S-harp
103 posts
May 03, 2013
6:54 AM
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So, I'm about to double the reed plates one of the the low harps I use the most, LowD.
Did a forum search and found, of course, interresting stuff. In one thread we had TNFrank going about ... and Buddha writing about a discussion he had with Howard Levy about double plates and if they make a difference or not. I still want to try one and see for myself.
Anyhow, my question is if anyone can help me with some knowhow?
My plan is to strip two old plates and screw them together with the harps plates ... and then just attach to the comb as usuall but with longer screws if needed. Flatsand maiting surfaces of course ...
Any thoughts and links would be much appreciated.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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barbequebob
2257 posts
May 03, 2013
7:27 AM
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Are you thinking about doubling the thickness of the reed plates? You'd better have EXCELLENT breath control because just as much as a tighter reed slot tolerance will make harmonicas play louder because more air gets directed to the reed and less air leaks from the tolerances, bear in mind that the reed plays mnore aggressively with a considerably wider swing, but it makes it much more prone to get blown out rapidly because the harder the breath force, the greater the stress is being placed on the reed and the average player plays FAR TOO HARD to ever use these and with a really hard player, you'd be lucky these harps last 2 weeks to month before they get blown out, and this is not an exaggeration. Joe Filisko made those for Howard and I got a chance to play one of these and trust me, as someone who keeps telling players about getting breath control, these are SUPER SENSITIVE as to how hard you play.
He no longer uses these because frankly, harps are being made far better than they were at the time Joe Filisko did these for him. Just tightening the slot tolerances can be more than enough. Thicker plates are fine on harps key of C and lower but they have zero advantage on harps D and higher.
My educated guess is that the two were carely welded together, and the idea was to be able to get the volume of someone who plays really hard while playing with an extremely light touch that Howard uses (if you're gonna play fast, complex phrases, it's an absolute necessity), so personally, I'd think long and hard before you do that.
BTW, the Super 64X chromatic has a double thick plate for the first two octaves only because thicker plates work better in the lower octaves and are essentially useless to do on the upper octaves.
Any reed plate thickness of past 1.05mm (the standard thickness is 0.90mm) in the hands of a really hard player will blow them out in a freanking hurry and this isn't BS at all. Why do you think so many players complain about the Hering Vintage Harps getting blown out so quickly? The reed plate thickness is 1.20mm, which is 30% thicker than standard and in the hands of a really hard player, they always get blown out fast, and doubling the thickness makes it even easier to blow out.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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florida-trader
294 posts
May 03, 2013
8:51 AM
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I have an interest in this subject as well. A while back I swapped some combs for some “double” reed plates with Mauro Pionzio of Plunz Special Harps http://www.plunzspecialharp.com/home_eng/index.php. I got a set of A and a set of G Marine Band 1896 plates. He makes “double” reed plates by attaching an after-market slotted plate to the stock Marine Band reed plate. I put the word DOUBLE in quotes because Mauro’s after-market plate is not quite as thick as a stock Marine Band plate. It is about 0.60mm as opposed to the stock thickness of 0.90mm. Consequently the combined thickness is not quite the same as what the OP would create by combining two stock reed plates.
With that said, I must tell you that these harps are easily two of my favorites. They are louder. The tone is fabulous and they are very responsive. The chords in particular sound much fuller. I have had these harps for about 7 or 8 months and play them pretty regularly. I haven’t had any issue with reeds breaking. I’m not sure where I would fall in the spectrum of hard vs. soft blowers. I don’t play professionally and I don’t often play amped where I might have a tendency to play harder to compete with other amped up musicians.
I have no first-hand knowledge of the history of double reed plate harps made by the master – Joe Filisko – so I don’t consider this information a rebuttal of anything Bob had to say. Let’s just say that our experience with harmonicas having thicker than standard reed plates is a little different.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on May 03, 2013 9:13 AM
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1847
703 posts
May 03, 2013
9:32 AM
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how about putting two combs on top of each other?
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tipjar
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Littoral
856 posts
May 03, 2013
10:37 AM
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I just got double reeds on a low Eflat GM, done by Matthew Smart. I got a Thunderbird low Eflat from him as well. He worked on the set-up on both harps but he wasn't real satisfied with the outcome on the GM, I think it plays great. It's essentially the same volume as the Thunderbird. A lot of variables between the 2 harps so you can take the comparison for it is worth.
He also resurrected my low F GM with a corian comb. Evidently accomplishing that wasn't much fun.
Last Edited by Littoral on May 03, 2013 10:46 AM
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smwoerner
175 posts
May 03, 2013
11:20 AM
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Littoral,
I was thinking about doing the double reed plates on a Special 20. I’m curious to know if the Eflat GM you got is still on the stock GM comb. Are the reed plates higher than the recessed area of the comb?
Are there any comfort issues?
Thanks!
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Littoral
857 posts
May 03, 2013
12:33 PM
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@smwoerner Hope this helps:
Last Edited by Littoral on May 03, 2013 1:57 PM
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S-harp
104 posts
May 03, 2013
12:40 PM
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Thanx for your input ...
@barbequebob ... you are right on the money. I recall you've stressed the importance of breath control in past topics, and I totally agree. I never blow out reeds, not even with thicker reed plates. I really like Hering Vintage ... too bad they're not worth optimizing. My harps get worn out, not blown out ... the reeds finally lose tone and sound dull ...
So why try the double plates? Well, I'd like to see if I can get a bit more acoustic volume on my Low D harp. I've already done slotsizing and reedwork and so on, and my low harps play well. But maybe it's not worth the bench work with double plates? Well, I just need to find out.
Welded plates you say? Interresting ...
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on May 04, 2013 6:56 AM
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S-harp
105 posts
May 03, 2013
1:03 PM
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@Littoral ... thnx for the picture.
@florida-trader ... thnx for your input ... your description is what I'm looking for soundwise ... i will use stock plates though, haven't got 0.6 plates.
My plan is to, after flat sanding the plates, screw the plates together and cut the screw ends off. No bolts/nuts ... will tap if needed. That leaves me with a double blowplate and a double draw plate, hopefully with airtight meeting surfaces.
The cutoff screws sticking out on the drawplate should easily be sanded flat ... maybe a bit more tricky on the blow plate. Haven't thought that one through yet ...
It's a MB by the way ...
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on May 03, 2013 1:21 PM
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smwoerner
176 posts
May 03, 2013
1:24 PM
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@Littoral, thanks for the photo. I'd seen the Pluntz plates before and they are a cool little product. I've got a mill tool coming in a few weeks and I was thinking about milling down an old set of plates similar to how a 64X is done. I'm sure the effort will be greater than the result but, sometimes we just have to do it for the proof.
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barbequebob
2259 posts
May 04, 2013
7:22 AM
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@S-harp --- The one I got to play was one made by Joe Filisko back in 1994, which was made from the stock of Marine Bands in Hohner's years of really horrible quality (1981-1995), and like Asian harps (with the exception of the Suzuki Manji, Fabulous, and Olive), they were using a considerably harder brass than in decades past, plus the slot tolerances were very wide and often inconsistent and the one Joe did had not only the double thick plate (1.80mm thick), but also tighter slot tolerances than even any of the new stock Hohners are now (and they're considerably tighter than years past).
Once Hohner retooled in 1995/96, started to gradually tighten slot tolerances and revert back to long slot reeds, at the advice of Filisko himself, Howard stopped using them because the newer stock, even not customized (tho it is still far better customized) made the necessity of the double thick plate largely useless for his playing style.
The reed material used on the Thunderbird is much more expensive just in the cost of materials alone, let alone the labor involved and for a lower pitched harp, these have made the need for double thick plates totally unnecessary.
The way harps are being made now, honestly, it just doesn't give you as much of an advantage as it did back in the 90's.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harpwrench
654 posts
May 04, 2013
9:22 AM
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Doubling reed plates is still a very effective mod on low keys including Thunderbirds. Around low Eb and lower is where I'd say it starts being especially worth the effort to do it. Regardless of slot tolerances and reed materials, you still have a lot more mass to get moving.
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Custom Harmonicas
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S-harp
106 posts
May 04, 2013
5:28 PM
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@barbequebob ... thnx for sharing. One of these days I'll try a T-bird, but my money's needed elsewere ... I hear you on doubleing the plates maybe not beeing worth it, but you know how it is ... have to try it and see if it gives that extra edge I'm looking for or not. Did a gig tonight and played one of my low Ds through a Gibson GA-90 ... wonderful ...Sounded like a smaller brass section ... But when doing acoustic work with the low D open playing through the PA I still miss something.
@harpwrench ... Thnx for you input
Yes, that's also my experiance with low harps, below low E something's missing ... for me when playing acoustic open style through the PA ... amped works better ...
I think I have figured out most of the bench work ... haven't found much info the net.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on May 04, 2013 5:33 PM
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The Iceman
850 posts
May 05, 2013
7:07 AM
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@harpwrench...
is there more mass to get moving?
My understanding/experience w/double reed plates is that the reed remains the same, but has to move through twice the thickness of plate.
Results in more volume, but the reed works a bit harder leading to shorter reed life span if forceful breath is used.
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The Iceman
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harpwrench
655 posts
May 05, 2013
8:13 AM
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Yes, lower keys have more weight on the tips.
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Custom Harmonicas
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Moon Cat
239 posts
May 05, 2013
8:32 AM
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I love you Joe!
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harpwrench
656 posts
May 05, 2013
12:58 PM
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xxxoooxxx
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Custom Harmonicas
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S-harp
193 posts
Jan 02, 2014
11:12 AM
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So ... I finally got around to double the reedplates.
Sorry about picture's size ...
Hohner MS, wood comb and Big River plates. I find the Big River plates is great for the lower MS- harps.
Took about an hour and a half to add the plates to an already great working Low D-harp. The process was pretty much straight forward.
Was it worth it?
I think so, because I got the effect I was looking for. More accoustic
volume with less air needed. I will double the reedplates on my other low harps too. (E and Eb). I will also try it with Low -F-F# and -G.
The chords are amazing. And the chugging!! The response improved, especially on the lower notes. The bends are there, but the bends were
there and working before too. Can't say yet if it made the bends easier.
Funny thing is that it seems that the gapping can be tighter on double plates then on single plates? I must check that again.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Jan 02, 2014 11:20 AM
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