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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > How to practice "playing behind the beat."

How to practice "playing behind the beat."

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Rgsccr 260 posts Jun 30, 2014 12:10 AM	A recent thread on why many blues band suck got into a discussion of finding a groove, and, in particular, learning to play behind the beat. I think I understand what people are saying here - a great Youtube video by Ronnie Shellist really helped as he plays the same lick first with the beat, then ahead of it and then behind it - but I wonder about how to really work on doing this. For the most part, I work on playing by learning songs in the styles of those harp player I really like - mostly the Walters and Sonny Boys, Slim Harpo, James Cotton etc. - and start by listening many times to these until I absorb the feel of the song. I do think this goes a long way toward learning, and since such players were masters of the type of groove(s) we're talking about, I think I also absorb the groove of the song. However, I am open to suggestions about other things I can do to get better at this type of thing. Someone, Barbeque Bob I think, mentioned using a metronome and setting it to accent the 2 and the 4. I found a great free online metronome - http://www.webmetronome.com/ - that allows you to select which beats to accent, and then not only makes a sound, but has a visual of the accented beats. While this helps me visualize the concept, I don't understand how to use something like this when practicing/playing. Any suggestions about doing this, or other methods to work on this idea would be appreciated. Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jun 30, 2014 12:14 AM
teba 5 posts Jun 30, 2014 2:12 AM	Would you mind sharing a link to Shellists video that you are refering to?
Goldbrick 510 posts Jun 30, 2014 4:00 AM	Try this Sinatra, Ella and Sammy Davis were all masters of singing behind the beat Even Miles Davis came to Sinatra to compare notes Monty Alexander: " In the '60s, I played at Jilly's, a club in New York owned by Frank's friend, Jilly Rizzo. Miles used to come in there because Miles liked to go where the hip stuff was happening. He would come in there with a couple of people and sit at the bar. I remember one time when Miles came into Jilly's and hung out with Frank. That's right Miles and Sinatra! It was kind of curious to see these two men at two or three in the morning having a few drinks, sitting at the piano bar right next to me engaged in some deep conversation. There was a remarkable familiarity that Sinatra had with those kinds of musicians that made me see him as a jazz person." Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jun 30, 2014 4:17 AM
The Iceman 1788 posts Jun 30, 2014 5:11 AM	I feel that playing behind the beat is a natural outgrowth of not feeling "forced" to play metrically. In other words, feel the pulse (beat), but have the confidence to "float over it", with what you play not specifically attached to the 1 and a, 2 and a counts (example for shuffle beat) ---------- The Iceman
Frank 4732 posts Jun 30, 2014 5:58 AM	I agree - you'll find yourself having a natural urge to "pickup" your contribution of music before the beat :) Last Edited by Frank on Jun 30, 2014 6:00 AM
tmf714 2626 posts Jun 30, 2014 6:11 AM
blingty 31 posts Jun 30, 2014 6:36 AM	Hey, that's cool. Conor Guilfoyle in the drumming video above taught us in the music school I went to. Nice guy, great teacher, rhythmic master. Last Edited by blingty on Jun 30, 2014 6:50 AM
Michael Rubin 909 posts Jun 30, 2014 7:51 AM	I think Ronnie's video actually taught me the most, the other videos did not explain anything. I would take Ronnie's ideas a bit further because you do not need changes to play behind the beat or ahead. If the song was a one chord boogie you could still do it by feeling where most notes would land during a lick as far as where in a bar of downbeats and upbeats and placing them ahead or behind of that.
JonV 17 posts Jun 30, 2014 8:47 AM	You could do worse than study the intro playing here: Simple phrases played behind the beat by someone who "gets it" (for me at least). Last Edited by JonV on Jun 30, 2014 8:51 AM
timeistight 1600 posts Jun 30, 2014 8:55 AM	Shellist's video is about anticipating or delaying chord changes, not about playing ahead, on or behind the beat. Thy are two completely different things. You can anticipate the change and still be behind the beat, or vice versa. Playing behind the beat is about your notes being very slightly later than a strictly metrical interpretation would place them.
Rgsccr 261 posts Jun 30, 2014 9:02 AM	Hey, great answers/ideas, and thanks for posting the Shellist video TMF - it was late when I started the thread. I really like the guitarist's demonstration, and it seems like a good start would be to use him as a backing track. That is, play along with his guitar while listening to his beat. At the same time, I really like Iceman's explanation about feeling the beat and floating with it. That's the sense I get with so many of Sonny Boy II's songs. Lately, I've been listening to (and playing along with) "Down Child" and "My Younger Days" which seem to me to capture this concept as well as anything. Here is My Younger Days - I couldn't find a good example of Down Child - Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jun 30, 2014 9:07 AM
Goldbrick 512 posts Jun 30, 2014 9:06 AM	The change has nothing to do with the timing which makes the Shellest video confusing. Somebody has to be on the beat- drummer , bass, guitar , harp - whoever - or else its a free for all( most jams). Count the beats you are either on them or forward or behind. Ahead of the beat is really tricky and generally to be avoided unless the band is very comfortable. Blues etc is better in the pocket on or behind. Perfect example of behind the beat is the classic one drop in reggae. Literally the one beat is de-emphasized or not played at all a cammed up Hemi charger at idle is behind the beat
Rgsccr 262 posts Jun 30, 2014 9:12 AM	That makes sense Goldbrick, and was the thing that confused me initially when I heard the term, "behind the beat." Someone has to be "on" the beat as a reference point for someone else to be in front or behind it. Otherwise it is just a mess, or everyone on the same beat. Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jun 30, 2014 9:13 AM
barbequebob 2624 posts Jun 30, 2014 11:22 AM	Let me go on further about the use of the metronome in order to try to learn how to play behind the beat. Before you even attempt to learn to play behind the beat, the very first thing you need to do is to learn to get your time straight, and to be very brutally honest, 50-75% of harp players who are NOT pros often times will have absolutely horrible time to begin with and are often too lazy to take the time to learn to get their time together and is one of the CHIEF reasons why often times they get NO LOVE from players of other instruments and if your time as a harp player is a mess, you are fulfilling as well as perpetuating a common negative stereotype and if you're getting constantly dissed, well, sorry to say, harp players, you fully deserve to be dissed because whenever you screw up the time, you ARE screwing up the groove!!!!! Now every metronome can be set to click on the 2 & the 4, and one comes with instructions on how to do it so having a video really isn't necessary unless you're the type that needs somebody holding your hand 24/7. Why set it to click on the 2 & the 4?? Two reasons: 1.) in blues, most black music genres, and most of today's musics regardless of what the genre it is, this is the BACKBEAT (sometimes referred to as the weak beats, and this is where you will usually find the drummer hitting the snare drum on, and 2.) by removing 1 & 3, the front beat, it makes it much easier to hear if you're hitting ahead, on top or behind the beat. This set up was taught to me by a drummer who used to gig with me for many years and how he was taught to learn how to play not only behind the beat, but also ahead of the beat as well as right on/right on top of the beat. Timesight's post is a very quick insight into how it should feel, or as an old black musician had describes it to me many years ago as, when you're behind the beat, you are taking your time, like a black man would and when you're ahead of the beat, he'd say it was the white man always in a goddamned hurry. What I'm gonna describe now is more from a drummer's angle but if read carefully, hopefully you can understand the concept. When you play against the metronome set up to clock on the 2 & the 4, the drummer then hits the snare, but his time ALWAYS HAS TO BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT, and so when he hits the snare in the exact same spot, and when he hits right dead on to the click, he's playing right ON TOP OF THE BEAT (sometimes referred to as the middle of the beat). If where he hits the snare is BEFORE the click, he's playing AHEAD of the beat, give you the musical ILLUSION of playing FASTER than what the tempo really is, but if he hits the snare just AFTER the click,then you're playing BEHIND the beat, and the what you have is the musical ILLUSION of player SLOWER than what the tempo actually is. Now there are many different delineations of how far ahead or behind and so the idea of setting metronomes up to click ahead or behind, ideal as it may be is never really gonna work and learning and understanding the FEEL is vitally important. If you're in the vast majority of open jams, these are some of the worst places to try and learn it because when comes to groove, most of the jammers, to be brutally honest, are frankly clueless about these kind of things and you have little chance of ever really learning this stuff. The only way you really get to learn about these things is to actually be surrounded by REALLY GOOD musicians who know this stuff COLD, and in an open jam, good luck to you because there's little chance of being surrounded by that. BTW, about a year or two ago, there was a thread entitled The Beat that had this very same question discussed. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte Last Edited by barbequebob on Jul 02, 2014 1:20 PM
barbequebob 2625 posts Jun 30, 2014 11:42 AM	One thing I do have to disagree with Goldbrick about is that someone has to be on the beat is almost saying that someone has to be the metronome, but my experience in my younger days when I was the only non black in an all black blues band, and EVERYONE played behind the beat, and no one there lost the time at all. I remember during a rehearsal, I messed up the time and wound up ahead of the beat for maybe 15 seconds of the tune, the next I could feel was the whizz of a drumstick about a foot from my ear and then the drummer told me, "You mess up my groove, next time I ain't gonna miss!!!" Obviously I made damned sure I didn't screw that up EVER again and in black music bands, you do not EVER screw up the time because you ARE screwing up the groove. In black music bands, they are FAR less tolerant about musicians losing the time, ESPECIALLY if you are a drummer or bass player in that order because if the groove is messed up, EVERYTHING is messed up, and too often in white music bands, too much attention is paid to the soloing and not enough on the groove and in a recording studio, especially if it's a session for a big label, it's not uncommon to have a click track (AKA metronome) in the drummer's headphones to make sure there's no time screw ups because even the tiniest screw up shows up like a sore thumb. One of the lessons I learned from being around the old school black blues musicians was that if you phrase more of beats 2 & 4, it's MUCH easier to adjust to playing behind the beat (and often times you may find yourself playing much fewer notes to get the job done), but if you have a tendency to phrase more off the 1 & 3, you are more likely going to have a tendency to play ahead of the beat(and often times to go with it, play far more notes than needed). Here's a link to some past thread on this subject: The Beat I'll say one thing about this and that's talking about this stuff is a helluva lot easier than actually doing it!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte Last Edited by barbequebob on Jun 30, 2014 11:55 AM
tmf714 2627 posts Jun 30, 2014 11:58 AM	The best example to learn anything from about behind the beat would be almost any Willie Nelson song-it has nothing to do with race or color of skin. Willie is the best at singing behind the music and beat. You can screw up the groove in ANY music situation if your timing is off. Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 30, 2014 11:58 AM
Goldbrick 513 posts Jun 30, 2014 3:40 PM	Bob-if everyone plays behind the beat- that is the beat and the effect is kinda lost, it can be done for a lazy groove but its the contrast that makes it interesting- ie - the reggae guitar chanks on 2 and four while the drummer slides behind it, the organ bubbles over it Watch this 100 times and you will play behind the beat or die trying I guess , cause I am a drummer by trade I am kinda picky about time As far a sR and B bands not tolerating bad time- my bandmate played guitar for several top soul band and said - mess up the time and you were fined. A lot of that comes from the strong gospel roots of a lot of the players taht instills that sense of time. Thats why I hate jams- I will play some guitar or harp at jams but I wont get behind the drum kit unless there is a strong bass player - cause everybody just wants to blast their way in regardless of the beat= its like a conversation where everybody talks and no one listens Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jun 30, 2014 4:00 PM
walterharp 1436 posts Jun 30, 2014 5:53 PM	the best way to practice it is find a good backing track, and record yourself playing to the track. First try to hit right on the beats of the song.. Second try to play a millisecond ahead.. that is pushing the beat and will make you sound rushed, but not off time.. it is like the band is holding you back.. this is the effect Ricci gets often when his fast solos are really flying. then try to play very slightly behind. So it sound laid back. In no case should it sound like you are missing the time. At least this is the way I think about it. Phrasing way behind the beat is different in my mind and only the soloist can do that in the end it really helps to record yourself because often you are not playing the time you think you hear in your head. Be sure, when you do this, to use a low latency system so being behind the beat is a real thing
Jim Rumbaugh 1003 posts Jun 30, 2014 6:07 PM	I'll confess. I don't get it. I don't hear it. I didn't get it or hear it when it was discussed 2 years ago in "the beat" topic. The drum video sample did not work for me, all I could hear was the ride cymbal keeping a groove. The harp video didn't do it for me either. To me the harp video was about starting a phrase on the "and" of the beat. What I need to hear is someone playing against a groove, first on the beat, then ahead, then behind. Maybe then I'll be able to hear it. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV) Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Jun 30, 2014 6:08 PM
jnorem 343 posts Jun 30, 2014 8:19 PM	I just don't think that playing behind the beat is a thing to strive for. There isn't any one way to play behind the beat, it's a pretty amorphous concept. Just play well, no? If you have good time then play it the way you play it; if you have no time then you're probably chasing rainbows. ---------- Call me J
1847 1917 posts Jun 30, 2014 8:59 PM	Obviously I made damned sure I didn't screw that up EVER again so you never,ever, never never, ever ever,never never ever made another mistake?.... ever..... not even once? ...maybe? ---------- i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway" ---------- i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway"
Chris L 52 posts Jun 30, 2014 11:41 PM	BBQBob is providing some extremely valuable info here. This topic is so foundational but is one of the hardest for me to wrap my head around: Rhythm as the "underlying pulse" of the song vs. the "surface rhythm" you hear the musicians playing. (I'm using Michael Pilhofer's terms.)If there is syncopation, the surface rhythm, by definition, does not line up exactly on the underlying pulse. The best way for me to grasp this is experientially rather than intellectually: Listen to any song and let your body respond to the underlying pulse, tapping, swaying, nodding, whatever. The body picks it up. Once you get that established, listen to where the drum beats, bass notes and harp or guitar notes fall. Most laid back blues or jazz will be primarily close behind the beat while frequently rock will be on or ahead of the beat. Now I just have to practice enough to make this insight useful.....
Rgsccr 263 posts Jun 30, 2014 11:58 PM	Chris L - that is a great way to put it. Like you said, your body picks up the beat. For me,that happens with blues - without thinking I find myself tapping my foot, swaying, etc. - but usually not with anything else (unless it has blues roots). Been that way since the late 60s when I first heard blues (Sonny Boy II, Sonny Terry) and started playing harp. That feel and sound is what I love. I really struggle with getting our band to play that way. The guys are decent to very good, but come from a rock background. We only play blues, mostly Chicago blues and primarily covers, but I have to fight to get them to use examples from, say, Slim Harpo (for King Bee) instead of Kenny Wayne Shepherd. I don't want to copy Slim Harpo or Jimmy Rogers, and I understand that songs have always evolved and the way they played a song often was quite different in the 50s from the way that song sounded in the 30s (Dust My Broom). Even so, I do want to play those songs in a way that honors their style, and, for me, making them into blues-rock songs crosses the line. This discussion has given me a way of understanding what it is that I like so much about the blues. Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jul 01, 2014 12:04 AM
Frank 4743 posts Jul 01, 2014 2:41 AM	Here is a snippet from a 2 DVD set where Victor talks a little about TIME... I will set up snippet again later my bandwith is exceeded, I need to delete some stuff - thank you for your patience :) Last Edited by Frank on Jul 02, 2014 3:04 AM
kudzurunner 4758 posts Jul 01, 2014 4:05 AM	Just talking about the first three videos above: 1) The guitar player doesn't know what he's talking about. Funk creates tension by alternating between RIGHT on the beat--i.e., stressing the downbeat of beat 1 in a specific bar ("on the one")--and playing the three offbeats. There are three offbeats for every beat when you're dividing the beats into sixteenth notes, which is what funk does. There's the "middle" offbeat (one-a-AND-a), the early offbeat (one-A-and-a), and the late offbeat (one-a-and-A). Funk roams in carefully calibrated ways between those three offbeats, but always in relation to a strong downbeat. In the five-note pattern that opens "Play that Funky Music, White Boy," for example, THREE of the notes are downbeats (on beats 1, 2, and 3) and the other two are middle offbeats. Incredibly funky, and nothing is "early" or "late." The guitar player has no idea what he's talking about. 2) The drummer DOES know what he's talking about, especially when he returns for the second time to the "behind the beat" beat. He's slightly but noticeably lagging. His cymbal hits are very slightly lagging. 3) Ronnie, as Goldbrick notes, is using he word "behind" and "ahead" to refer not to his orientation to the groove, which remains contant, but to refer to when he's playing the notes on harp that correspond with the changes. He does an especially nice job of showing what it sounds like to hit the V chord a little bit before the end of bar 8, rather than right on the first beat of bar nine. Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 01, 2014 4:06 AM
Frank 4744 posts Jul 01, 2014 4:30 AM	Here is a little exercise that I made with a excellent program called "bounce metronome" It is set 120 beats a min and the (wood block click) is on the "1" So it is (click block) 2& 3& 4& (click block) 2& 3& 4& (click block)etc. Or (click block) 2 3 4 (click block) 2 3 4 (click block) etc. The Time stops and gives you time to internalize it then starts again to see if you remained in time. "Bounce Metronome" can do anything you can possibly imagine and MORE...(I am not exaggerating either ) The Creator has an option for you to pay for the download according to what you can afford... If all you can afford is a 5 dollars that is what he will sell it for :) EXTREMELY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TO GET THIS PRODUCT!!!!!! Last Edited by Frank on Jul 01, 2014 4:42 AM
The Iceman 1794 posts Jul 01, 2014 4:46 AM	Kudzu... I've found that, in funk, the measure is usually divided into 16th notes and the focus is, many times, on that last 16th note of the bar (or of each grouping of four) as an anticipation point. ---------- The Iceman
kudzurunner 4759 posts Jul 01, 2014 5:10 AM	Iceman: Having transcribed "Cissy Strut" and a couple of other funk beats, I was struck by how important both the early and late offbeat were. But also, the concept "on the one"--i.e., smack on the downbeat--is absolutely key for funk, as a quick read through the top five hits for the google search "funk on the one" will show: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=funk+%22on+the+one%22 Here's the master, Bootsy Collins, explaining all this. He starts with "on the one."
The Iceman 1796 posts Jul 01, 2014 5:15 AM	Kudzu.. After Bootsy establishes that landing on the one, listen to his first set of notes he fits in between the ones (22 seconds). Where are these notes landing? On the last of the 16th notes in each cluster, to give that feeling of anticipation. Without these, you've just got a beat that lands on the one and doesn't have that funk forward momentum. ---------- The Iceman Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 01, 2014 5:16 AM
barbequebob 2626 posts Jul 01, 2014 10:53 AM	@Goldbrick -- The assumption you make is that without one person on the bandstand has to be right on top of the beat to make behind the beat work and that only lead players are doing that, from personal experience with guys like a Jimmy Rogers, Louisiana Red, Sunnyland Slim and Luther Guitar Junior Johnson, all of whom I gigged with and learned plenty from would not ever want someone on top of the beat because it completely throws that behind the beat feel off. One of the few tunes where a drummer played the bass drum right on top of the beat, but played the snare behind the beat was Al Jackson Jr. when he was the drummer on the Wilson Pickett classic In The Midnight Hour, and very few drummers can pull that off. Hearing and FEELING this stuff is difficult for many of you because most of you have yet to learn how to pay extremely close attention to even the most minute details of what's happening, which is learning to listen to music more like the way real pro musicians, recording engineers and record producers listen to music, listening with "bigger ears," meaning every little detail no matter what. What really makes it so difficult for most people to catch on to these things is that unlike a flashy solo that smacks you upside the head like a baseball bat kind of obvious, these things are so subtle that it's ridiculously easy to miss as it's like split seconds after the beat. If you try to learn this stuff in the vast majority of open jams, you've got almost shot at it because most of the jammers, when it comes to groove, they're largely too clueless for this. Many people, ESPECIALLY white people, have easily bought into this ridiculous notion that the drummer is the beat, which is absolutely NOT true, and what I learned from real pros is that the drummer merely dresses this up, and those who believe the drummer is the beat is assuming that drummers NEVER mess up the time, and that is so NOT TRUE AT ALL as how can you in your right mind believe the drummer is the beat if he's constantly screwing up the time???? If you get a copy of Fred Dinkin's drumming book It's About Time has 2 CD's worth to tunes, tho none of them are blues, but they have about 10 tunes played in 3 different tempos, and each one is done ahead of the beat (I believe he calls in on top of the beat here), right on top of the beat (or as he calls it, in the middle of the beat) and behind the beat (or as he calls it, in back of the beat). You can clearly hear how the grooves sounds and feels so differently in each case. Sure it's a drumming book, but at least you can start to learn some real groove fundamentals here. Behind the beat is also playing off the "and," like a-and-2-and-3-and-4, or if played against a metronome (and all metronomes click right on top of the beat and cannot be programmed any other way), you're playing off the upbeats and ahead is off the downbeat. When I gigged with those guys and I didn't play behind the beat, they reamed my ass hard!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
timeistight 1603 posts Jul 01, 2014 11:01 AM	"Where are these notes landing? On the last of the 16th notes in each cluster, to give that feeling of anticipation." Isn't that syncopation, instead of playing ahead of the beat? I use the term "rotary perception." If you get a mental picture of the beat existing within a circle, you're more free to improvise. People used to think the notes had to fall on the center of the beats in the bar at intervals like a metronome, with three or four men in the rhythm section accenting the same pulse. That's like parade music or dance music. But imagine a circle surrounding each beat — each guy can play his notes anywhere in that circle and it gives him a feeling he has more space. The notes fall anywhere inside the circle, but the original feeling for the beat isn't changed. If one in the group loses confidence, somebody hits the beat again. The pulse is inside you. When you're playing with musicians who think this way, you can do anything. Charles Mingus Beneath the Underdog Think of the beat as one of those large balls people use for exercise. If you sit up straight at that top of the ball, you're on the beat. If you lean forward, you're ahead of the beat. If you lean back, you're behind the beat. Of course, if you lean too far either way, you fall off and mess up the time. Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 01, 2014 11:04 AM
The Iceman 1798 posts Jul 01, 2014 12:17 PM	when talking funk, it isn't playing ahead of the beat nor syncopation. It's anticipation...that last 16th is treated like the first 16th note of a cluster in straight time, only it occurs 1/16 of a note sooner. Listen to that Bootsy clip at around 22 seconds and you will hear it occurring with the placement of the notes he plays. Working with an all black funk band a few years ago, I learned all about this stuff...however, they would never explain the feel with words...they would play it at me and say "got it?". Took me a while to absorb it. ---------- The Iceman
timeistight 1604 posts Jul 01, 2014 12:58 PM	Well, whether it's syncopation or anticipation, it isn't "playing behind the beat," which is what the original question was about.
Goldbrick 515 posts Jul 01, 2014 1:19 PM	This is starting to become amusing- I understand discrepancies in the concept of timing- but the race thing is a hoot- I guess black musicians just play on instinct and cant adequately express themselves to explain--Do you realize how condescending and racist that sounds ? I guess next time if the drumstick wasnt good enuff he'd cut ya' with his razor- Come on - Some of you guys gotta get out more--like the 21st century I know you probably dont mean it the way it is written but I showed this thread to my kids who are teenagers and musicians ( and 1/2 black) and they busted a gut laughing at these stereotypes Again I apologize because I enjoy the discussion -but it is lookin' silly to stereotype Al Jackson Jr, was probably the greatest rock drummer ( other than Earl Palmer) and it must have been hard for him playing with Cropper and Dunn ( having to show them everything I guess) Again no offense-your knowledge is great and I appreciate it - but your presentation......
The Iceman 1799 posts Jul 01, 2014 2:40 PM	timeistight - true, but the conversation took a left turn with Kudzu and my answer to his funk reference..my posts were about that issue. Goldbrick....How is relating my experience with the funk band condescending and racist? Leader of this funk band has a Doctorate in Music from Manhattan School of Music. He felt feel was a better route to understanding than academic words. Seems as if you took my little recollection and somehow turned it into "I guess black musicians just play on instinct and can't adequately express themselves" Quite a stretch. More of your personal projection into the posting than my actual experience methinks. Now, moving on... ---------- The Iceman Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 01, 2014 2:50 PM
jnorem 344 posts Jul 01, 2014 5:56 PM	I'm sorry, but I think it's profoundly and fundamentally untrue that playing behind the beat is something to strive for as harmonica players. ---------- Call me J Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 01, 2014 7:03 PM
DukeBerryman 392 posts Jul 01, 2014 6:08 PM	I learned some new rhythms recently learning Hawaiian songs on the guitar. In a lot of slack key music, the beats are on the 1 and the "2 and". And sometimes it's the 1, 2 and, 3 and. Some of the time, I used a metronome, which really teaches patience. Of course, I was speeding up while I played. Using a metronome, you see the giant spaces in between the beats, and learn what it feels like to be patient and wait for the beat. I wouldn't suggest learning slack key to figure out how to play behind the beat. But getting off of the 1 and 3, and getting off of the 2 and 4 was liberating. And all those guitar teachers and harp teachers are right - use a metronome. Try it just once.
kudzurunner 4760 posts Jul 01, 2014 6:55 PM	Iceman: You and I agree. There's absolutely nothing we can fight about here--unless you try to dispute that the One isn't important. But I don't think you're doing that. What I've called the "early offbeat" is of course the note that is 1/16th ahead of the middle offbeat, and that early offbeat, too, is an important beat in funk. That particular stressed beat--the second 1/16th note in a given bar--shows up in "Cissy Strut." It shows up once in each bar of the two-bar main theme, and it shows up in the first bar of the secondary theme. The secondary theme ends once on that note and once on the third 1/16th note--the one you're talking about, the one that anticipates the following downbeat. "Cissy Strut" by the Meters is considered by many to be one of the foundational funk songs. It gets its funk, as I stated in my first post, by creating tension between an established downbeat on the One and the two stressed offbeats (early and late) rather than the "middle" offbeat. I've been playing with a heavy funk guitar player for the past 28 years, as you know. Neither he nor I ever diagrammed the music as I just have. We just knew how to funk. It's a feel thing, first and foremost, as you say. Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 01, 2014 7:01 PM
kudzurunner 4761 posts Jul 01, 2014 7:12 PM	Here's Leo Nocentelli playing and talking about the guitar part to "Cissy Strut." Even within the 1/16th note concept I'm talking about, there are regional variations in precisely where those sixteenth notes are placed by individual musicians relative to exact (metronomic) time. That's what makes for the magic of music. My own feeling is that Nocentelli and Bootsy carry the funk in very different ways, with Nocentelli and other NOLA musicians lagging slightly, playing behind the beat in BBQ Bob's terms, in a way that Bootsy doesn't do. Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 01, 2014 7:13 PM
Jim Rumbaugh 1005 posts Jul 01, 2014 7:32 PM	OK I got tired of waiting to learn about behind, on, and after the beat, so I went and found my own answer. Here's what I found. I hope it helps someone Listen to these 3 samples of Back, Middle, and Top, or in this tread, Before, On, and After. When I first listened, I heard no difference. They all 3 sounded good to me. Then I started patting my foot to the beat. As I listened to the SNARE, I could hear it coming slightly after my foot tap on the BACK/BEHIND track, with my foot on the MIDDLE/ON track, and slight before on the BEFORE/TOP track. These examples makes sense to me. I hope they help someone. Back or Behind the beat On or Middle of the beat Top or Before the beat ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV) Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Jul 01, 2014 7:34 PM
The Iceman 1800 posts Jul 01, 2014 7:51 PM	Kudzu... We're speaking of the same thing. My funk is urban .. Detroit .. Funkadelic. Yours is of New Orleans...The Meters Therefore, my reference point is from a different region than yours. Both revolving around the "1". ---------- The Iceman
barbequebob 2628 posts Jul 02, 2014 10:35 AM	@JimRumbaugh -- Thanks for posting that and you yourself had been for a long time unkowingly an example of how many players, regardless of what instrument they play, seldom really learn how to REALLY listen to music with "bigger ears," meaning listening to every minute detail, and not listening like the average music fan or a jam hack because none of that was in your face kind of obvious and if you don't pay close attention, you'll never learn this stuff. Now the samples of ahead and behind the beat you posted aren't dramatically different, but ever so slight, but for blues, if you need to hear blues played FAR behind the beat, what you need to pay close attention to the sounds of Muddy Waters, SBWII, LW, Howlin' Wolf, Eddie Taylor, Jimmy Reed. The behind the beat sample gave that groove a slightly blusier feel wheras the ahead of the beat sample gave it a slightly more rock feel. The hardest part is learning how each way feels PHYSICALLY to the point you can feel it and never have to think about it and it won't be something that's gonna happen overnight by a long shot. In a behind the beat groove, one to to pay attention to is the sense of space being developed and used to help build up tension and how many times players who play behind the beat often times tend to use much fewer notes to get their thing across. Jim, this is a very good start for you and keep it up!! Most people never learn to pay such close attention to details and listen only to solos and once you understand how grooves REALLY work, you can have a true feel for things and it will help your overall playing quite a bit. Learning these things allow you to more properly fit in within the context of what's going on. I know when I did a gig with a more rock oriented blues band, I had to change my approach from behind the beat to very slightly ahead to properly fit in on the gig and that's what learning groove is all about and obviously, it ain't just about the notes alone. Learning the ins and outs about groove is often times much harder to learn than solos are. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte Last Edited by barbequebob on Jul 02, 2014 1:12 PM
walterharp 1437 posts Jul 03, 2014 9:35 AM	Gives me a chance to post one of my favorite Paul Simon quotes again... Some people say music, that’s their ace in the hole Just your ordinary rhythm and blues Your basic rock and roll You can sit on the top of the beat You can lean on the side of the beat You can hang from the bottom of the beat But you got to admit that the music is sweet
barbequebob 2630 posts Jul 03, 2014 9:50 AM	@JimRumbaugh -- Where you posted that you had to listen closely to what the drummer's snare was doing was a tip I got when I was much younger by an old black pro bass player who told me that if you work in any band or even sit in with any ban, forget about listening to the solos and listen to where the drummer's 2 is. In your posted samples, just like in blues, the bass is on the 1 & the 3 and the snare drum is on the 2 & the 4. Just like that old pro told me, by listening to where that drummer's snare (AKA the drummer's 2) was, you were able to detect if the groove was either ahead, on top or behind the beat, which is EXACTLY what that pro told me. That lesson you've just learned is also how you can tell if the drummer's time sucks as well because whether the drummer is on top, ahead or behind the beat, if the snare ain't hitting in the exact SAME spot ALL THE TIME, then the drummer's time absolutely sucks and then it's like a quote from an old Bette Davis movie, and that's "Fasten your seat belts because this is gonna be a bumpy ride." If you have a drummer on the bandstand whose time sucks, everything on that bandstand regardless of who it is and their skill level is guaranteed to flat out suck no matter what. Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
blingty 32 posts Jul 04, 2014 9:44 AM	This variation in the note placement relative to the beat also happens in folk musics. I play Irish music and in different parts of Ireland you can hear people playing in different parts of the beat - it's quite a phenomenon, playing dance music solo and the tempo being steady, in time, with the instrument playing ahead of the beat. Of course it can't be ahead of the beat all of the time. I have to say, there's only so much of that ahead of the beat playing I can listen to without feeling disoriented though, probably the blues background coming out :-) As an aside, I think (as was also said above), that we especially pick up on this stuff when we transcribe records. Last Edited by blingty on Jul 04, 2014 9:45 AM
Jim Rumbaugh 1006 posts Jul 05, 2014 6:13 AM	I am still concerned about vocabulary being used. I am trying to figure if everyone is using the same definitions, and making their messages clear. Tell me if I have this right. Before the beat, after the beat.: the beat comes a very short moment of time before or after the beat set by the song. There is no standard notation for this. syncopation (per Google search) musical rhythm in which stress is given to the weak beats instead of the strong beats push the beat:(per my experience) starting on the "AND of 4", In Nashville notation the chord is preceded with a "<" to indicate the chord comes in early. example where measure 5 an 9 are pushed: \|1\|1\|1\|1\|<4\|4\|1\|1\|<5\|5\|1\|1\| ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Barley Nectar 433 posts Jul 05, 2014 10:29 PM	I was blessed at a young age by my HS music teacher, Eek the Freak. He told us to listen to music, not as a whole, but to take it apart and listen to each instrument individually. For some reason that stuck with me. I will sometimes slide behind the beat for a while then come back on top. This is a very cool change. And yes, this happens at jams but you have to have the right guys up there... Great Thread...BN
walterharp 1440 posts Jul 06, 2014 7:49 PM	that is how I understand the terminology... but hey, what do I know? Last Edited by walterharp on Jul 06, 2014 7:52 PM
barbequebob 2633 posts Jul 07, 2014 11:03 AM	@JimRumbaugh -- Before the beat is ahead of the beat, after the beat is behind the beat. There has never been any form of notation regarding this ever, as music notation really starts out from the classical school and that's all western music and playing ahead or behind the beat breaks tons of western music rules by the truckload. Jazz sax players often play things called smears and only recently has there been developed any sort of notation for these things. Pushing the groove, as I have learned it, is something you usually tend to see a lot of rock drummers do during the solo where, if the groove started out, for example being played right on top of the beat, during the solo, the groove gets pushed by the drummer playing a bit more ahead of the beat to make the groove be more in your face, but once the solo is done, they're supposed to revert back to being right on top of the beat, and if the groove was already ahead of the beat, they get a bit more ahead of the beat. One of the big reasons why when they're being recorded, especially by a major label, in the drummer's headphones, there's always gonna be a click track going (AKA a metronome) because if the groove gets even the slightest bit pushed too much, they can wind up rushing and badly screwing up the time, and again, if you screw up the time, you ARE screwing up the groove. Better examples that are much clearer showing the differences of being on top, ahead or behind the beat are contained in the Fred Dinkins drumming book It's About Time, which not only gives you tunes samples (tho none of them are blues), but they are also in three different tempos, each shown on top, ahead, as well as behind the beat, but also something the samples JimRumbaugh didn't have for you, and that's the actual beats per minute (BPM's) on the metronome. I HIGHLY RECOOMEND buying a copy of this book and you'll really learn more about it. In latin music, especially Afro-Cuban, in the percussion section, you'll often hear some parts dead on top of the beat, some slightly ahead of the beat and some slightly behind, but everyone's time is still on the money and it makes for a thicker sound with some added tension into the mix. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte Last Edited by barbequebob on Jul 07, 2014 11:04 AM
Rgsccr 265 posts Jul 07, 2014 1:20 PM	Bob, You've put up so much good info on this topic (as well as others). I really appreciate your expertise, and the fact that, as an experienced pro, you are willing to share what you've learned. I am starting to incorporate using a metronome into my practice, and I appreciate the specific suggestions that you and others have made about how to do this. At the same time, what has always worked best for me is to find artists and songs that sound like what I am aiming for, and learn them as best I can. My first step is to listen closely to the whole song (not just the solos)- hopefully, I am learning to do a better job of this as I go along - and then play along with the song until I can do a reasonable reproduction of it. While many (most) of the guys I like the best probably play "behind the beat" at least some of the time, and all of them hit a great groove no matter what they are doing, for me, I hear the type of groove I am looking for most consistently from Sonny Boy II and Jimmy Reed. So now I am incorporating a least a couple of songs from them - usually "My Younger Days" and "Down Child" from Sonny Boy, and maybe "Shame, Shame, Shame" or "Down In Mississippi" from Reed - into my daily practice. I also play "Juke" every day, along with several Butterfield songs, and something from Paul deLay and John Lee Williamson. Beyond that, I will practice songs we play in our band depending on how much time I have. Rather than using backing tracks much, I also like to pick some songs that do not have harp in them. Does this sound like a productive way to practice? In addition to what I do on my own, our band practices once a week, and I go nearly every week to a jam which features several long time pros in the jam band, and a regular lineup of some of the best musicians in Seattle dropping in to jam. I am definitely making progress with this routine, but I know I still have a long way to go (what the heck I am only 63). Still, I think I have gone from someone the better guys put up with because I did not play during their solos to a guy they feel can hold up his end of a song (barely). Thanks again for any suggestions. Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jul 07, 2014 1:24 PM

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