At the risk of getting flamed, I have to admit I despair at the reactionary tone of this forum sometimes. It purports to be about 'Modern Blues Harmonica', but in fact most of the topics are basically related to how to sound like a few famous dead guys: what techniques they used, what gear they used etc etc etc
Sure it's great to get inspiration from the past (I've borrowed/copied/stolen plenty myself!), but it's 2013 fellahs! Shouldn't there also be some enthusiasm here about creating something really new, of OUR time?
This apathy was highlighted when I posted a link to a piece of brilliant modern harmonica playing, by Mike Caldwell, playing stuff that has never been heard on the 10 hole harp before. There was not a single comment.
By contrast there was a lot of excitement in a recent thread about some blues player throwing in a single overblow at 0:43 seconds into his solo. Wow! Then Mike Caldwell plays his '30-Reed Rag' bursting with juicy, intelligent chromaticism and no one is bothered...
In the hope that more people may listen and think about it, I'm posting Mike's tune again with a question and a challenge: could this be played with overblows? It's the first track on this page:
Very nice playing indeed. So I presume Mike playing a SUB30 harmonica? As to whether or not it could be played with over blows. I have no idea. I'm not really an overblow player. I can play them but I choose not to use them in my music, as I prefer a more traditional blues sound generally speaking. I'll be interested to see if any of the "over blowers" can do it.
Of course I'm playing Devils Advocate right now, but is this tune really creating something new? Isn't it just "old" music played on a new instrument? Is it of "OUR" time? Does make it modern blues (or in this case jazz) harmonica?
It's obvious that Mike Caldwell is an accomplished player and I'm going to seek out some more of his music. So for me if nothing else Brendan, you've brought a player to my attention that I hadn't heard of before. Which is always a good thing. Thank you for doing that Brendan.
Last Edited by Kingley on May 12, 2013 1:52 AM
I listened to Mike's piece, Brendan. Apologies for not commenting.
To be honest, I like it here, but I've often wondered if there is a diatonic site that catered more for progressive stuff.
I really like aspects of the playing of Alex Paclin, Boris, Bart, Christelle Brendan etc, as there's a tendency to attach a melody to the piece before deviating into soloing, which seems like a more musical approach.
Based Kingley's comment of 'I choose not to use them (overblows) in my music' should give a flavour of what people prefer here. I'm not flaming Kingley. Overblows are not in the slightest bit necessary in blues (6OB aside), but here is where I think the issue is: some people feel they're almost damaging to ones playing, much like the mentality that music readers aren't as spontaneous as non readers. That's fine. Different strokes and all that, but I think some stuff just goes completely over people's heads or doesn't fall into the mental image (Sonny Boy, Little Walter) of what a harmonica should sound like.
I'm really looking forward to my X Reed SUB 30. The Christelle vids were the clincher for me. She really sees it as a game changer.
I think you've laid down a challenge that overblowers won't be able to meet. The SUB 30 is a different instrument in a different class.
Only question I've got is what's going to happen with the PT method? Surely half valving is now obsolete?
Sorry. Mid morning Sunday ramblings....
Last Edited by Stevelegh on May 12, 2013 2:31 AM
Online forums (of all types) are ALWAYS filled with some incredible material, videos, etc that NEVER get commented on. It's the nature of the beast. Just because something doesn't get commented doesn't mean it's not appreciated. Conversely, a poster EXPECTING something to be commented just because they feel it should be is generally looked upon with disfavor by fellow online members.
Good post Stevelegh. For me it's a simple issue of I can't see a place for overblows to enhance the music that I wish to play. These days I play quite minimalist generally and don't feel that adding overblows into my music is either necessary, or would indeed add anything worthwhile. It'd be just adding them in for the sake of it. I'm not saying I'll never use them (which is one of the reasons I practice them), just simply that at this current time I don't feel the need for them.
Last Edited by Kingley on May 12, 2013 4:17 AM
Mike sounded amazingly good - for me it's not about who can do this or not on a certain harp... but rather are my ear muscles being caressed in a way that makes me go Ahhhhhhhhh, that feels good! It's wonderful to be "impressed", but that is not the end all be all for me personally as I listen to music...These players using the the sub 30 are astronomically talented and fun to listen to what they are doing with the instrument. But, if the 1/3 rule applies here- then in any given class or group of people, a third are going to love what we have to play – even before we play a note. Another third will be on the fence, and make up their minds as we progress through our tune/concert. The last third, we might as well forget about, because they aren't going to be interested in anything we play or do, no matter how important or compelling we think it is. So, if someone does take up your challenge, using over blows or not - I won't be looking for a note for note match up, but for a rendition that carries the players soul to places not reached by the other player/s :)
It appears to me that the divisiveness that Brendan alludes to revolves around approaching harmonica from two different directions...
1. Diatonic standard harmonica layout driving the note choices...i.e. famous dead guys and how they created music on the harmonica, or using the harmonica to sound "harmonicky".
2. Diatonic standard harmonica w/OB or a newly developed harmonica tuning offering up all the notes played by someone who plays the notes (no matter where they lay) from a non-harmonicky approach.
#2 is more of a modern approach, but doesn't always embrace blues nor playing the harmonica from a blues perspective, although there are a few that blend the two directions (Carlos DelJunco, for example). ---------- The Iceman
Just give me/us a 12 bar rockin blues number, yes your one of the experts and i appreciate this, but to me, you should perhaps create your own site for advanced playing, overblows and all the jazz positions become too hard for me/us/others, to focus on, kind like opera to pub rock. Well thats my opinion.:)....Carl A makes some sense.
ProgressiveDiatonicHarmonica.com is available. Heh.
I'd suggest an 'advanced' or 'non blues' section, but the problem when you start creating subsections, unless you know you have a serious demand that's damaging what's currently there, you end up diluting what you already have.
I'd love to see some market research into the harmonica. Numbers etc, then work out the number of players out there and the genres they gravitate to.
I'd say there are fewer than 1,000 competent overblow players out there, which is still huge business for the SUB 30 and X Reed, but I'd love to bring this instrument out of the kazoo section of the music store and get it some respect.
"I'd love to see some market research into the harmonica. Numbers etc, then work out the number of players out there and the genres they gravitate to"
Well would it surprise you to know that worldwide blues players are not the majority? It's only in the western world where blues might be the predominant genre for the harmonica. In Asia and the Orient where there is a huge following for the instrument, blues comes a ways down the list of genres. There is much more classical music played on harmonicas there than blues. They also play tremelo and chromatic harmonicas much more than the diatonic.
"I'd say there are fewer than 1,000 competent overblow players out there, which is still huge business for the SUB 30 and X Reed"
As far as I'm aware with SUB30 and the X Reed that you don't need to overblow to be able to play them. So I don't see what relevance the above statement has to those particular harmonicas.
Last Edited by Kingley on May 12, 2013 5:50 AM
Right, overblows are not possible on the SUB 30. For me, it's all about the note--and 6OB is certainly an important note in the blues. Also, the approach to the note is important, so the SUB 30 and other x-reed harps give you options. For anyone who doesn't know, Brendan brings a great deal to the table, and we are lucky to have him posting here. Oh, and the Caldwell piece was great, perhaps it sounded TOO good . . .
Brendan, You are a player who perhaps could play this on a 10 hole yet I don't see your attempt. It would be nicer to see you lead the pack instead of challenging it. I'd like to hear your version along with any tips you could offer on how to play it so those of us who aspire to OB's may be able to do it. It is a great tune for sure. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Brendan, you are on to something here. I think the sad truth is, while 30% of us, with hard work and a modest investment, can produce a credible imitation of some of the techniques of the great innovators who preceded us, only about .03% of us are going to come up with any great innovations.
Stand by though, he or she is out there, probably starving because their innovation has not yet been accepted as commercially viable.
On a happier note, unless I dreamed it last night, I believe yesterday I heard a Deak Harp sound track in a Dr. Pepper commercial.
Um, I think some of you are missing the point of this harp. It's not for overblow players! I don't think Brendan overblows, for his sound . . . And it's not tough to play, particularly as an x-harp--oops time for a disclaimer. I am the repair tech for Suzuki US, so if you buy an Ultrabend (I like that name better than SUB30) and somehow it is not up to snuff, I am the fellow who gets to make it better, as a warranty issue. OK, back to the fray . . . the technology behind the extra reeds enables you to blow bend on the bottom and draw bend on the top. So what would have been 6OB (let's use a C harp for our discussion, so the Bb) is available as draw bend 7. And you would create it the same way you draw bend hole three for the same note. I think Brendan's motivation for getting the harp into the hands of top players is to show how easy it is for them to adapt to the change in approach--even overblow players!
Apologies guys, correction on my last post. I appeared to suggest over blows were available on the SUB 30.
When I mentioned over blow players, I should have more correctly used 'chromatic playing on the diatonic'. If anyone can think of a way of saying that using less of a mouthful, it would be handy. Ha!
Here is a promo piece for the harp featuring Brendan doing his thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xja8V2bd0 I got to play his personal Ultrabend at SPAH, he really does know what he's doing. Oh, and valving is at the heart of this system, so that technology is not obsolete. Sometimes I put one or two valves on a harp, as that is all it needs--Bren's Power Chromatic is a great example, only one OB per octave, so I valve two holes--then the note is available either as a blow bend or an overblow.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 12, 2013 9:50 AM
I find the SUB30 a fascinating concept. I think being able to get the missing notes with conventional draw and blow bend techniques to be very appealing. But as a semi serious hobbyist,the price of admission is on the high side. Also there has been much discussion about OOTB SUB30 being less than optimal and requiring additional customizing.Those factors are what has kept me from buying one.
If I'm right on this Brendan, the tune is in in E using a SUB 30 in A 2nd position?
Just 4 bars in the point is very well made. Unless you're going to play an octave lower on the 3 hole draw bend instead of the 6 hole blow, you're going to sound about as soulful as playing a Stylophone.
I just picked up my Power Bender to look at it. There's probably more chance of nailing this with that, but for me, the issue is put to bed. The SUB 30 is going to create a whole new generation of players with the nuances and inflections of any other instrument.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on May 12, 2013 10:52 AM
Nice track. It doesn't sound modern until the change. One thing I've noticed about posts is people like videos a lot more than audio links. Also, the time of day and day of the week you post makes a big difference in how many responses you get, (at the slow times, one poster may go down and post on a bunch of things and totally flip the list, at higher volume times you actually are more likely to get someone interested in your particular topic before it drops off the front page) and that there is a small cadre of people who make it a point to comment on just about every post, and that once a comment goes off the front page it's usually gone. If a post drops off the front page it's done. (I usually suggest 1 bump.)
And a good headline makes a lot of difference.
I really like the harp playing after the change there.
edit: until about the 1:40 mark, I wasn't really interested in the piece. If I'd clicked on it and wasn't expecting something modern, I would have probably skipped to the next post by then, and if the next post had audio, I would have clicked it off. I really like it after the 1:40 mark. Also, people tend to post more on people when they are having back and forth conversations across multiple threads. The more topics you post on the more people will click your links. If someone only posts on microphones, or only posts on speakers, and they get a reputation for only posting that sort of stuff, people only click their links when they are looking for mic or speaker stuff. Sometimes I surf the site while listening to a TED talk in the background. On those days, I skip audio. Some people skip audio when they are at work or on less than idea speakers.
---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Last Edited by nacoran on May 12, 2013 10:52 AM
One day I'd like to get one of those but at the moment I feel I've made too much of an investment in,(A) My current batch of regular harps, and (B) Honing my skills with those harps. I don't think I'll be able to master a whole new range of breath patterns etc. yet. I've not long got to grips with the last lot.
One thing that concerns me though is that I maintain my own harps whenever I can and if one goes bad, it's not too much to replace it. I can't see me being able to do that with an X Reed SUB 30. It looks to me like the reeds will be worked harder with the use of valves etc. I'd be concerned with reedlife and future maintenance.
I'm sure my views will change in time but at the moment it's a bit pricey for me to entertain the idea. I think it would be like giving me the keys to a Bugatti Veiron. More power than I could handle :)
@ Nacoran and Grey Owl: you're right, it's all in the headline :-) Good to see Mike's cool composition stimulated some discussion, anyway.
On my tune in the video above: yes, it's played on an A SUB30 (in PowerBender tuning).
However, the track below is played on a X-Reed harp in standard Richter tuning in C. Apologies to those who've heard it before, but it seems quite a few haven't grasped what this new harp format is all about. This track should get the idea across better as it is more accessible than Mike's (simple chords, less chromatic):
Don't get me wrong: I love to hear a good overblower like Todd Parrott, Jason Ricci, Carlo DelJunco - and of course Howard Levy. Those guys are really getting the juice out of the overbends. But it seems for most it's an incredibly hard road to get to even 1/10th of that level. Plus the harps have to be so finely set up (often by top name customisers) to make 'em work well so overblows & overdraws can be made really expressive and not just thin unpleasant-sounding shrieks.
I think the new 30 reed format gives the average player faster and easier access to those extra chromatic notes that so far only overblows have really provided (PT Gazell is the exception that proves the rule). The 6 overblow becomes an easy 7 draw-bend, the 7 overdraw is an easy 8 draw-bend, and so on...
It's early days, less than a year since the release of the SUB30. Since I'm no longer a Suzuki employee I can be frank and say: great idea, pity about the execution. A lot of 'back and forth' went on behind the scenes before it was released, and my unhappiness with the decisions Suzuki took are a big part of why I left the company.
X-Reed.com is a new start-up devoted to the extra-reed format. We're beginning by customising SUB30s to show how good this harp can be when it is optimised via full-reed embossing, our exclusive OverValve plate and well-designed solid combs.
BUT the downside is that, with all the hand-work and extra parts our harps are expensive ($185-$450). Even at the top end with chromed brass comb that's about the same as a good Filisko or Joe Spires, but more than is ideal if you're trying to encourage people to try a whole new concept.
Those who have really love our harps (as you can see from the Feedback page on the x-reed website). But traction for the 30 reed harp will only start to develop if the format can be made cheaper. I'm sure that will happen in the next few years and more and more players will adopt these harps for at least some of their playing. Since 18 reeds can be bent instead of 8 they are potentially the ultimate Blues machine, and I think players will start to work that out as time goes on. Little Walter would have grabbed one with both hands, I'm sure - he was a true explorer and innovator.
Last Edited by Brendan Power on May 12, 2013 1:05 PM
Try this with overblows? Well, it may be possible, but there is no way this could be played as well or as smoothly with overblows. Sure the notes are all there, but there's no way to express them all the same way as you can on the SUB-30.
Being friends with Mike, I heard the 30 Reed Rag as soon as he recorded it, and I thought it was awesome. My rule is to use the best harp for the job. There are certain expressions and bends on the SUB-30 that just can't be duplicated with overblows. The same is true with country tuning. You can't duplicate the expression you get on the 5 draw of a country tuned harp with the 5 overblow.
The only reason I haven't used a SUB-30 yet is simply because I've been too broke to buy one, but be assured that I will be using one soon, as there is a song I plan to record in the near future which can only be played with a country tuned valved harp or with a country tuned SUB-30.
Sorry I missed the original thread, but many things have kept me away from being online as much lately.
EDIT: There are also expressions and certain things you can do with overblows, that you can't do with valved harps or the SUB-30. So it's good to have as many kinds of harps and tunings in your case to fit the need for the song.
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on May 13, 2013 4:43 PM
The fluidity of how Mike gets from one note to another is not something achievable using overblows. The note sequences themselves are playable, but areboth easier and more flowing on the Sub 30.
Each tool presents unique opportunities. I think that the clip sequence nicely demonstrates what the Sub 30 has to offer. ---------- Winslow
Thanks, Stevelegh, for posting the video. It really clarifies how the OverValve plate works. One important thing to note is that the plate does not block off the responder reeds, an impression that's easy to form on casual reading. The video makes clear that the responder reeds remain available, while the audio demonstrates that they really do ameliorate the problem of the responder reeds sounding when not called for during draw chords - here the draw chords sound as intended. ---------- Winslow
Aha.. finally someone is frank to say that OOTB sub30's are less than encouraging to play. Brendan, you're the man! And why did all those haters hate me when I said the same thing about a year ago, after using/trying to improve a stock sub30 ?
I think the heading of this post is kinda needlessly provocative, but I get why Brendan chose it. He wonders why harp players in general often don't appreciate innovative sounding playing and are overly impressed by the recreation of blues standards and 'vintage' sounds. Not to put words in Brendan's mouth, but I think the frustration behind what he's saying is that most harp players are drawn to the instrument by how naturally it conforms to blues and are perfectly happy to live in and explore that sweet spot - there doesn't seem to be nearly as much interest in playing that doesn't conform to blues norms. I completely agree with Brendan's point, but I don't see why he contrasts this cut with overblow playing. For years, overblows have been as marginalized as altered tunings to a lot of blues harmonica purists. Personally, I think anyway you can make good music - standard harp, altered tunings, overblows, or standing on your head - is alright with me. I didn't used to feel like that, but Brendan is one of the guys who's playing convinced me I was wrong
To add to Roscos point about exploring the sweet spot of blues harp...That is certainly true and I'll add that it ultimately has to boil down to the [music] each individual LOVES to listen to. Some of us are country fanatics, some jazz fanatics , some rock fanatics, some blues fanatics, etc. etc. And again, it is the music we LOVE, that we cannot get enough of listening to...that will be the same harmonica music we are going to be drawn to...and it will be the music we love, that we will choose to spend our precious time with. So - I can feel your pain Brendan, thinking to yourself, WHY don't these blues fanatics embrace the AWESOME POWER that the SUB-30 affords them...Maybe the question should be - How can I put together a CD of some great down home blues that are played on the SUB-30...That should at the least get the attention of the blues fanatics and speak to them in a way they may give them that "light bulb" moment you so desperately desire! :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 14, 2013 5:44 PM
If a player wants the chromatic scale at their fingertips, why don't you just purchase a chromatic harp (ie:instead of a sub 30)????I am asking this question out of ignorance, not to start a dispute.
Many players prefer the size, feel, response, and sound of the diatonic to that of the chromatic.
Howard Levy, for instance, can play the chromatic harmonica with near-virtuosic proficiency - I've heard him do it. Yet he prefers to achieve complex chromatic music by coaxing bends and overblows out of diatonic harmonicas because he just loves the diatonic, while the chromatic leaves him cold.
Many players feel the same way. ---------- Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on May 14, 2013 6:48 PM
I know it's been posted here by Brendan earlier this month, but Christelle did a great 1st position blues on the SUB 30 that wouldn't be possible on a regular diatonic even with overblows.
You're right. It would be fantastic to actually have some A/B comparisons of phrases to demonstrate stuff that can be done. I'd like to see some 3rd position stuff and some 12th position.
@rosco: Yes, I admit it! But at least it's got us talking about an interesting subject :-)
I appreciate that many harp players are very comfortable just playing 12-bar blues, and why not? There is a whole world to explore in that grain of sand! As Rosco says, the great pioneers of blues harmonica discovered the traditional harp's sweet spots for blues, and made a whole new sound on an instrument the German designers had intended for oom-pah music.
I guess by 'sweet spots' we're mostly talking about the available bends and how they can be used in a blues context. My point is simply that (as with the advent of metal frames and modern strings in tennis), with 30 reeds the bendable sweet spot on the harp just got a lot bigger! 18 bends instead of 8, and still in normal Richter tuning. That's a lot of new soulfullness to explore - not just in a jazzy direction, but for gut-bucket blues as well.
Christelle's slow blues gives a taste of what's possible in 1st Position. 3rd and 12th are easy and soulful on the 30 reed too. Being able to bend the high draw notes really helps with them.
Note....I hate playing to backing tracks and I am not a blues player by trade. I haven't been engaged enough to make a vid with more first position riffs, although, IMO, that is the main benefit of the SUB. I could have easily played 90% of this song on a Special 20 without much gapping. That isn't the fault of the SUB or anything.
It is the same analogy as I am using chasing a very specific effect (see other thread). John Popper uses a $2,000 rack system to get a tone I can get 90% of using a Zoom G5 I paid $250 for and can use as a complete stand alone rig.
@Jim
I, as well as others, have been critical of the stock SUB30. It is awful compared to the level one X-Reed harp. AWFUL.
In order to make this something that can compete with diatonica or chromatic in general, you have to play to the masses and not a narrow niche. The market for jazzy diatonics that run over $200 is small. If it were an easy nut to crack, there would be a boatload of customizers making a good living off of tweaking harps. There aren't.
No flames from me per this - it is valid comment. As well, the thread arrangements are somewhat complicated on this forum because of the desire to make it "all in one" so nothing is missed easily. But missed is still easy as Brendan, nacoran, etc. points out. It would be nice to have alternate chromatic and other forums that are meshed with these.
It is likely time for the harp world to move on to more advanced instruments but the cost for the lower end players is a rather daunting issue. When you are not a great player, one does not even feel that they "deserve" an expensive harp let alone a hi-tech one. But if they were cheaper, certainly, that feeling would disappear somewhat for me.
Stevelegh - thanks for the repost of CB on the SUB30. Awesome performance of style and fluidity. No way it could sound like that if overblows used even if a great player were to attempt methinks. And even if it did approximate it, why spend that much effort when not necessary. Knowing how great of a player she is, I sometimes forget that pro players also utilize the best in tech advances as well.
The way to make the SUB most popular is to offer a harp that plays as well as, say, a Manji with the additional notes at a price point that is $100 or under in the US. ______
Currently, it is unadvised to buy a SUB30 when you can get a superior instrument from X-Reed for a few bucks more. I would still argue, though, that at $190ish (which is what I think I paid for mine), it doesn't play as well as a traditional Richter harp as a Special 20.
While I am sure the modified versions are amazing - and I've tried Brendan's harps which were beyond belief - you run into the exact same issues as other custom harps whether they be traditional, valved, or overblow harps.
Personally, I think the SUB concept is much better for blues then overbending. The added notes and their LAYOUT are superior in many ways. The most significant being the middle of the harp which opens a whole new world for blues. Most blues guys do not spend time in the top octave with what is there to begin with, but blow bend riffs transpose like butter to the middle of the harp. You can't do that OB'ing by transposing and THAT is where techniques become elusive (just overbending itself is not that difficult).
I would have a full set of X-Reed harps if they were economically viable for me, without a doubt - even the base model. The difficulty for me is I don't have time to customize a bunch of harps, nor hundreds to throw at custom ones - same issue as custom harps for a ton of players (and the base price for an entry level custom is well below even a stock SUB30).
Basically, for my playing which is largely rock, I use different positions in different keys and don't have to always overbend....I can single reed bend of overbend what I need to on the high end, and I don't play enough blues to feel like I am missing out on the SUB bends there.
HOWEVER, if I was playing more blues, I would be using SUB harps more, if not exclusively by some point, for sure.
Brendan, get some really good non-ob blues players to show off the SUB in a blues context...accessible traditional blues guys. Not overly progressive dudes. That is your best bet...well, and to ensure it plays just as well in Richter fashion as similarly priced customs. I am not saying that is reasonable to achieve or do, but it is what the market could support. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Basically, if it is cool for guys like Mitch Kashmar, Dennis Gruenling, etc., to use an X-Reed harp for traditional blues, they'll sell like hot cakes. Look at what those guys do for the gear market. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
I like the tune 30-reed Rag! I think it could work good on a normal diatonic in B, played in 12th position. But it would miss one note, the low Bb at 01:01. It would not work so smooth on a standard overblown A harp, played in 2nd position.
This tune is a perfect example of the possibilites for SUB30 and Mike is great composer in this genre. I first heard this tune some months ago and got inspired. Go Mike!
One thing I know about Mike Caldwell is he is an incredible chromatic player. I believe his ability to come up with this great tune is influenced by years of chromatic study.
I agree, Michael. He's also a piano player, and plays other instruments as well. He comes up with some great chord progressions too. Bottom line is that he's simply a talented musician.
Another worthwhile point about the Sub30 is that - largely through Brendan's efforts - it's turning into a vehicle for all sorts of customizations and accessories - combs, the OverValve plate, embossing, special tunings. This is in contrast to the XB-40, which, while for me a brilliant instrument, was pretty much an orphan in the world of harmonica.
Now if Suzuki would just do a better job on the basic instrument and drop the price to a reasonable level, this instrument could really take off. ---------- Winslow
OK, I've succumbed to the siren song. I'm sending my stock SUB30 to get X-Reedified. Results in several weeks . . . ---------- Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 01, 2013 8:44 AM
