jnorem
12 posts
Feb 01, 2014
7:47 PM
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I’m no expert on harmonica design and construction, but I’ve think I know a little about it, I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and been playing for 45 years, so I hope I’ve worked this out right.
There are licks I want to play that I can’t on the current configuration of diatonic harmonicas, and it’s because everything (going down) stops at the first hole. We’ve all heard it. The lick that can’t be completed.
But the whole thing could be changed, and it wouldn’t affect the way the harmonica is played. The layout would essentially be the same, but with one change: it would all be moved up one hole.
The top hole, 10 – I’ve never played it, because it just doesn’t sound very good; it’s a squeaky, beepy sounding thing. I never understood why those were there. But if you were to pull the those two reeds out of that hole, and replace them with the two reeds in hole 9, you’d free up hole #1, because everything would then be shifted up a hole.
Let’s say you have a C harp. The reeds in hole 1, blow C and draw D, are now in hole 2. And then we continue down to the first hole, which now plays G3 blow and B3 draw, one full octave below hole 3 (which used to be hole 2). Are you following this?
So here’s the layout:
Upper reed plate, blow:
G3 - C4 - E4 - G4 - C5 - E5 - G5 - C6 - E6 - G6
Lower reed plate, draw:
B3 - D4 - G4 - B4 - D5 - F5 - A5 - B5 - D6 - F6
This allows you to follow through on licks going down into the lower register. And it doesn’t require manufacturing anything new, because Hohner has plenty of 10-hole diatonic reed plates and combs, and plenty of reeds in those pitches.
So. What do you think?
Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 01, 2014 7:47 PM
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AW
156 posts
Feb 01, 2014
7:57 PM
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Seydel sells one more or less like this, the solist 12.
It's holes 1-9 of a standard harp with a octave lower 1-3 on the low end. (so your regular diatonic starts on hole 4 and ends the the highest notes in hole 12 being the same as Richter 9.
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laurent2015
573 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:15 PM
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From G3 to B3 there are 4 half steps? I've never seen that and neither do the suppliers, I'm afraid; or you have to take blow reeds plates from one harp and draw reeds plates from another? Besides I'm not sure that you still can refer to "playing in x position" so that the circle of fifth becomes unuseful.
Nevertheless why not imagine a "mixed" harp where the layout would be really different all along the harp?
edit: you could then be the first to play free jazz with that modified harp!
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Feb 01, 2014 8:20 PM
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jnorem
13 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:27 PM
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I didn't say anything about half-steps. And the circle of fifths is the circle of fifths. It cannot be made unusual, it just is.
Let me have another go with with this. II think I see how I went wrong here, anyway I knew there'd some…incredulity.
Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 01, 2014 8:43 PM
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Gnarly
894 posts
Feb 02, 2014
12:07 AM
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I shift the tuning up sometimes, just gave David Fairweather the High G inversion tuning I made reference to in the "High G, Low F" thread (I had it at NAMM). He seems to like it--so far . . .
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MN
310 posts
Feb 02, 2014
1:13 AM
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No 10 hole!? How do you play Whammer Jammer? Or hit the high note in 4th position?
Last Edited by MN on Feb 02, 2014 1:14 AM
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GMaj7
345 posts
Feb 02, 2014
5:26 AM
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JNOREM
You are actually on to something that chromatic players have complained about for years. Seydel sells a chrom that solves that problem but they add 2 notes on to the left and chop them from the right. They call it the Orchestra model..
Anyhow, I love alternate tuning and love experimenting with this stuff.
I'm happy to build a 10 hole version for you and refund the sale price if you decide it isn't for you.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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The Iceman
1435 posts
Feb 02, 2014
6:35 AM
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ooh, this is exactly a configuration I've played with in my mind for about 10 years...although I've never spent the time to actually retune a harmonica and try it.
In concept, it would be fun and allow for some interesting idea extensions down.
Greg, contact me offlist about building one...IcemanLE@aol.com
I think the Steve Baker Special tuning is similar.
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The Iceman
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laurent2015
574 posts
Feb 02, 2014
6:48 AM
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jnorem: no incredulity from my part, except (maybe) for playing
BLUES with the new model.
Years ago, on a french forum, I asked the question of a "mixed harp" but that topic found no echoes!
If GMaj7 can help you to achieve such an instrument, it would be great, but then, as I said with candor, this instrument has to help you playing some other musics (african, asian, free jazz, middel-eastern...)that you need to analyse (how they are built?)
I'm not an expert either, so this is MHO.
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harpdude61
1963 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:16 AM
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This really does make sense for a mainly 2nd position harp. Especially on higher harps like E and F which most players rarely use the 10 hole anyway. 10 blow is your root note in cross harp. Interesting idea!
Addition..this is NOT an alternate tuning nor does it impact the circle of fifths. Same as a standard 10 hole diatonic. Just move everything to the right one hole. New useful notes on hole 1!
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Feb 02, 2014 9:21 AM
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laurent2015
576 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:52 AM
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???????????OK with you about 2d position: your statement comes from the circle of fifth; it says also that in 3d position, for a G harp, you play in A...do you see a bendable A in the new configuration?
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Feb 02, 2014 9:56 AM
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AW
157 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:13 AM
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The idea is that this isn't a G harp, it's still intended to be a C harp.
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jnorem
14 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:37 AM
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harpdude: "This really does make sense for a mainly 2nd position harp. Especially on higher harps like E and F which most players rarely use the 10 hole anyway. 10 blow is your root note in cross harp. Interesting idea!
Addition..this is NOT an alternate tuning nor does it impact the circle of fifths. Same as a standard 10 hole diatonic. Just move everything to the right one hole. New useful notes on hole 1!"
Yes, it's still pretty much the same diatonic harmonica, I don't see how it would impact the other positions at all and it wouldn't take anything away from playing cross harp, in fact it would add to it.
And yes, it would be great for the higher keys, and also for the low keys made in the higher pitches. Think of a high G, it would be great for that.
Maybe I'll call it the "Norem System".
I don't see not being able to faithfully reproduce "Whammer Jammer" as a deal-killer.
Hey, Greg. We'll talk.
J
Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 02, 2014 6:47 PM
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smwoerner
233 posts
Feb 02, 2014
12:02 PM
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If you take a G-blow and an A-draw your pretty close to this configuration and the same with an A and an Ab. I grabbed a couple of old reed plates and played with this for a minute. I can tell you that getting all the way down to the Ab on the first hole is almost impossible. The four hole is more managable to get all 4 half step bends.
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Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
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jnorem
15 posts
Feb 02, 2014
1:01 PM
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Interesting!
Yes, it would be difficult, I imagine, to draw-bend the Ab in hole 1.
Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 02, 2014 1:02 PM
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clyde
341 posts
Feb 02, 2014
2:03 PM
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gmaj7.....that's what 14 hole chromatics are for and why many play 16 holers.
inorem....better make one before brenden power makes one.
also ... that is just what the zirk tuned seydel 10 holer does.
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jnorem
16 posts
Feb 02, 2014
4:50 PM
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It's in the works, Clyde.
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GMaj7
346 posts
Feb 02, 2014
5:30 PM
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Clyde,
I'm not sure what you are saying.
Zirk tuning is considerably different from this tuning.
Zirk is a complete complete scale - adjacent notes - with no duplication.
This is not anywhere close to Zirk but just an extension of the style commonly used in Richter. A sort of chopped SBS.
As far as 14 and 16 holer chroms, you are correct except Seydel doesn't make them 14 or 16 and instead makes an Orchestra tuning.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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jnorem
18 posts
Feb 02, 2014
6:24 PM
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Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 02, 2014 9:57 PM
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jnorem
19 posts
Feb 02, 2014
6:41 PM
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Why is it called Zirck?
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harpwrench
765 posts
Feb 02, 2014
7:39 PM
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I've done it, it's a fairly painless retune job if you start with a lower harp in the key of your 2nd pos tonic. I liked messing with it mostly in 3rd position, no issues getting all 3 half steps on hole 1 either.
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clyde
346 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:47 PM
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greg,
I was not very clear writing down my thoughts. jnorem wanted notes below the C note on a harp in the key of C. that's just what the zirk tuned harp does. it provides those notes. that's all I was meaning. and no it's not close to richter tuning I know this as I have 3 zirk tuned harps.
as far as seydel not having 14 or 16 hole chromatics...i didn't imply they did.I only mentioned seydel in relation to the zirk tuned harps.
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GMaj7
347 posts
Feb 03, 2014
5:12 AM
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jnorem
Why is it called Zirck?
I have NO CLUE and it always confuses me...
Maybe Clyde knows..
I always kind of thought it had to do with a foreign word meaning
SPIRAL or CIRCULAR... but maybe not..
Maybe there is some harmonica dude name Zirck out there?
Anyone?
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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laurent2015
577 posts
Feb 03, 2014
8:38 AM
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Zirk for "zirkular"...it comes from Germany, Seydel,circular tuning.
Mike Rubin would be greatly interested in this topic I think.
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Feb 03, 2014 9:31 AM
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clyde
347 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:04 AM
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yes zirk for zirkular or as i say circular. here is an example of how seydel tunes their zirk harps
hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... top blow lower draw
g b d f a c e g b d
a c e g b d f a c e
in seydel language this is a G zirk tuned harp....however the harp is played in the key of C.
we can get into why they label them that way later.
seydel did not invent this tuning but they have done the most to help it along.
the guys who invented the tuning called it spiral and started a C harp on C and the notes just spiraled up the harp...so to speak.
i prefer the way seydel tunes them for the very reason you want to lower the first couple holes on your harps.
Last Edited by clyde on Feb 03, 2014 9:05 AM
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dougharps
538 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:16 AM
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This tuning is a 14 hole Steve Baker Special with the first two and last two holes chopped off to make a 10 hole harp. I think it is a viable idea.
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Doug S.
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GMaj7
351 posts
Feb 08, 2014
7:30 PM
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I just built a Session Steel in J-Nor's tuning that is the topic of this thread.
It is actually pretty cool as it allows 3 full octaves of the 2nd position scale.
I'm thinking this would be a great harp for the higher keys. In fact, it would be a great way to get a High G where the 1st note would be a D.
Some really cool possibilities and interesting ways to make creative music on the harp that sounds a little different. Good thinking JNOR..
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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jnorem
24 posts
Feb 09, 2014
3:24 PM
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That's fantastic news, Greg. Can't wait to get mine!
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