rpavich
36 posts
Jun 25, 2013
2:07 AM
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Just a question: I noticed that my draw bends on the lower notes; -3 especially sound "honky" and much different from other notes, sort of obnoxious. I'm guessing that they should "blend in" more with the other notes...lol.
Any tips for getting them to "sound" more like the surrounding notes?
Next question (related to that) do people TRY and make their other notes more "honky-like" to match the drawing notes? (I hope that made sense)
Last Edited by rpavich on Jun 25, 2013 2:08 AM
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The Iceman
951 posts
Jun 25, 2013
2:54 AM
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I understand your second question.
In order to make the notes sound more uniform overall, you wonder if one can approach it from the other direction..i.e., make the "given" notes sound harsher in order to blend in with your "honky" notes created through bending technique.
This isn't bad logic at all, as the goal is to strive for seamlessness in the tone of all the notes.
However, one can move the notes created through bending techniques more towards the tone of those "given" notes. This is probably the better choice of the two options.
It's your bending technique that needs adjustment. Can you get to a good one on one teacher who inspires you?
There are a few philosophies regarding the best way to approach bending.
I primarily teach these days and have had total success with demonstrating bending as a function of tongue position in the mouth. All my students (most of them total beginners) have no trouble with "honky" sounding bends following this path and seem to bend right to pitch within a week or two of learning this technique.
There are plenty of posts here in which I've outlined this approach....search the older postings with topics that are similar to yours.
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The Iceman
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arzajac
1089 posts
Jun 25, 2013
2:56 AM
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Are you bending down past the pitch you are aiming for? The three draw has three semitone bends. If you are bending to the floor, it will sound, as you say (and I never thought of putting it that way) obnoxious.
In one of his handouts, Joe Filisko described the ability to control the pitch and add vibrato to the 3 draw bends as one of the things that separates a harp player from a master harp player.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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rpavich
37 posts
Jun 25, 2013
3:30 AM
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Iceman,
No...sadly I have no teachers here. I'd LOVE to have someone here that could help me in real time to evaluate what's actually happening with my playing.
I'll certainly search your bending topics..that sounds very promising. I appreciate the help very much.
for reference; here is what the full step on draw 3 bend sounds like:
G major pentatonic
Last Edited by rpavich on Jun 25, 2013 3:32 AM
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rpavich
38 posts
Jun 25, 2013
3:33 AM
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arzajac,
No...I'm not hitting the floor with that bend...but I know what you mean...lol.
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rpavich
39 posts
Jun 25, 2013
4:06 AM
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Iceman...can you point me to one particular thread where you outline your "tongue does the bends" technique?
I did a search but I got a LOT of irrelevant hits.
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Milsson
74 posts
Jun 25, 2013
9:50 AM
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In general the further back on your toungue the bend is happening the "bigger" the sound is going to be. When you do a bend two reeds sound in stead of one. To get a more natural sound you have to adjust the pressure to get the same amplitude as the regular notes.
The sad thing with bends is that yo'll probably develop your bends thru out your whole career.
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Grey Owl
183 posts
Jun 25, 2013
10:40 AM
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I agree with Milsson. Even when you get better on the bends there is still a tonal difference between the straight draw and the bent draw and practice and technique will lessen the difference but it's still there.
You have made a good start getting the bend. I still remember that buzz in getting my first bent note (and that was a long time ago!)But that satisfaction didn't last all that long because you constantly want to improve. Like Iceman I use a lot of tongue placement to bend the notes but unfortunately I can't describe exactly what I do other than arching my tongue to various degrees. I know that other players are not so much aware of the action of the tongue but bend in the throat area.
One thing that helped me work on these bends was to try and play a pop/rock song. This got me to thinking of trying to hit the bend on pitch. If you know the tune really well you will be aware when you're not hitting pitch correctly and you keep practicing to get as close as you can. Like Milsson says - 'The sad thing with bends is that yo'll probably develop your bends thru out your whole career.'
The simple truth is that it's not easy to hit pitch bends well. When you start developing a bit of vibrato, that can help as it can slightly mask not hitting the pitch straight off.
I have been playing on and off for years and they are still a challenge to get right.
I recently posted this small segment of a song which has a half step bend on hole 2 and a whole step and a whole step and a half bend on 3 and it makes for good practice.
On a Bb harp.
-2* = half step bend on hole 2
-3**= whole step bend on hole 3
-3***= whole step and a half bend on hole 3
-2, -3**-3-3**-2-2*+2
-2*-2-3**-2-2*+2-1
+2,-2*-2+2-2*-2-3**,-3+4-3***
-3**-3+4-4+5-4+4-3-3**
+4-4+4ob-4+4-3-3**
-3+4-3+4-3-3**-2-3**, +2-3, -3-2
Good luck with your harp journey it's great fun and frustrating in equal measure!
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Michael Rubin
768 posts
Jun 25, 2013
12:25 PM
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Rpavich,
Lots of teachers, myself included, teach by skype. For my lessons, feel free to contact me and find more information at Michaelrubinharmonica.com
Although my youtube videos are about theory, privately I teach everything.
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tookatooka
3359 posts
Jun 25, 2013
12:46 PM
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Nice one @Grey. That sounded fabulous. Good practice tune for the bends.
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FMWoodeye
690 posts
Jun 25, 2013
2:40 PM
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You are off to such a good start that I don't think you have a "problem." As you get to "own" the bends more and more, you will be able to refine the tone.
I will reiterate that there is no substitute for one-on-one instruction. This is an expense, but it's not something you have to do every week. A pro can listen to you, evaluate and give you goals to work on. Skype is pretty effective. I've taken Skype lessons from Ronnie Shellist and Todd Parrott, and both helped me greatly. The Iceman wasn't available when I approached him (I've forgotten why, maybe booked solid, maybe a geography thing) and Michael Rubin above taught Ronnie Shellist to bend, so he's been around for a while. Mr. Rubin is on my short list of teachers to contact once I'm in condition to take lessons again. If you go to the home page on this site, a bunch of qualified teachers are listed.
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thescip
19 posts
Jun 25, 2013
6:41 PM
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I saw a video once, I can't remember who it was, it might have been Adam's, to try to do the Batman them song on the 2 draw to get the different bends. To make it sound right you've got to get the 2 draw, 2 draw half-step and 2 draw whole-step bends.
Where ever I picked it up, I've been using it for a while when I get new harps to check my tongue position on the bends, it really helps quite a bit.
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MakaInOz
83 posts
Jun 25, 2013
7:29 PM
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Trying playing bent notes as quietly as you can. The less effort you put in, the more they will sound like 'normal' notes. I practice using:
-3 -3' -3" -3''' +3 then
+3 -3''' -3" -3' -3 then
-2 -2' -2" +2
+2 -2" -2' -2
-1 -1' +1
+1 -1' -1
That way you can hear if the runs sound like scales (semi tone spacing), or if the bends aren't correct it sounds 'wrong'.
A cheap guitar tuner (I use a Korg CA30) might help too
Maka
Last Edited by MakaInOz on Jun 25, 2013 7:30 PM
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The Iceman
956 posts
Jun 26, 2013
5:00 AM
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There are specific target spots on the roof of your mouth. Think of them as if you drew a little "x" up there with a sharpie.
The spots are the ones that your tongue touches (or points towards) when you say "T" "D" "Rrr" "K" and "GUH".
If you say the above sounds over and over again, you'll get a sense of the exact spots and how they start just behind your upper front teeth and end up back towards where the throat begins. You'll also begin to feel how the tongue curve "slides" back and forth. It's similar to the feel your tongue has when you whistle a high note and slide it down to a low note.
Using this movement and inhaling gently, you will eventually find the "sweet spots" for all the bends .. i.e., where you need to move the least amount of tongue to get the most amount of bend control.
The bends begin near the "T", "D" area - for instance - the first 3 hole inhale bend. As the tongue arc moves back, the other bends are revealed.
One exercise is to gently make the 3 hole inhale with bends create that sound of a falling bomb (from the old movies)...smoothly dropping in pitch until you hit the "floor" with your tongue arcing towards the "Guh" area.
What's important to note about this approach is that now you finally have a quantified target spot for each bend and all the areas between them. "X" marks the spot on the roof of the mouth.
Total beginning students introduced to bending technique in this fashion will have all their bends controlled at pitch within a week or two.
Contrast this with how most learned (gee, just keep at it and eventually you'll get them). It took me years to bend accurately following this long and winding path up the mountain.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 26, 2013 5:04 AM
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FMWoodeye
691 posts
Jun 26, 2013
7:53 AM
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@The Iceman...."Total beginning students introduced to bending technique in this fashion will have all their bends controlled at pitch within a week or two."
That's really quite impressive. I took the long and winding path up the mountain. Too bad I didn't run into you and take the ski lift.
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mlefree
99 posts
Jun 29, 2013
10:59 AM
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Threads like these are the reason I participate in harmonica forums!
Building good tone on the lower bends, like developing a good vibrato, takes time and practice. In fact, there is truth in saying that developing both techniques is a never-ending journey. I'm still on that trek, but I have learned a couple of things along the way that have helped me.
One came from The Iceman hisse'f when I issued a similar lament here on MBH some time ago. His advice was to hit those bends with more authority. He was spot-on. I had been sort of timidly “fishing” around for the right pitch and my tone was suffering accordingly. When I began to hit the pitch with a stronger breath and a little articulation, even just a glottal stop, things began falling in place for me. As I say, I am still on the “Tone Trail,” but at least now my lower bends don't sound like a sick duck any more.
Another sage tip came from Paul Davies, a Denver harp Master and familiar face at SPAH meetings. He advises playing lots of melodies and to try playing familiar ones in different positions. Sometimes it is an “uncomfortable” position that teaches you the most. Taking the easy way out playing tunes in the same old position doesn't teach you anything new. Example: try playing the simple but classic blues, “Fright Train” starting on draw 4. You'll find that much of the melody resides in those pesky 3-draw bends. Play the song over and over until you “get” it. Another good example is playing “Goodnight Irene” starting on draw 1. You'll get great exercise on both 2-draw and 3-draw bends with an added twist, going from a bent note on one hole to a bent note on a different hole. This is the hurdle that made me work for months on “Walter's Boogie.”
“Bye, Bye, Blackbird” is another goodie. I'm sure y'all can think of others. I'd appreciate knowing them.
Finally, you must venture outside your favorite key harps as well. When you get the bends down on a higher key, go one key lower and so on, and vice-versa.
It is a long, lonely trail to being a good diatonic harmonica player.
Hope this helps some,
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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rpavich
46 posts
Jun 29, 2013
11:51 AM
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Thanks for the guidance mlefree ...i appreciate it!
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SuperBee
1265 posts
Jun 29, 2013
5:46 PM
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I hear you Michelle.
Christelle Berthon put me on to "yesterday" starting from 2 draw. There is probably a YouTube of her playing it, I just play the plain melody. I still use it as a tune up for moving between 3* and 3**. The song also tunes in a mellow 2**
JimiLee suggested Duke Ellington's "satin doll" on a C harp, for all the 3rd chamber bends.
Just playing scales in different positions helps. Mixolydian in second pos, 1st and 3rd each present a little challenge, then playing arpeggios of the associated chords, major and 7ths. Basically, play stuff which helps you hear the relative pitches by placing them in context, play with enough focus and repetition to make progress, and for me at least, playing with a focus on being able to name the scale degrees and the chord tones helps me build my mental model of the instrument at the same time. But songs are fun and that's very important.
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JellyShakersTipJar
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Udderkuz03
16 posts
Jul 19, 2013
3:07 PM
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Try adding a little gain or a pedal with gain in it or overdrive with a little delay or reverb to give your sound or note "room" then the bending comes easier through some type of connection between sound coming out of amp and the harmonica...after you "learn" this go back to dry signal and see if it helped you perfect bending...
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Pistolcat
447 posts
Jul 20, 2013
6:38 AM
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That's a good advice udderkuz. A mic and amp can unmask bad tone and amplifies your mistakes and make them easier to spot. Gives away where your harps have gone flat, too. Beating octaves really sound (even more) crappy amplified.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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