andromica
1 post
Aug 18, 2014
12:01 PM
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Hi!
I'm a beginner in the world of harmonicas. However I have already invested in 8 harps in a short time, 6 hohner Marine Band Crossover and 2 Marine Band Deluxe.
I have mostly been playing solo on the harps, i.e. not with other instruments - and the tuning has just seemed very decent. But now I have been playing some more with backing tracks and I really noticed that many of the harps seem to be out of tune compared to the tracks (the pitch sounded good though when playing my piano along with the backing tracks).
So I've been doing some tests on them now with different tuning tools and my piano and almost all of them basically seem to be aprox 10-25 cents to high on the pitch (compared to A440 tuning). But it seems to be rather consistent along the scale - so you wont notice it unless you are playing with other instruments. The harps with individual tones reaching +25 cents are unbearable to play with along backing tracks. Two of them are less out of tune than the others, The “D” Marine Band Deluxe which is mostly +5/-5 cents and the MB Crossover which stays mostly within +10 cents.
I find it hard to believe that so many of these so called high end harps would be out of tune!?
Is it perhaps to be expected that harps, out of the box, are generally this far off? I thought that one could expect -5/+5 cent in correct pitch out of high end, new harps...?
Or is it a matter of technique? I am using the puckering technique, and tilting the harp upwards. I personally think I am getting a hang of the puckering technique after having seen so many instructional videos and all practice I´ve put in. I found out however that when I blow single notes, with the harp not in my “mouth" (i.e. with the lips only in touch with the comb), resulting in a very bad sounding and shallow tone - I can often get the pitch within the +5/-5 range. But playing like that would obviously not be a good solution as that would create all sorts of other problems for me. When I tried to do some tongue blocking (which is a technique I never use) it also “seemed" that the tones would sometimes go down aprox 5 cents, making them more in pitch (but still to high).
So what am I to make out of all of this? I am thinking about sending almost all of them back - and requesting harps that are in better pitch - but I am afraid that they will just do a blowing test with one of those test-blowing-equipment which music stores have for customers, which I assume would generate a very similar air flow and tone as the one I describe above - resulting in tones with much more correct pitch…
Using tuner tools, are you able to a get a new perfect pitch from most notes on “out of the box” harmonicas?
Greateful for any comment or advice :-)
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smwoerner
258 posts
Aug 18, 2014
12:21 PM
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Hohner generally tunes their harps to 442 or 443. Additionally the tuning for the harps you've mentioned are not going to be tuned pure equal temperament. Here are the offsets for the Marine Band Deluxe:
Modern Marine Band Tuning
Hole #____1_____2____3____4_____5____6____7_____8____9____10
Blow______0___-12___+1____0___-12___+1____0___-12___+1_____0
Draw_____+2____+1__-11___+2___-12___+3__-11____+2__-12____+3
Marine Band Crossover Tuning
BLOW 0 -5 1+ 0 -5 1+ 0 -5 1+ 0
HOLE# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW 1+ 4+ 0 1+ 2+ 1+ 0 1+ 2+ 1+
edited to add Crossover Tuning
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Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
Last Edited by smwoerner on Aug 18, 2014 12:22 PM
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Pistolcat
677 posts
Aug 18, 2014
12:38 PM
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As smwoerner says above. Harps are generally tuned in a compromised way to get sweeter chords. There are harps that are tuned to Equal tuning (Lee oskar, Suzuki, Tombo, Hohner golden melodies) but i believe that they are still tuned to 442 Hz?
You seem to know your way around music. Stop using a visual tuner to check your harps and instead match notes to your piano. That way your ears and mouth (your speech organs) will learn to adapt and match the notes that you are 'supposed' to get. This is a process that take time! Think learning a new language!
As a piano guy you can go into a music shop and say 'Hey this piano I just bought here is not in tune. Fix it'
If you were a Trombonist that wouldn't get you far now, would it?
A harp has more likeness to a 'bone than what meets the eye...
Every note need to be intoned to reach its fullest sound whether it's a bent note or not. After you have played a while you will automatically bend down to pitch. Yes, even the notes that are not supposed to bend. Stick to it! :)
...That said: Get harps with tunings that work for you! ET or different compromised tunings are for different people. A Piano guy like Howard Levy only play ET harps. I'm sure others will give you more advice as to that.
... I'm going to stop rambling now...
Harp on!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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GMaj7
499 posts
Aug 18, 2014
1:17 PM
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Here is some information on the topic.
http://1623customharmonicas.com/2014/03/15/tuning-temperament-pitch-and-frequency-basis/
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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nacoran
7951 posts
Aug 18, 2014
3:45 PM
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My favorite article on the subject is this one:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html
It talks more specifically about historical piano tunings. Unfortunately, the links to specific examples seem to be dead. :(
The quick and fast version is it's about sounding good on melody (Equal Temperament) on chords (Just Temperament) or sort of compromise (Compromise). If you want to try a ET harp, pick up a Hohner Golden Melody or a Lee Oskar. I know some of the Suzukis are ET too. Harps are also tuned a little sharp because a lot of guys play a little harp which lowers the pitch a bit.
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Nate
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slaphappy
28 posts
Aug 18, 2014
3:54 PM
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I've noticed some of my harps came quite sharp OOTB as well. 1 blow at 445 IIRC for example.
I think OOTB harps are just consistently inconsistent. :)
Last Edited by slaphappy on Aug 18, 2014 3:55 PM
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1847
2068 posts
Aug 18, 2014
4:39 PM
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the third note of the scale,determines
if a chord is major or minor
if you tune to, 440 A... the third note will be flat
so by raising the pitch 442 or 443 it helps to solve that problem.
we also need to consider where the harmonica was manufactured. it is quite cold in the winter,especially in the morning, i imagine
the first thing mr hohner does, is put a log on the fire upon arrival. as the temperature rises
the tuning will fluctuate. comes with the territory.
i have harps from many manufactures, as high as 448 ouch!
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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STME58
1040 posts
Aug 18, 2014
6:49 PM
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Nate, I finally bought the book the article you linked to reviewed, "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care)"by Ross W Duffin. It is a fascinating topic. All this because 12 perfect fifths do not equal 7 octaves exactly. I had learned long ago that G# and Ab are not really the same note but now I understand a bit better why. When you start to understand this being "in tune" becomes quite a complex idea. Non fretted instruments can adjust as needed to really make an important chord stand out. Keyboards can't do this. As Pistolcat mentioned above, a harp is closer to a non fretted instrument than you might at first think it is.
I heard from one instructor that "Just because the tuner says you are in tune doesn't mean you are in tune with what is being played around you".
Pistolcat, in working with an instructor I found my 6th position C on my trombone is consistently sharp. I have been spending some effort trying to change my habit of where I put the slide, but perhaps I should just take my horn to the shop and get it fixed :-).
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 18, 2014 6:55 PM
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JInx
852 posts
Aug 18, 2014
8:28 PM
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I also have found the harmonica to be more horn like then piano like, in regards to intonation. Each and ever note as Pistolcat says, 'must be intonated each time you play it. Proper intonation a result of brain, embouchure and instrument.
Harmonica is deceptive and many sub par players will blow with horrible intonation. They often seek to remedy the harmonic shortcoming with less then optimal results using hand waaa waaa, excessive bending, distortion, effects and or exuberance....all adding to the problem.
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Last Edited by JInx on Aug 18, 2014 8:32 PM
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andromica
2 posts
Aug 19, 2014
12:36 AM
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Thanks for all the comments!
Yes, I am aware of the difference between equal and just intonation. And I guess I prefer "equal"-ish as I am more into playing melodies on the harps. I also realise that Hohner harps have a compromised tuning which would explain why there are some differences in pitch “correctness” between individual tones. But in my case - the harps just generally seem to be a bit to high. I just checked my C-harp again and I would say that the tuning is something like A444 or 445.
@smwoerner : thanks for the charts. Interesting to see. My harmonicas do not seem to match up with these figures. For example my C Crossover seem to have aprox plus 20-25 on the fourth hole blow (at least when I play it…). I will post a precise mapping on some of my harps for comparison.
@pistolcat : I’ve matched some of the tones to the tones on the piano - and some really do sound to far off…But point taken. I’m more used to playing piano/fretted instruments where playing tones doesn’t need to think that much about intonation. The problem then is that at the moment, I can’t really see/feel how I can lower the tones by changing my embouchure. Regarding Hohner being in 442 Hz, Two of my Hohner harps at least has the inscription of A440 on it. Don’t know why only some of them have it - but there is no obvious difference between them though when it comes to the pitch.
@nacoran : Thanks a lot for the article. Interesting reading. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in buying all of those Crossovers. It could be that a Golden Melody or a Lee Oskar suits me better...
So from what I understand from all of this is that the high pitch is nothing unusual in the world of harmonicas. What would you say though is the acceptable limit when it comes to pitch. I mean if you buy a harmonica that is consistently tuned in a compromised A444 would you return it? Adapt your playing to lower the tones? Or would some of you perhaps just lower the pitch yourselves?
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arzajac
1449 posts
Aug 19, 2014
3:08 AM
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A reed's pitch is not constant; it is affected by airflow. The greater the breath force (pressure and flow), the lower the pitch will be. If you made a graph of pitch versus flow, you would find that at very low flow/pressure, the pitch is very high. At very high flow/pressure, the pitch is very low. The reeds are designed to provide a relatively flat portion of the curve at around common breath flow/pressure. There still is a lot of variation in pitch that depends on breath force. Most importantly, it means two things when tuning a harp:
1- You need to keep in mind the player's breath force when you tune a harp (not a problem if you will only ever tune your own harps)
2- You need to tune low reeds higher (sometimes a lot higher) than high reeds. Since the higher reeds are less susceptible to the pitch dropping with increasing breath, they can be tuned closer to 440. The middle octave needs to be tuned a bit sharper. Since most players favour the middle octave, you usually start in the middle. Then, you tune the lower reeds to have the same pitch as the middle octave when hit with the same breath. That often means they will be quite sharp.
It also means that if you play the low notes with unrealistically low breath force, you will hear a note that is very sharp. If you tuned that note to the "tuning table" value, when you hit it with regular force, it would sound very much out of tune!
So, tuning a harp is about a lot more than following a tuning table.
For example, this is how the Crossover is really tuned: (from Harp-L)
0=443Hz w. minimal air pressure, all deviations are in cents, 1Hz = approx. 4 cents on most tuners
Blow reed plate:
Root notes (1, 4, 7 & 10) tuned to 0
Thirds (2, 5 & 8) minus 5 cents
Fifths (3, 6 & 9) + 1 cent
Draw reed plate:
1-draw is very difficult to measure accurately. With absolutely minimal air pressure maybe +8 cents, more in low keys. Like that it will sound right with normal air pressure. It's essential that it sounds good when played together with 2-draw and as an octave interval with 4-draw.
2-draw + 4-6 cents depending on the key, at normal air pressure it should sound at the same pitch as 3-blow
3- & 7-draw tuned to 0
4- & 8-draw 1 cent higher than 2-draw (i.e. + 5-7 cents)
5- & 9-draw + 2 cents (this will mean the 7th chord sounds rough, but sounds better as a single note. You can even tune it a little higher if you prefer that sound)
6- & 10-draw 1 cent higher than 4-draw (i.e. + 6-8 cents)
It's highly recommended to check that all perfect intervals (octaves, fifths and fourths) sound without interference beats. This is what
piano tuners do too. You'll find it's damnably difficult to obtain constant readings from your tuner and I can only recommend playing very softly indeed and holding the note for a long time so you get a fairly clear note value. I use a Korg MT-1200 tuner with a built-in spread which tunes the upper octaves slightly sharper (as do piano tuners) and use the smallest spread the machine offers. It's hard to work to this degree of accuracy with a tuner which only shows Hz values.
Hope this will be of assistance,
Steve Baker
www.stevebaker.de
www.bluesculture.com.
One last thing, every manufacturer's harps aim for a realistic breath force. So if you play with extraordinarily low breath force (or alternatively very hard force), you will find your harps are out of tune. Only about 1 per cent of players play with such low breath force, really.
No factory harps are perfectly tuned. But it's very rare for the whole harp to be sharp or flat, rather a few notes will stray from the pitch they should be tuned to. You usually notice this when you play chords or octave splits. But if a single note is off by 8 cents, you probably won't notice it, even when accompanied by another instrument.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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andromica
3 posts
Aug 19, 2014
3:44 AM
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Thanks arzajac for your informative and detailed answer!! Harmonica tuning is a lot more complicated than I thought...
I had also noticed that the pitch goes down a bit when blowing harder. But in my case it maybe changed the pitch by 5 cent at the very most. So at the moment the tones that are +20-25 (A440) are still to sharp for my taste. And I tested with different strengths.
Do you know if there are harmonicas that have a lower frequency base to begin with. I read somewhere that Golden Melody has the frequency base of A441 (assuming with "normal" blowing strength then).
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arzajac
1450 posts
Aug 19, 2014
4:24 AM
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(edited to make more sense)
Getting a good reading on a tuner also greatly depends on your embouchure. You need to be relaxed so you are not adding two variables to the equation!
Golden Melody harps are tuned a bit sharper than other Hohner models, actually.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 19, 2014 4:56 AM
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harpwrench
898 posts
Aug 19, 2014
7:30 AM
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You might check into the Hohner artist setup. I don't think you'll find a standard out of the box harp tuned like you want. Or learn how to tune your own if you have the time, good skill to own if you're that picky and gonna play these things. Reeds tend to drift sharp over time and it can take months to years before they're 100% stable.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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1847
2069 posts
Aug 19, 2014
8:16 AM
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at one time i believe
lee oskar harps were tuned to 448.
does he still do that?
hering had one model... free blues?
that was also 448
sax player joe houston tuned his horn sharp also.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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dougharps
713 posts
Aug 19, 2014
10:29 AM
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If I re-tune any reeds I base it on 442 or 443 depending on the harp. The harps I use appear to be tuned to these pitches and I check before retuning.
There have been no issues noted by me or by others with me sounding out of tune when playing with other instruments. If you tune to 440 you will most likely end up with some notes sounding flat.
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Doug S.
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andromica
4 posts
Aug 19, 2014
2:03 PM
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Thx again for your comments :-)
I am beginning to realise that it is indeed common or standard for harps to be in at least 442-443 frequency base. For me who is a beginner on the harp - this came as a total surprise. As I mentioned earlier, I knew about the equal, just and compromised tuning. But I still assumed that the harp should be in A440. As I also mentioned earlier - two of the harps even have a clear inscription where it says A440. Why do they put that on if it isn't even true...???
But I will just have to continue playing, experimenting some more with different techniques and see what happens.
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GMaj7
502 posts
Aug 19, 2014
2:43 PM
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Dougharps I think I would disagree with the notion that there are no issues with others sounding out of tune.
Almost all studio harp players request a re-tune to 440-441. I probably re-tune half of all the chromatics I sell to 440 and all the Irish, Bluegrass players request their harps tuned down. Tommy Morgan used to go to every session with harps starting at 438 and going through 444.
I certainly understand why harp companies tune the way they do because their customers are the masses and among them are players who aren't advanced enough to notice and it does make a difference in compromised tunings where the 3rds are tuned flat. Also, concert pitch in Europe is many times 442.
However, the frequency basis is pretty obvious in straight acoustic settings and where there are a lot of strings in the group.
For what it is worth, the accordion forums have this same discussion
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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dougharps
714 posts
Aug 19, 2014
8:38 PM
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@GMaj7
Perhaps it is the genres of music I play, perhaps I unconsciously bring pitch down to match other instruments, perhaps my ear is not sufficiently discerning to note pitch issues, perhaps it is because I now use compromised tuned harps... I don't know.
No other musicians or studio producers have mentioned pitch issues in my playing. There have been times when I have noticed a reed sounding slightly flat in a live performance, and I have changed to a different harp and checked/re-tuned the reed later.
I do know that I sometimes hear old recordings of just tuned harps with blues bands that have notes sounding flat. I know that when I hear horns playing there are pitch issues at times. Sometimes fiddles struggle with pitch, and sometimes guitar players inadvertently stretch a string when playing a chord.
I think that when a player is starting out (as was noted in the OP) he should play and learn to manage the standard instrument before going for custom tunings.
That being said, if I wanted a specially tuned harp rather than just working on a reed or two, I would contact you, Andrew Z., Joe S. or another established customizer/builder long before attempting the work myself.
I have gone to some of Richard Sleigh's workshops and I found I lack the patience to properly set each reed, emboss, re-tune each reed, etc. I have great respect for the patience and workmanship that it takes to customize or build a harp.
So I won't say you are mistaken, just that it has yet to be an issue in my small pond.
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Doug S.
once again, edit for typo...
Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 19, 2014 8:41 PM
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boris_plotnikov
995 posts
Aug 20, 2014
12:26 PM
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I played a bunch harmonicas, my own, my customer's. And I never get a stock harmonica which was in tune. Current Seydel diatonics are very stable and similiar, almost all are the same (although, for my taste they are too high in general and especially 1 draw and 6 draw are way too high for me). Other brands are all +/- 5-10 cents and sometimes octaves are very out of tune and never two harmonicas of same model tuned the similiar.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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