Hi there, A comment by Boris got me thinking. How fast is a top-level harmonica player relative to other instruments? It is a pretty complex thing once you think about it.
If you just blow or draw and move across a note or notes, or do a shake, it is probably as fast as a guitar strumming or piano or whatever.
If you have to blow in and out, can you reverse as fast as say, a guitar player or sax player can finger individual notes? If you just use your mouth, like Popper does sometimes, then maybe. I suspect it is harder to move your diaphragm and rib cage in and out that fast. I suspect a drummer has a harder time moving their whole arm too.
Can a tongue move as fast as you can pick a guitar or play a sax? One thing that can be done with fingers is sequential movements (like on a guitar fret you can be moving the next finger down while the previous note is sounding).
@walterharp, I appreciate your trying to move the discussion away from musical tribalism, "All those stupid X players are always doing Y", and towards a discussion of the differences between instruments.
If you want to play a fast major arpeggio, I don't think you can beat a harp. A major arpeggio on the harp is similar to a C major scale on the keyboard, or a chromatic scale on the guitar, all the notes are there just waiting for you to blow by. On a trombone or fret-less string instrument, you get a smooth glissando, which you can also do fairly easily on a harp. A smooth glissando on a keyed or valved instrument, like a sax or trumpet, is a quite advance technique (think of the opening clarinet line in Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue).
I don't understand why double or triple tonguing is any different on the harp than other wind instruments. I don't play sax, but the speed I can double or triple tongue is no different on the harp or trombone.
I was playing with some mandolin players the other day and was inspired to try to emulate the sound. I was able to get close by moving my tongue side to side to articulate the note. With practice I was able to approach the speed of the mandolin picking.
I think the key to any of this is "with practice". if you try to do something you are not well practiced at, it's going to suck, no matter what instrument you are using. An important thing to remember is, the audience does not care how hard it is, just how it sounds.
STME58 On trombone and trumpet doudble tonguing is easy. But not on sax and clarinet. They have mouthpieces too deep in a mouth. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Boris, sometimes your statements about other instruments shows your non-acquaintance with the subject. In particular, modern sax amboshur is quite edged(about 2-3 mm) and I doubt that harp can come even close to the sax play speed. Sorry, but that's true. Even pros could find himself embraced by popular clishe. So could please not share your knowledge if you not completely confident that it confirmed.
As far as tonguing, I can easily triple-tongue on the harp. It sounds difficult but seems easy for me as a classically trainied trombone player who has dabbled in the other brass as well. The clarinet solo at the opening of Rhapsody in Blue features a "squeal", which is an advanced technique on a keyed instrument but easy on a valved instrument (trumpet, cornet, baritone, tuba) as one simply needs to depress all three valves halfway and run the tone up or down. As far as single-note speed, the harp is limited. If you check out the example above, you have a virtuoso harmonica player playing Flight of the Bumblebee at slower-than-normal tempo. This piece can be played at the correct tempo by a good high school clarinet player, for example. A trombonist with Benny Goodman's band (his name escapes me) used to play a version of it, but there are not many trombonists walking around that can do it.
dmitrysbor I know, but anyway double tonguing for clarinet and sax is advanced technique. The only thing I wish to say. It possible to play some things on harmonica faster than on any instrument. Not all things. In general harmonica has less speed possibilities than violin, most keyed wind instruments. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by boris_plotnikov on Apr 19, 2013 4:24 PM
Yes most wind instr. where fingers are involved can play faster.Every axe has its limitations,the harp sounds great slow,and when hitting that right note octave or otherwise turns the head of everybody in the room,cant get it from anything else.
@Lumpy....Urbie Green is the guy I'm thinking of. There's a video of him playing in front of a bunch of school kids, and they look bored as hell. That's the problem with bone. Other musicians like it (because it can give a smallish band a fatter sound) but the rank-and-file lay person is indifferent. If you were the best bone player in the world and played solo at a party, people might say it sounds "okay." If you're a guitar player and you know four chords, you're the life of the party and will probably get laid.
I am certainly not the best bone player in the world, but played for 25 years in local amateur big bands. :^) I used to have a CD of him playing Csardas
It seems that "Flight of the Bumblebee" with a Trombone is a bit hard to take seriously. This performance by Tommy Pederson would not have bored school kids, my kids liked it, but not because of the musicality. In watching this I saw a surprising similarity between musical and comedic timing, Pederson displays both here. Note the tempo difference FMWoodey mentioned between these and the Herzhaft versions.
This version has Christian Lindberg on Trombone but niether he nor his trombone are the but of the joke this time.
@STME58....re: Pedersen, wow. Re: Canadian Brass, wow, especially the euphonium player. Still, playing it on a slide instrument is the biggest challenge. The slide has to be in precisely the correct position for every note in order to achieve the correct intonation. Also each note needs to be tonqued on bone but not so on valved or keyed instuments. Still, I think it's easier to play on bone than harp.
Last Edited by FMWoodeye on Apr 21, 2013 10:51 AM
I agree it is much easier to play this on the trombone than the harp. On the trombone, once you get your embouchure registers and your slide positions down, you have the full chromatic scale at your command. I have been playing harp for five years and I still can not play a chromatic scale.
I have noticed that the harp gives me the freedom to tongue or not tongue that I don't have on the trombone. I can still glissando on the harp but up to a max of 3 half steps, and that only on hole 3 draw. The trombone can glissando 6 half steps down starting on F,D, Bb, and other notes if you have the embouchure for the higher registers, shorter glissandos are available on almost any note.
Chords on the harmonica are much easier than on the trombone. I can get some two note cords on the trombone by singing while playing, but it is seldom very pretty. This technique works on the harp too, Wade Schuman is quite good at it. This clip below shows this technique, some excellent fast tonguing work, including flutter tonguing, and a great example of how to work with other instrumentalists.
Actually, you can play a three-note chord on bone. If you play a higher note and simultaneously sing a lower note, a note can be synthesized in the middle, giving you a bone triad. It's in "The Book." I can do it, but it's not a pleasing sound. It's probably best done behind closed doors to impress other bone players.
I usually get an odd sounding beat frequency rather than a synthesized third.
A while ago my son's wind ensemble conductor put on a good demonstration of the synthesized third. He assigned the root to half of the players and the fifth to the other half. When they all pulled their notes into tune, the third magically appeared even though no one was playing it. A great lesson in the power of good intonation. I don't know whether this effect if physical or psychological but it is cool when you get it.
I would like to have seen/heard that. BUT...if it were a cool sound on a solo bone, I think we would have seen more of it. More? Actually, I'm the only one I've heard do it.
I first heard the technique at a brass conservatory taught by my high school band director. He could get a pretty good chord on his euphonium.
I heard it once in a performance of "Concerto for Trombone and Two Loudspeakers", a very avante garde piece making use of a looper, which was uncommon in the late 70's.
It is much easier to blend vocals on the harp then on the trombone. Only on blow notes though, draw vocals are really tough!
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 21, 2013 8:48 PM
