AZBluesHarper
18 posts
Apr 19, 2013
10:42 AM
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Ok diatonic harp experts…this may be a really stupid question with a really easy answer, but I'll ask it anyway. We all know that the 2 draw is the same note as the 3 blow…but why? Has it always been manufactured with the two notes being the same? What’s peculiar about the 2 draw/3 blow that’s not present in the 4 draw/5 blow or 5 draw/6 blow? And why would you want the two notes the same? It seems to me as a waste of a potential note. I’m sure there are technical and musical answers for the questions…I’d love to hear both! Thanks so much…
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WinslowYerxa
280 posts
Apr 19, 2013
10:53 AM
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Draw 2 and Blow 3 are the same because that note is present in the two most important chords in the key of the harmonica.
And while 19th century instructional books show some variations (for instance, making Draw 2 an F instead of a G on a C harmonica), in time the present setup won out (it's the same setup, by the way, on diatonic button accordions).
So here' are the details of why.
In any key the two most important chords, at least for European music (but also for much music around the world) are the I (One) chord and the V (Five) chord. That is to say, the chords built on the first and fifth degrees of the scale.
In the key of C, The note C is the first degree of the scale, so C is the root note of the I chord. From the root you count up 1, 3, and 5 to get the notes C, E, and G. The fifth degree of the scale is G (C D E F G = 1 2 3 4 5), and you use that as the root to build the V chord: G B D.
Now the important thing to note that G has roles in both chords:
-- It's the root of the V chord (draw 2)
-- It's a member of the I chord (Blow 3)
So why does this double occurrence of G happen only in those two holes?
Well, you may also notice that in the first three holes, two notes are missing from the scale: F and A (the 4th and 6th degrees). This limits melody playing, but the first three holes were designed to play only accompanying chord to the melodies that you'd play from Hole 4 on up, and you need all the scale notes for melodies.
The idea was that you play the harmonica with a tongue block. With your tongue on the harp, you play melody notes out of the right corner of your mouth. When you want to add supporting chords, you lift your tongue off the harp to expose the holes to the left.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Apr 19, 2013 10:58 AM
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arzajac
1031 posts
Apr 19, 2013
10:54 AM
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(EDIT: Read the above post instead by Winslow Yerxa...)
The (Richter-tuned) harmonica is a chord instrument. The point of Richter tuning is to provide the I chord by blowing through holes 1 to 4 and the 5 chord by drawing on the same notes. In the middle of the harp, the major scale is provided without the need for any bends. In addition to doubling up on the 2 draw / 3 blow, at the top end of that octave, the blow-draw sequence is inverted to maintain the I chord by blowing any three consecutive holes all the way up the harp.
This is second-hand information since I have never spoken with Mr. Richter....
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Last Edited by arzajac on Apr 19, 2013 10:55 AM
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WinslowYerxa
281 posts
Apr 19, 2013
11:02 AM
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And Mr. Richter's name properly applies not to the note layout but the physical construction of the harp:
A row of single holes, each accessing two reedplates, one containing blow reeds and the other containing draw reeds, with only one reed per note.
Richter is someone who cannot be located in space or time; historical research has a series of frustrating and inconclusive clues. The fact that the identical note layout exists on diatonic accordions adds to the mystery.
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Winslow
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Grey Owl
84 posts
Apr 19, 2013
11:32 AM
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Now that's what I call an answer! Great stuff Winslow.
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AZBluesHarper
19 posts
Apr 19, 2013
11:37 AM
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My sentiments exactly, Grey Owl! Thanks Winslow!!
Just an observation..."there's some really, really smart people on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!"
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MP
2714 posts
Apr 19, 2013
11:40 AM
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now that Winslow sorted that one out, here's another question.
why are the same notes in the same octave doubled up side by side on chromatic harmonicas?
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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arzajac
1032 posts
Apr 19, 2013
1:27 PM
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Thanks Winslow.
Is there a better name for the tuning that we colloquially call Richter tuning? Or is it more accurate to call it "standard Richter" referring to the standard tuning of a Richter-type harmonica?
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WinslowYerxa
283 posts
Apr 19, 2013
1:34 PM
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OK, I kind of thought that question would be next (though I suspect that MP knows the answer).
The major scale has only 7 notes: A B C D E F G
You can add sharps or flats to make any other major scale, but it's still only 7 letter names.
The number 7 is an uneven number.
But when you have blow and draw notes together in a hole, you have even numbers: 2, 4, 6, 8, etc.
You can see that we have a recipe for complexity here when even and uneven fail to match.
For instance, on the diatonic harmonica above Hole 7.
The blow notes on a C harmonica are the 3 notes of a C chord: C, E, and G.
Everything else is a draw note: D, F, A, B.
So we have 3 blow notes against 4 draw notes.
At Hole 7 that mismatch hits the fan. Blow C is matched up with Draw B (instead of D) and the note moving from blow to draw goes down instead of up.
So the blow-draw action above Hole 6 produces a different result from what you get in Holes 4 thru 6.
Holes 4 thru 7 give you a complete scale, even with the inconsistent A-B-C breathing pattern.
Solo tuning, used on the chromatic, aims to keep the blow-draw pattern and the note pairings in each hole the same from octave to octave. To do this, you have two C notes:
== The C on the left pairs with B to complete the octave.
== The C on the right pairs with D to start the next octave the same as the others.
Some folks take that extra C on the left (one one paired with B) and tune it to another note, such as Bb (Bebop tuning, with Bill Barrett uses) or A (which I use, and I'm told that William Galison also uses).
Come to the Harmonica Collective next week and get three solid days and nights of answers like this.
http://harmonicacollective.com
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Winslow
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nacoran
6717 posts
Apr 19, 2013
2:51 PM
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This post didn't get any response, but it's a related question:
I couldn't find a topic on this but was curios if anyone knows the history behind the naming of positions 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Straight, Cross, Slant? Also; Do the other positions have names? Sorry if this is on forum already and I just missed it.
Thanks
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L. "Squeeky Ray" Robinson
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http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5359521.htm
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WinslowYerxa
285 posts
Apr 19, 2013
4:14 PM
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Straight and cross are the oldest names. Some folks have suggested that cross may have been borrowed from accordion players doing the same thing; for instance Cajun players will play a C box in G. But I have no confirmation.
The implications seem straightforward: If you're playing the harmonica in its designated key, you're playing it straight, but you can also play at cross purposes to the designated usage by turning it inside out and using the draw chord instead of the blow chord as the home base.
Slant as far as I know was made up by Jon Gindick, but I've never heard anyone use it but him. Prior to that, everyone that I know of called it third position.
All of the written materials I've seen and what I've heard from players don't bring up any other non-numerical names, even though in the 1920s players were using 4th, 5th, and even 12th position.
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Winslow
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Joel Hooks
1 post
Apr 20, 2013
5:11 AM
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Good morning all,
I had not brought it up because it seemed not keeping with the form, but this looks to be an appropriate time to post.
The term "Richter Harmonica" as has been pointed out refers to the system of blow/draw etc.
My questions is about the origins of the note arrangement-- from my deductions that is what catapulted the harmonica (of any variety) into popularity.
19th century catalogs and trade periodicals use "Richter" to refer specifically to models having the "modern" note arrangement cited above and not to the system of blowing and drawing.
There also seems to be a suspicious absence of references to harmonicas prior to 1876 or so. The harmonica dose not really make popular culture until J. K. Emmet begins to have his character "Fritz" play one in his act.
Self explanatory, but "Fritz" was a character in the same line of entertainment as minstrelsy. The minstrel show is mostly remembered today for the burnt cork. Mostly forgotten was the comedic depictions of all ethnicities and classes.
The Irish and Chinese in the early/mid part of the 19th century and the "Tyrolean" in the latter part. The Emmet's "Fritz" act was huge leaving us popular tunes as "Emmet's Lullaby" and "Sweet Violets."
J. K. Emmet's name was also used to sell harmonicas-- he is the "Emmet" that is on so many late 19th century harmonicas.
So when was the -chord/scale/scale sans seventh- note arrangement established? I suspect that it was in the 1870s but most harmonica historians are more concerned with the "system" and not the "layout" and I've not found a satisfying answer.
-Joel Hooks
Last Edited by Joel Hooks on Apr 20, 2013 5:25 AM
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Joel Hooks
2 posts
Apr 20, 2013
7:17 PM
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Man, you guys are spread all over the place on message boards. Why is there not a central complete harmonica forum?
I got the answer on the Elk River board.
I'd still like to do more work on the "Richter" note arrangement. I have an "German accordion" and while the notes found on the third button up are the same order--moistly-- as blow 4 up. The chords and bass are on the left hand side separate.
It is the cords on the lower part of the harmonica that make it what it is. And that arrangement of notes was genius.
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MP
2715 posts
Apr 21, 2013
2:22 PM
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thanks Winslow!
i kind of like the doubled up Cs because you can play them simultaneously for a very fat C note. of course you want them both exactly in tune to avoid a slight tremelo effect.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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Gnarly
570 posts
Apr 21, 2013
3:33 PM
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I don't! It's bebop tuning for me all the way.
Anyone who hasn't tried it should. It eliminates the reversal of breath and gives you a Bitchin' C7 chord!
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The Iceman
835 posts
Apr 21, 2013
5:43 PM
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Richter tuned harmonica....created to play the German "pop tunes" of the day.
These songs were based (as has been mentioned) on the I chord and the V chord...Think "Ach de Leiber Augustine".
Harmonica was created so that two people could play these top 40 hits together....one could play chords using the 1st four holes while the other could play the melody, which was based on a diatonic scale and usually resided within an octave plus 5 notes.
The alternative was to use (as has been mentioned above) tongue blocking in playing the harmonica as a solo instrument.
Once again, think popular music of the day and put yourself in that mindset. The harmonica layout will make perfect sense.
The miracle of this instrument was in the "missing notes" of the chromatic scale always existing, it taking another century or so to find them.
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The Iceman
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Joel Hooks
3 posts
Apr 21, 2013
6:56 PM
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Um... mostly not moistly, though if one is a wet player than that would be proper for the harmonica.
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