@Rgsccr --- Learning to truly listen to EVERYTHING that's going on and not just the damned solos is a huge first step in learning how to listen to music like a REAL musician and just listening only to solos is listening to music more like a jam hack and the more attention you pay to listening to all those details that the average jam hack thinks are too small, too boring, or too unimportant will help you separate yourself from them in a major way and don't be surprised that what you once thought was so great, you may now think of as crap, and don't allow yourself to get easily awed by solos because once you understand this stuff, your ears will get MUCH PICKIER and you'll find yourself not getting as easily impressed by that and if you ever watch those TV shows like American Idol and The Voice and hear the criticisms, they'll all make much more sense to you and much of what's being said you may find yourself in agreement because you're now learning how to listen properly.
It is a good idea to listen more to tunes WITHOUT harp in them and give yourself a chance to hear this much more easily and will help you avoid playing the usual cliches being constantly played and if you're playing to stuff on record with horns, that also will help expand you ten times over and so often in jams, I've seen too many players play the same thing over and over and never improve because they just do the same damned s**t and never learn any of the stuff I've mentioned and all they do is just stagnate and never improve one bit.
If you're lucky enough to go to jams with real area pros, don;t be afraid to ask questions about these things. A lot of musicians tend to make tons of dumb jokes about drummers, but if you're around a real good pro blues drummer, you can learn quite a lot from them. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks again Bob. I do ask a lot of questions and one of my best friends is both a harp player and trombone player who has been a pro since the 70s (Jeff Mason). He is very helpful and insightful, and his harp playing is very interesting due to what seem to me to be horn influences. He often explores parts of the harp that most guys don't use, even when playing down and dirty blues. I am also good friends with one of the best drummers in our area, and he is great to chat with as well. For the most part, with very few exceptions, the top players in our area are very supportive and helpful. For me, one of the best (though initially most intimidating) aspects of this jam was having to figure out how to play with horns (both my friend Jeff and several sax players who show up fairly regularly). Also, getting up with guys who call out songs in weird keys, minor keys etc., and non-blues stuff. I'm sure what I play with some of this oddball stuff is not great, but it makes me think and listen in order to come up with something. In the end, it's all good and fun, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jul 07, 2014 4:01 PM
Probably the single most influential harp player of them all in blues, Little Walter, much of the stuff he did is VERY horn based and whenever I hear harp players making incredibly dumb statements like, "If I wanted so sound like a horn, I'd go buy one," what most of them don't have a clue about is that LW really wanted to be a sax player but he couldn't afford one so he played it like one, using the swoops, dives, dynamics of the phrasing, swells, etc., and if you take the time to listen NOT just to the horn solos, but also how they're comping, whether it's a lick or working together as a section, where sometimes the line being played in unison or in stacked harmonies (AKA one player starts off at the root note, one starts at the 3rd, one starts at the 5th together), it'll help you learn how to work with them, as I had when I did some gigs with a band that had a 5-piece horn section and so I had to be part of the horn section, and that takes something the average harp player lacks, musical discipline and good listening skills.
You may learn some at jams that have real pros who know their stuff cold, but most jams have players who, to be honest about it, know damned near next to nothing and if you participate in jams like that, you're just gonna be doomed to regress.
Again, if you don't ask, you'll never learn anything!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Watching dancers can help too, we as the musicians, whether it be comping, vamping or takin a solo are hopefully making the notes dance rhythmically, in turn > causing others to move or clap or smile :)
@jnorem -- Both Muddy Waters and Jimmy Rogers both said that to me straight up without hesitating and a number of older black bluesmen have made mention of that. If you don't believe it, stop listening to harp players for at least two weeks and begin listening to sax players like Louis Jordan, Illinois Jacquet, and many of the jump sax players, or even to a tune by Gene Krupa called Let Me Off Uptown which features Anita O'Day on vocals and Roy Eldridge on trumpet and then compare it to LW's chromatic instrumental Fast Large One and it will become quite obvious. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I love Anita O'day! One of the best jazz singers ever.
Here's an old soundie of her with the Krupa band:
And here's her famous performance at Newport:
This is a masterclass in playing with the time -- pushing and pulling ahead and behind the beat -- while never losing the groove.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 21, 2014 3:08 PM
Playing behind the beat is a great thing and rare to hear from local bands. However,it's not written in stone. I was at a Dennis Gruenling workshop last month and he said he solos in all three modes-behind,on top and ahead of the beat. During his performance, I made a point of keeping time with the snare and listening to WHEN he played and not WHAT he played.Sure enough,his solos varied in timing,just as he stated.
This is not going to be popular, but I can't help myself. It's about GROOVE. Simply playing behind the beat does not create groove. Placement of notes in relation to the beat is part of it. But, simply lagging behind the beat without groove is just lame. And if you've got a drummer who plays behind the beat and you lay back your tempo and start playing behind his beat that's just going to create a mess. Dragging time is never going to create groove. Shellist's vid sorta doesn't make much sense in this context, and he has some vids on YT of duo performances where there ain't no coherent groove period. This has nothing to do with anticipating chord changes. I play with all black bands pretty regularly and the notion that hip black musicians worship at the altar of playing behind the beat is bullshit. It all depends on the GROOVE. You can sometimes be placing notes on or behind the beat in the same measure of a particular tune depending on the GROOVE.
Now, the reality is that some of the drummers on old blues records weren't very good, and their time dragged. Others play a legitimate behind the beat groove with good time. Moral of the story: simply playing behind the beat by itself doesn't accomplish much. But, in the words of Tony Glover, blow as thou pleaseth.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jul 16, 2016 5:32 PM
Playing behind the beat is not as difficult as one might imagine. However, first requirement is a BarBQue Bob's sense of solid tempo internalized. It must become part of one's "No Doubt" playing.
Then, it is easy to "ignore" the beat and place your notes where you want to - a little behind that beat, right on it, or anticipating it. At this point, you are not ATTACHED to the beat, but floating over it, looking down on it and deciding where to place your ideas with more freedom.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 17, 2016 8:19 AM
Part of what hvyj is talking about really isn't playing behind the beat in its truest sense, but actually dragging it and I absolutely agree on the fact that you NEED a drummer who knows what the heck playing behind the beat is all about, a drummer who REALLY knows their s**t and if your playing experience is only in open jams, 98% of the drummers there aren't gonna have a freaking clue about it and unfortunately, 50-80% of the jammers who are drummers have absolutely HORRIBLE time and they're not gonna help you out one bit. I know for some of you it just sounds like I'm dissing jammers, but like it or not, everything I'm telling you is the unvarnished truth and that's one of the very big reasons you seldom see pros at 80% of the open jams around the world.
Hvyj has the exact same criticism I have about Ronne Shellist's video concerning playing ahead, on top and behind the beat because , to brutally honest, that's NOT what is happening there at all. What he's actually doing would be best described in the following way. Now most songs are 4/4 time, meaning 4 beats to every measure. When he's says he's playing ahead of the beat, that is NOT what he's actually doing because what he's REALLY doing is starting the phrase at beat #4 just before the next measure, sometimes referred to as playing off the 4. When he says on top the beat, what he's actually doing is playing of beat #1 in the measure, sometimes referred to as playing off the 1. When he says playing behind the beat, what he's actually showing you is that he's playing off beat #2, often referred to as playing off the 2.
Now when you're with a drummer for most blues tunes, the bass drum is gonna be hitting on beats 1 and 3 and then the snare drum on beats 2 and 4. There are lots of rock and country tunes that use this too, but a large number of rock and country tunes do this entirely in reverse. Now why am I saying this?? Right off the beat, when the snare is off the 2 and the 4, you are naturally inclined play behind the beat and so the transition to playing that way is MUCH easier. If you play off the 1 and the 3, you're FAR more likely to play ahead of the beat and rush the crap out of the groove.
On the other hand here, the one thing you MUST bear in mind and that none is this can be accomplished if you're one of those musicians that buy into one of the dumbest things that I've ever had the displeasure to hear, and that the drummer is the beat. That's just flat out jam hack stupidity in a nutshell and no reputable pro in their right mind will EVER tell you stupid s**t like that!!!!!
If you have a rhythm section who can play behind the beat, it's easier to deal with,no doubt, but still in order to master this stuff, as a harmonica player, you need to stop whining about this one thing every non pro harp player bitches and means about, and that's learning to get their damned time straight. If you don't get your time straight first, you have absolutely NO SHOT at EVER mastering how to play behind the beat. This is true not only for harmonica players, but EVERY musician REGARDLESS of what instrument you play. I can tell you from being in the pro thing that if your time sucks, you are automatically considered a really crappy musician and you've got a 98% chance of getting yourself fired. If you get your time straight, making the transition is gonna be 1000% easier but if your time sucks and you're too damned hard headed to work on getting your time straight, you have NO CHANCE IN HELL to master this stuff, plain and simple.
BTW, whenever I've met musicians who buy into that incredibly dumb jam hack philosophy that the drummer is the beat, I automatically know for a FACT, that musician's time absolutely sucks and sucks really bad and because of that they're completely unable not only to tell the difference of when they just screwed up the time, but also whenever anyone else on the bandstand has as well and that means getting your time straight will up your musical skills not just from a playing standpoint, but also from a listening standpoint as well.
Again, you gotta get your own time straight FIRST before attempting to play behind the beat because the natural sense of tempo HAS to be internalized and there's no other way to do it. Now I hear so many harp players tell me that they can't keep the time or count off the time but when the band plays, that's when their time is good, Well, I've got some harsh news for you and the fact is that you're time is NOT good at all because it's the band, namely two musicians in this order, the drummer and the bass player that's hiding your musical warts and making you sound a million times better than you actually are at the moment. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jul 19, 2016 10:28 AM
Well, I'll take it a step farther. Shellist has very strong technique and can play the hell out of the harmonica. I haven't made an extensive review of all his stuff, but most of what I have heard from him sounds kind of white. The cat ain't particularly funky. So, it's weird listening to him try to conceptualze groove. He may be very good at a lot of other things, but we all have our strengths and weaknesses. FWIW
