, which can happen quite often in a lot of open jams, crappy musicianship rubs off just as easily."
Bob, you just demonstrated why the bootcamp method propagates. Bad teaching attitude rubs off just as easily.
The common refrain we hear is it's "Not about ego" and "DON'T TAKE THINGS PERSONALLY".
That's a really fallacious argument as it's ALL about the ego of the abusive "teacher" who can't be bothered to actually learn how to teach properly, but just lets fly when the stupid student refuses to do what they are told.
My own experience with Aust military was bootcamp method is purely an entry process for a particular context where they need to rip off the civilian habits so they can instil the basis of military discipline. After that you are generally treated like an adult. I had multiple instructors who were ex-SASR Multi tour Vietnam vets who never belittled people or threw temper tantrums when teaching the business of killing humans in high pressure situations.
@STME58 "** You need someone to show you what you are doing wrong if you are going to improve. ** You can’t improve if you don’t mix with folks who are better than you. ** You have to let go of the ego and be teachable. ** You must not take honest and accurate criticism personally. ** Being in a group that is willing to make sacrifices in pursuit of excellence is inspiring. ** It is a tough world out there, you need to be prepared for it. "
ALL of that is correct and ALL can be achieved without the teacher acting like a 2 year old.
Have you ever encountered an educator like JK Simmons's band director character before?
I've played under the baton of stern and demanding conductors, as well as the critical ears of some pretty tough bandleaders. I've always experienced equal amounts of praise and criticism from the toughest of them. A conductor or bandleader will only get good results if he or she shows as much love or enthusiasm as the discipline or toughness they dole out. Being a jerk is, ultimately, self-defeating in music education: for one thing, the band will not respond well; secondly, such bandleaders are anathema to the other educators who ultimately wind up acting as judges in competitive music festivals -- such bands will never win (the judges will see to that).
What impression of jazz studies do you think the general public will come away with from watching the film?
I'm disappointed that any viewer of the film will not see the joy of music-making that's almost always a part of large-ensemble rehearsals and performances. Musicians make music because they LOVE music. None of that is really apparent in the film, in my opinion. ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Apr 01, 2015 11:05 PM
In response to what @Ted Burke wrote, I think this movie was intended to be thought provoking, not to glorify Fletcher’s teaching methods. The last scene could be seen as a pathetic attempt by Fletcher to try to bask in glory created in spite of him, or perhaps he is just trying to avoid looking like a fool after being shut down in his attempt to humiliate. To me it was not clear what was passing between teacher and student, respect, or contempt. When the camera kept focusing on the loosening cymbal nut, I wondered if the drummer was trying to get the nut to fall off so he could hurl the cymbal at the conductor.
The story line about the former student of his, a trumpeter, who commits suicide says something about Fletcher that is not very positive. He is clearly affected by it and it looks to me like he feels some culpability. He lies to the band about the cause of death. I get the sense that he is more saddened by the missed opportunity for vicarious greatness, than over the death of the trumpeter. I could also see this interpreted as the beginning of Fletcher starting to see problems with his method. That is what I like about movies like this, they are not black and white and the foster discussion. A person with a predisposition to believe harsh methods are necessary could certainly see this as a rousing celebration of them, but I don’t think this is what was intended by the creators of the movie.
Those that seem upset by it may be taking it too seriously and blurring the line between reality and fiction.
Love it or hate it, I don't think you can deny that this movie sparks heated discussion about many aspects of the human condition.
My take is that Fletcher was driven by his internal demons to succeed and truly did not see the harm in his methods until later in the movie when his character had a slight crack in the seams and registered on some level how he affected some of his students, even while he continued to be driven from within.
The movie didn't have any definitive explanation as to the character development, thereby leaving it up to the audience to judge based on each individual life experience.
A complex character, to be sure.
I would watch this one again. ---------- The Iceman
I agree with STME58. I certainly didn't come away with the feeling that it was a glorification of abusive teaching methods. One of the kid's responses to the methods was to become something of an asshole himself, not pictured as a particularly good thing. I felt that the ending was more intentionally ambiguous than triumphant. I'm glad I watched it. I enjoy a good horror flick once in a while.
Before jazz was glorified and became a bonafide legitimized college program, the only way to learn was in the trenches playing in bands/jam sessions/head cutting.
The conditions for the prospective young jazz player at this time were brutal - not too unlike what was portrayed in this film. The rite of passage was trial by fire...
Piss off Miles Davis and he might have punched you in the mouth. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Apr 02, 2015 1:21 PM
My middle school band teacher used to throw pieces of chalk at us when we messed up. He would get all sweaty and angry. It made me hate music, so I quit and didn't pick up another instrument for real until much later in life.
Haven't seen the movie, but get the gist. As an educator myself, I can tell you that this kind of teaching is stupid. There's no need to go all apesh*t in order to inspire brilliance from talented pupils. Doing so *may* get them to perform, but it doesn't instil the kinds of attitudes and skills that are necessary for broader success. For example, I bet the musicians trained by the "teacher" in that film all would have had crappy personal lives.
PS, Like many teachers, I HAVE, at times, considered physical violence against students. Just kidding? (lol!) ----------
Ran into an interesting man at an art event last weekend.
We got to talking and I found out that he played trumpet in college competition jazz big bands and had taught theory at University of Miami - pretty good music school.
"Whiplash" came up. He loved the movie and told me that he experienced a lot of big band conductors just like the character in this movie, although they never threw a chair at anyone.
So, even though the movie may have been over the top, it did reflect a reality of what is and has happened in this particular arena. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Apr 13, 2015 4:44 PM
As Meaux Jeaux shared near the beginning of this thread, and other have added, high school band directors can head in this direction. Physical violence is rare but a demeaning attitude is common. I think there is a lot more in common with a stereotypical band director and a stereotypical football coach than most people realize. I liked the family discussion in the movie where football was compared with band, and to the family, third division football was a higher accomplishment that world class collegiate music.
My high school band director tended in the direction depicted in the movie and got good performances out of us, many first place awards, and was generally respected by most band members, even if they did not like some of the things said to them in the name of getting them to improve.
My college director, who directed a brass quintet and an orchestra I was in, taught harmony and theory classes I took, as well as directed the county professional symphony, was quite the opposite, although no less demanding about the music. My favorite anecdote about him was that if you were late for class, you had to stand up in front of the class and tell why you were late, he said it was not necessary that your explanation be true, just that it be entertaining. He was frequently late and would always provide an entertaining excuse.
I'm no fan of the bullying and berating teaching method that was apparently the subject of this movie (I haven't seen it). But I have to agree with BBQ Bob that sometimes brutal honesty is exactly what we need as musicians. I once got some VERY direct and brutally honest feedback from one of the best harp players in my city. I think his exact words were "you have no tone". I was mad to say the least. I was a good harp player and I knew it and this guy didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Once I got over that and thought about it, he was right, and I set about fixing it. It was a hard lesson, but it worked.
I just wish I sometimes had what it takes to pass this along. I swear I meet some of the worst sounding harp players in the world and they have no clue, and I just can't bring myself to tell them. I want to tell them to sell their tube amps and pedals, stop going out to jams, and just sit home and practice for a while. If you're reading this and you know me, I'm not talking about you ... its someone else :-)
---------- Jim McBride Bottle 'O Blues microphones www.bottleoblues.com
