Master? Not by any means. Hold his own for the type of stuff his band plays? Sure. Pretty much the going trend for the classic rock band harp players with a few exceptions like Plant, Sebastian, and Lewis. ----------
"Master"? No, hardly. Semi-competent within his small wheelhouse but no great shakes. And I say this as a long time Stones fan. Say what you will, they did more for awareness of the genuine blues creators than anyone ever. ---------- LSC
It doesn´t take a whole lot to be considered a "harp master", sadly. In a documentary Keith R said about Mick´s harmonica playing something along the line that he was "the best of the lot", or one of.
And that´s from a guy who has played with a great number of great harmonica players.
I have no idea whether Jones had skill. Keith says Mick does. I think I've heard Mick play ok, nothing flash though. I really haven't paid much attention to the Stones since the early 80s, and not much then either really. Great band in many ways, I don't think Mick really makes any claims about his skill. He has used the harp effectively on a few records I think, but I couldn't say which, off the top. What did Jones play on? ----------
John Popper asked about a comment he allegedly made about Jagger, that he should never be allowed to pick up a harp again, replied that it wasnt right, it was Alanis Morrisette who should be banned. the interviewer said something like "i didnt realise she played harp":
JP: Uh, I don't think she does, either. There's so many other harp players who are worse than Mick Jagger. I find it hard to believe I'd say that... I actually met Mick Jagger, and I said, "If you need my help on 'Miss You...,'" and he said, "Well, I'll let you know, thanks." And I think I kind of hurt his feelings the way I put it to him. And in Rolling Stone, I read Keith Richards kind of saying to Mick, like, "Hey, why don't you get the guy from Blues Traveler to sit in?," like fucking with him, and Mick's, like, "Fuck off!" And the interviewer's like, "Yeah, he's good." And Mick said, "Too good." And I was on cloud nine. That's one of my favorite stories I'll ever have. Mick Jagger says I'm too good. How cool is that? ----------
I sat and watched the Glastonbury footage on the BBC the other day. They did Midnight Rambler.
Harp players like Mick Jagger annoy me as they feel their playing is sufficient for public consumption. I feel this illustrates a degree of disdain for the instrument and the many fine harp players out there. Although I'm also very aware that no one other than harp players and blues fans could care less.
The other reason is that they all seem to love that 5 hole draw. Ha! I think manufacturers should put a stopper in the reed slot to prevent this mortal sin against the harp.
The Glastonbury show did help me in putting my prejudices aside though. Midnight Rambler is cool as. So is Gimme Shelter. Miss You, whilst played by Sugar Blue on the record is played by old rubber lips when The Stones do it live.
In fairness, I think that in spite of his lack of competence, Mick Jagger has done his share in advancing that harmonica and whilst he's no master, he's done us all a favour.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on Jul 02, 2013 1:24 AM
I flicked through the recording to see Midnight Rambler specifically to hear his harp playing. It was as expected - sufficient. I think it probably sounded great to a non harp player, so, no big deal.
Steve - can you please tell me more about your thoughts on the 5 hole draw? I'm suddenly paranoid I'm playing it too much?
Check this vid. It's not that the 5 hole draw is a bad note per se. It's just that it needs to be handled with a degree of control. Watch this very early Jason Ricci vid. He starts talking about the 5 hole draw from 2:50
That video by Jason and I believe one other where he talks about getting more mouth on the harp has been such a big help to my playing. I am glad I discovered his tutorials within days after getting my first harps. ---------- Bend it like Ricci - Me
Yeah, technically, Jagger is an intermediate harp player. There are stacks of members on this forum that could play circles around him.
He's also one of the most successful, dynamic and long lived musicians of our time. The appreciation and enjoyment that his countless fans get when he does what he does with his ability on harp far exceeds the achievements of probably most of the greatest of us 'serious' harp players.
Its not about how technically well you play; its about how much people like what you do.
Personally, while I appreciate the skill of the million note a minute turbo players, its more about groove and feel.
---------- Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Jul 02, 2013 3:52 AM
Little Walter is a Master at how to use the "5 draw" he has many outstanding riffs were he uses the 5 draw judiciously -creating magnificent phrasing architecture and impeccable sound combinations :) The 5 draw is a note that needs to be studied as a world of its own - its potential is limitless, once the ear hears it in the context of blues language. Again, Little Walter uses it in such a way that it sounds literally perfect within the context of the song! For the average player - being such a powerful note, it can cause difficulty figuring out how to use it's power for good and not evil!
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 02, 2013 4:36 AM
On reflection I'm just trying the right the many wrongs I've done Jagger over the years. He's not a great harp player, but there's enough people who've picked the harp up because of him and The Stones.
Besides, I bought my first harp because of Bono so I'm hardly one to talk. Ha!
"The 5 draw is a note that needs to be studied as a world of its own - its potential is limitless, once the ear hears it in the context of blues language"
that's why most of my repairs are five draw. :-) It's the coolest blusiest note on the entire harp.
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jul 02, 2013 12:25 PM
John, indeed he did. I got to listen to some of the soundtrack to Mord und Totschlag that he wrote. His harp was outstanding there. Here's a couple different renditions of Fade Away with Jones.
Just as others have alluded to above, Mick is and has been a great performer for decades. When he takes the stage, he gets credit not only for the performance at hand but for his whole body of work, much the same as Frank Sinatra did at the end. No matter how he sounds playing harp, he ACTS like he's great, and the fans don't argue. I could stand on the same stage (like a lump), play better harp and be dodging tomatoes. In the end, when you add it all up, money, adulation, p***y, longevity, the flabby-armed old bastard has done pretty well.
"I flicked through the recording to see Midnight Rambler specifically to hear his harp playing. It was as expected - sufficient. I think it probably sounded great to a non harp player, so, no big deal." - Jbear
Sounding great to the non-player is what it's all about though. Musicians who forget that they're playing for the fans in the audience, i.e. the paying customers, as opposed to other musicians soon find that their audience has diminished to a very few musicians, and they then have to find other day jobs.
Last Edited by Foxhound on Mar 07, 2014 9:29 AM
Jagger is not a harp master, and none of the Stones are virtuosos of any consideration, but they are musically capable, imaginative, and know what works in terms of texture. They are masters of making their three chord blues-based tunes sound masterful; they ar not afraid to be simple. Let us say that Jagger and company work BRILLIANTLY within their limitations. Jon Popper never came up with a harp riff as ominous nor memorableas what what Jagger does on Gimmie Shelter or Midnight Rambler. Nothing. ---------- Ted Burke http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
Play what the music calls for.. That's something many guys forget. I would rather listen to Jaggers rather simple style than Poppers instrumental jerking, so it's very much in the ear that listens. But then again, I'm a big fan of the old-School stuff ;)
John Popper's flaw is that he thinks he's John Coltrane. Jagger's advantage is that he knows he's not John Coltrane. ---------- Ted Burke http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
I agree with foxhound. It would sound great to a non-harp player. And that's what counts.
Michael Rubin once told me that, as a harmonica player, we have the opportunity to hit it out of the park every time. Because there aren't as many of us, and people are not used to hearing harmonica.
Mick Jagger owns that instrument when he's on stage. It's all confidence.
Huh, that'd be Sugar Blue playing on "Miss You". ---------- Ricky B http://www.bushdogblues.blogspot.com RIVER BOTTOM BLUES--crime novel for blues fans available at Amazon/B&N and my blog THE DEVIL'S BLUES--ditto
Ted, as for Midnight Rambler, I agree 100% with you,I mean regarding the music, not the lyrics. The piece wouldn't be the same without the harp, and yet Jagger plays maybe four or five different notes in that tune: that's great. I've heard that the basic idea was to evoke a kind of "Jack the Ripper" who was exactly a midnight rambler. If it's true, that jelling basic idea yields eventually THE song, well,I find it great also. As for me, Midnight Rambler doesn't seem to come from the Rolling Stones: it's a real artwork.
@ Ted Burke. I would agree with you almost 100%, but I do think you are possibly undervaluing the excellence of Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman as a rhythm section. They may not show their virtuosity playing with the Stones, but with their own bands and on their own solo material I think they are superb musicians in their own right.
Last Edited by Gipsy on Mar 06, 2014 11:58 PM
@Gipsy: Hello, good sir. Actually I don't think I under the value of any member of the Rolling Stones , since theirs is a prime example that chemistry between the members is as important as the musicianship. Watts and Wyman are , doubtlessly, one of the most important rhythm sections in rock and roll history, and together they have laid the fundamentals on which several decades of amazing music has been made. Neither, though, are virtuosos in the sense we usually mean it. Zappa said that a virtuouso "can play anything" in terms of what's put in front of him, which I think is close to the mark. Keith Richards is not Andre Segovia, Charlie Watts is not Buddy Rich, Bill Wyman is not Ron Carter. And Jagger, certainly, is not Sinatra, not Otis Redding, not Muddy Waters. All that is besides the point , however, as rock and roll and the blues itself has been about transcendence, of a kind. That is why I always stress what is, perhaps, an alternative definition of virtuosity, which is merely doing brilliant things with the technique you do have, that is, you transcend your technical limits and connect your skills to a set of emotions, a vibe, a great song that must be served with the best a musician can bring to it. The Stones, as a collective creative unit, have done this for decades. Their music is that of a band, not a rhythm section backing a flashy soloist. What they do is fantastic, rare and precious. ---------- Ted Burke http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
As if Sir Mick needs more attention. Listen or dont listen its your choice
This is amusing because what ever instrument u play this type discussion comes up. I am primarily a drummer and bring up Charlie Watts and see what happens- same stuff
" Charlie sux etc he's no -----fill in your favorite obscure or whatever drummer here" Yet Charlie is a great BAND drummer.
The Rolling Stones are a great BAND not a supergroup of Berklee musicians.
Why not pick on Mick's guitar or tambourine playing too.
The only "great" musician the stones ever had was Mick Taylor and he quit 'cause he didnt fit in.
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Mar 07, 2014 7:23 AM
How can this be - Mick is a harp master, why did'nt he play it himself - I'm confused, you sure it's not him, are you saying he is not good enough to have played that?
Last Edited by Frank on Mar 07, 2014 8:34 AM
