Rick Davis
1352 posts
Feb 26, 2013
6:53 PM
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Bruce asked me to run this by you guys to see if there was any level of interest. He’s gearing up to produce an all-new small harp amp.
-It will be in a narrow panel tweed Princeton cab (1955-1960 style, bigger than a Champ but smaller than a Deluxe), with a single 10-inch speaker. The speaker will be an Eminence Lil’ Buddy.
-It will have two 6V6 power tubes in push-pull configuration, with a solid state rectifier and big iron in transformers. It will also have a filter choke. It will produce about 15 watts.
-The one-knob tone control will be modeled on the Masco ME-18 circuit; it won’t just cut the highs. The amp will include a line out.
-The price target is under $1000. I’m guessing the weight would be about 20 lbs.
Amps with two 6V6 power tubes are among my favorites for harp tone. Early Gibson amps used that configuration, as did the Fender Deluxe and others. It gives a classic tone.
From what I know of the design elements (and Bruce’s other amps) I’d predict the amp will have a big warm tone with some moderate crunch.
What do you think? Does this sound like something you might want to look into? I'd like to hear your opinions and I'll pass them along.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 01, 2013 10:53 AM
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rbeetsme
1117 posts
Feb 26, 2013
7:38 PM
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I have too much invested in other amps, but it sounds like a good idea. Building new harp amps seems like a crap shoot to me. There is no logic to it. Blues players are a funny bunch. A purpose built, dependable new amp that has the tone we want should be an easy sell, but we'll complain about the price and then go out and buy a vintage amp and spend more than it's worth to make it suitable for harp and hope it'll get us through a few years of gigging. Or worse, we'll buy some guitar amp totally unsuitable for harp, because we got a good deal on it, and spend several years and way too much time, money and energy experimenting with modification that never really get us where the new one would. So, yes, sounds good, but will it sell? Who knows?
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FMWoodeye
578 posts
Feb 26, 2013
9:23 PM
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So it would compete with the Fender Princeton Reverb RI
at the same price but with no following at this point.
It seems like a tough niche to fill. Speaking as a player with little knowledge of amps and depending on the consensus of opinions, I would have to go with the known quantity.
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Littoral
795 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:09 AM
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VERY well conceived: "It will have two 6V6 power tubes in push-pull configuration, with a solid state rectifier and big iron in transformers. It will also have a filter choke. It will produce about 15 watts".
And the line out. I'd jones for it. One more to fuss about.
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rbeetsme
1118 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:39 AM
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Are mission amps hand built or printed circuit from China?
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Willspear
304 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:53 AM
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They are built by Bruce Collins in Colorado
Or in the case of 5e3s he sells kit amps to people or builds em himself.
Last Edited by Willspear on Feb 27, 2013 5:55 AM
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6SN7
279 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:00 AM
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@ FM Wood-I : Reading up about the Princeton RI, it appears you are comparing 2 different amps. The RI has 2 tone controls, reverb and vibrato while the new Collins will have T/V dials only. Comparing to the tweed princeton might be better, but that model had an 8" speaker and a different tube configuration.
I am currently looking for a small practice amp that can be use for small gigs and is easily transportable, ideally as a carry on luggage on an airplane. I like the 10"speaker, T/V controls, the Masco design and 2 6V6 tubes. What would seal the deal for me is if it was package in a cabinet the size of a Champ or Kalamazoo or Gibson 5A.
The cabinet would be approximately 18 x 16x 8?
Its a lot of money, but I would rather that than screwing around with the issues of an old amp. I understand completely the work, value behind the price. Good luck, sounds like a nice amp.
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Willspear
306 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:06 AM
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The thing that made the tweed princeton so much bigger sounding than the champ with the same speaker size is that cabinet being a little bigger.
I blew harp through a tweed princeton a few times and it was a very good harp amp. Much nicer than the champ for similar money to one. When talking about real vintage tweed fenders.
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6SN7
280 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:27 AM
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@ Willspear.
You make an excellent point regarding the cabinet size. It really does enhance amp performance beyond just holding the components in place.
Whats the push/pull thingy and filter choke? I assume the solid state recifyier is a copper cap?
Yeah Bruce, I'm interested!
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Feb 27, 2013 6:46 AM
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Willspear
307 posts
Feb 27, 2013
7:00 AM
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I think cabinet size is the big failing point of both the pro jr and the blues jr for the sound they are going for. There are other short comings but for both of those amps the worst issue for guitar or harp is just how small they sound.
A champ in a tiny cab is expected given what it was. It records and Mics up well.
A princeton reverb could easily fit in a smaller cabinet but putting a 10 in a cab you can realistically have a 12 in is a big part of its sound
I was checking out this wicked cool sano a few days ago that was maybe twin sized but had a 15 and 2x8 really had a magnatone thing going on tonally. Had reverb which was broken and some horrid hum and the price was too high considering it needed decent amount of work and cosmetically it was shot.
Last Edited by Willspear on Feb 27, 2013 7:03 AM
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5F6H
1554 posts
Feb 27, 2013
7:01 AM
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"Push-pull" means it's like a tolex Princeton, HG DT or Tweed Deluxe as far as output section goes. Each of the 2 tubes (one at each end of the OT winding) does half the work, more headroom and more power than 2 6V6s in "single-ended" configuration (like a champ with 2 power tubes, both at only one end of the OT winding).
Rectifier may simply be diodes, they work fine on the HG DT and with the filter choke (drops voltage, maybe adds sag if before the power tubes), especially if the amp is cathode biased, they are unlikely to have negative impact on tone.
Sounds like a nice, compact, giggable package concept.
@FM Woodeye, price maybe comparable to the PRRI, but build quality from Mission will be streets ahead and an amp of this kind, handmade should really cost more than $1000.00.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
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Rick Davis
1355 posts
Feb 27, 2013
7:27 AM
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I have been wanting a 2x6V6 harp amp since I sold my 1947 Gibson BR-6 a few years ago. I don't know what I was thinking.
Mark, yes, it is cathode biased. There are some really interesting design concepts here. You should chat with Bruce about it.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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dougharps
350 posts
Feb 27, 2013
8:10 AM
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This sounds like the ideal harp amp short of hauling a Bassman. Push-Pull 6V6s sound great! It seems like a cross between the tweed Princeton and a Gibson Explorer, with a solid state rectifier instead of a 5Y3, so more punch. Bigger iron than the Gibson, different tone circuit. Presumably it is not a circuit board amp.
I currently have my '61 Gibson Explorer set up with Lil' Buddy, and it is my favorite amp. The Lil' Buddy tamed the trebly tone of the Gibson.
I think this new amp would fit a niche for reasonably loud but not over-the-top volume, suitable for an amplified band in small to smaller medium sized clubs without needing to go to the PA. The line out means you could maintain reasonable stage volume and use the PA for larger venues.
If I didn't have the Explorer and needed a modern amp, this sounds like the one.
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Doug S.
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shbamac
247 posts
Feb 27, 2013
8:32 AM
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Sounds like a good idea to me. As a current owner of one of his amps I am sure this or something along the presented idea would be a good addition. I have always preferred all octal amps and would be more interested in something along those lines. But I think I am in the minority.
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bigd
432 posts
Feb 27, 2013
8:41 AM
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I once had an amp that "sounds" similar in it's configuration (it had a 10'' speaker) created by Bruce and sold by Steve Warner of (now defunct I think) "Thunderharp Mikes". It was a really really terrific amp: One of my favorites out of all I have tried. I mistakenly sold it to finance another larger amp. I do not remember the "amp ingredients" but if it's comparable it will smoke!!
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Rick Davis
1356 posts
Feb 27, 2013
9:00 AM
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Doug, all of Bruce's amps (Mission Amps) are hand wired point-to-point on an eyelet board.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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dougharps
352 posts
Feb 27, 2013
9:36 AM
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I thought so... thanks for confirming.
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Doug S.
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Littoral
796 posts
Feb 27, 2013
9:55 AM
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I lust but maybe getting the 2-6V6 I have up and running is a more practical plan. 1960 Gibson Lancer
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Rick Davis
1357 posts
Feb 27, 2013
10:19 AM
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Littoral, those old Gibson Lancers are great sounding amps for harp.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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MJ
579 posts
Feb 27, 2013
11:22 AM
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I have an amp somewhat like the one Bruce is planning. It is a modified (many minor tweaks) 5F1 circuit with 2x 6V6 wired in series. It has a Hammond oversize Ot. I get about 12 watts. It is in a cab with a 10" Weber 10F 125O 30oz speaker. I use it for small and medium gigs. It can easily hang with drums that are not played too hard. It is a favorite of mine. I use it and the 32-20 3x10 for %80 my gigs. This amp from Bruce sounds like a real deal. His work is top drawer.
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bloozefish
82 posts
Feb 27, 2013
12:45 PM
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How is this much different than a HarpGear Double Trouble?
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HawkeyeKane
1513 posts
Feb 27, 2013
3:58 PM
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Might I make one suggestion to Bruce that you can pass along Rick?
Make it biased so that it'll accept 6L6's and EL34's without a re-bias job. With the transformers you're describing, it seems to me that the amp could definitely handle it. That oughta give the amp some different tonality options. Especially if EL34's can be used to get some good dirty distortion going.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
1359 posts
Feb 27, 2013
4:27 PM
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Tim, it will be cathode biased, aka "self biasing."
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
1360 posts
Feb 27, 2013
4:46 PM
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Bloozefish- There will be several differences from the HG DT. Foremost, the Mission amp will be cathode biased for a saggier tone, like a tweed Deluxe. The DT is fixed bias, like a tolex Deluxe. Fixed bias amps usually sound a little stiffer than cathode biased amps. One is not better than the other, just different.
That plus the different speakers and enclosures should make them sound very different from each other. The 10-inch Eminence Lil' Buddy speaker is very efficient at 99.1 db @ 1 watt / 1 meter. That equals a lot of volume per watt. I've used this speaker a lot in various amps and I like it. I expect this new amp to honk.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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MJ
580 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:38 PM
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Hawkeye, To be able to use el84 power tube would require a dedicated socket for the tube. Tube adapters don't work well. I think you will get plenty of dirt with a 6V6 or 6L6.
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HawkeyeKane
1515 posts
Feb 27, 2013
5:56 PM
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@MJ
I said EL34, not EL84. EL34 is an octal tube.
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Hawkeye Kane
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MJ
581 posts
Feb 27, 2013
6:33 PM
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My misunderstanding Hawkeye. If you want to add an EL 34 you might have to ask Bruce if maybe there doesn't have to be some resistor tweaking to accommodate that. :)
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HawkeyeKane
1517 posts
Feb 28, 2013
8:56 AM
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Rick, do you think Bruce will probably preamp it with mini-novals like his other amps? It might be a cool idea to try one with octal preamps like 6SL7's or 6SQ7's.
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Hawkeye Kane
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blueswannabe
178 posts
Feb 28, 2013
9:31 AM
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I just ordered the mission 32-20. Hope I made the right call based upon this new offering.
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bloozefish
83 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:01 AM
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Rick, thanks much for the explanation. Sounds like it will be a great little amp.
james
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MJ
583 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:26 AM
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blueswannabe You will not regret buying the 32-20. I have had mine since last May, and love it more as time goes on.
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LittleBubba
284 posts
Feb 28, 2013
10:48 AM
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I'm with the guys who think bigger cabinets in small output/small speaker amps are the way to go for sound.
If it sounds good in a small cabinet, imo it'll sound better in a bigger enclosure.
My favorite 5-watt amp that I own is my Valve Special with an enclosure bigger than my 30-watt amp.
You give up the "champ-like" portability, but for $1000, I'll take the bigger ambience.
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Monk
3 posts
Mar 01, 2013
6:01 AM
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I ordered the 32-20 about a month ago. Can't wait til it comes in.
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Rick Davis
1367 posts
Mar 01, 2013
10:51 AM
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Tim, why use 6SL7's or 6SQ7?
You're certainly welcome to email Bruce and ask him. If you want an amp with those tubes in the preamp section I'm sure that can be accommodated. I am not sure they would sound better than a miniature 9-pin dual triode tube such as a 12AX7 or 5751. BTW, a 12AX7 tube sounds great in a harp amp that is designed for it. It may be the first thing that comes out when we convert guitar amps, but it is a nice tube in the right context.
When the Mission 32-20 was designed and developed there were all kinds of tube combinations tried and discarded. The only determinant was tone. The final design is what sounded best. I'm sure it will be the same with the new smaller amp.
This new amp will probably revive a name Bruce used on a previous line of small amps: Soul Kicker. But that is not certain yet.
blueswannabe - The two amps are very different. The 32-20 is muscular tone monster suitable for all but the most raucous blues jams and bar gigs. It is powered by two 6L6 tubes that have a distinctive punchy tone. You are gonna freaking love it. I've gigged mine more than a hundred times.
The new amp is designed to fill a different niche. Nobody has heard it yet, but I think it will have a more vintage tone... a touch crunchier and saggier. The two 6V6 power tubes and cathode bias design should make it real ear candy, like 50's Gibson amps. But it will be a bit less powerful and less versatile than the bigger Mission 32-20.
I'll be posting videos for your comments and ideas as the project moves along, but I don't expect Bruce to have a working prototype for several weeks.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 01, 2013 10:58 AM
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Willspear
312 posts
Mar 01, 2013
11:43 AM
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The trouble with using the majority of octal pream tubes in combos is microphonics
6sl7s are notoriously touchy. I buy them in big lots of tubes just to sift through them because they are all generally a little microphonic but I'd wager a good third of them are microphonic to the point of horrid oscillation in combos
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HawkeyeKane
1520 posts
Mar 01, 2013
12:05 PM
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@Rick
I was just curious. I had the opportunity to play through a 1952 Oahu Tonemaster that used a pair of 6SL7's. It had some tone that was really nice and mellow, but at the same time just dark enough to make my eardrums tingle. I know that a lot of the old Valcos and early Fenders used these. I just didn't know if it was in the cards with Bruce.
I wrote him about it. He said it was doable if requested, but since there's no current producer of those tubes outside of the lackluster Russian makers or EH, it wasn't a really profitable venture on his side if he had to look for good NOS tubes.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
1370 posts
Mar 01, 2013
12:16 PM
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Tim, makes sense to me.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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HawkeyeKane
1521 posts
Mar 01, 2013
12:36 PM
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Yeah, me too. Still...good to know that it IS an option if someone requests it.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
1372 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:13 PM
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Bruce is custom amp builder. ANYTHING is an option, for a price. But settling on good components in a readily available supply chain is part of creating a quality product.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
1373 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:21 PM
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Here is a question for you guys:
Would you prefer the smaller tweed Princeton cab or the larger 5E3 Deluxe cab? Everything else would be as I described above; still a 10-inch speaker. The cab can't be an option at time of sale because it costs a lot of money to invest in the production of the chassis, which is different for each cab.
So, would you prefer the Deluxe cab or the Princeton? Both would be narrow panel tweed, good quality, sourced from Mojotone or similar.
BTW, I like the idea of the smaller Princeton cab.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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MJ
584 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:29 PM
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I would definitely opt for the deluxe cab. I think it would give a better, fuller sound. I have a 5F1 with 2 speakers in a Deluxe size cab, and it is nice.
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HawkeyeKane
1522 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:30 PM
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I agree Rick. A Princeton cab sounds good and more compact.
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Hawkeye Kane
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shbamac
250 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:48 PM
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No problems here with any of the Sovtek octals. Been very happy with them.
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Rick Davis
1374 posts
Mar 01, 2013
2:54 PM
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EH and Sovtek tubes are made in the same Russian factories - New Sensor - and are substantially the same. Bruce apparently prefers other tubes in his amps, as is his perfect right.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 01, 2013 3:00 PM
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sonvolt13
132 posts
Mar 02, 2013
8:12 AM
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If he can keep it to 20lbs and price it $150 below the double trouble he's got something.
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Rick Davis
1376 posts
Mar 02, 2013
11:59 AM
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Price target now is under $900.
The ~20 lbs figure was my guess. It depends on the transformers. The ceramic Eminence Lil' Buddy speaker weighs 6.3 lbs. The smaller cab will save a lot of weight.
My 5E3-sized Mission Chicago 32-20 amp weighs in at 34 lbs.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Mar 02, 2013 12:24 PM
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6SN7
282 posts
Mar 02, 2013
2:28 PM
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Princeton cabinet is my choice.
I've been wondering why Bruce would go with a 10" rather than an 8" speaker.
I figure the 8 in the larger cabinet would resonate better than a 10.
Here's an interesting thread on the subject.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-central-station/107958-tweed-princeton-speaker-question-1x8-vs-1x10.html
I'd be interested in anyone take on this. thanks.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Mar 02, 2013 2:43 PM
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5F6H
1572 posts
Mar 02, 2013
4:19 PM
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A 10" to 8" converter ring is easily sourced for anyone who would like to try an 8", but a 10" will normally project better...I'd also assume as the speaker model (not just the size) has already been determined that Bruce has good reason, tonally, for doing so (this would be my principal driver in the decision). Lastly, to keep prices competetive, a "5F2-A" cab comes default with a 10" speaker cut out. It will be easy enough to offer 8" or 12" options, but if it were me, these would require a slight upcharge.
Although a "tweed Princeton cab" is mentioned, we are looking at a concept that extends beyond recording/practice and is into small club gigging duty & 3-4 times the power of a tweed Princeton.
That's just my take on it.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
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Rick Davis
1379 posts
Mar 02, 2013
4:33 PM
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6SN7, that was a VERY interesting thread! Thanks for posting the link.
I think the consensus was what the guy was hearing had less to do with the size of the speaker than with other factors, such as the room, the amp circuit, even the freaking humidity! He'd have to compare the two side by side in real time to know for sure, and then he'd have to swap speakers in each cab. Yikes! I think he drew the wrong (but easy) conclusion.
Here is my take: There is a reason tweeters are small and woofers are big. Bigger speakers produce more low frequency energy. I suppose you can make a smaller speaker sound bigger than a larger one by tweaking the enclosure and baffle and EQ, but why?
I am also not sure a speaker will always "resonate better" in a slightly larger cab. There will be a different standing wave in each cab which may or may not work well with the natural resonance of the speaker itself. Ya just gotta try lots of speakers and see what works.
I've used the 10-inch Lil' Buddy speaker in a lot of different cabs, from the big Bassman to the little VHT Special 6 and Fender Champ. It has sounded really good in all the boxes. Bruce has a reasonable confidence it will sound really good in this new amp. If it doesn't there are lots of other good options.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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tmf714
1528 posts
Mar 02, 2013
4:41 PM
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"a "5F2-A" cab comes default with a 10" speaker cut out"
If you are speaking of the Narrow Panel Tweed Princeton,it comes with an 8" speaker cutout-at least from Mojotone it does-as well as Fender when it was produced from 1955-1961.
The Brown 6G2 came with a 10" speaker as well as the AA964 Blackface and AB1270 SIlverface models.
A 5E11 or 5F11 Narrow panel Tweed Vibrolux would come stock with a 10" cutout as well-from Mojotone and the Fender factory.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 02, 2013 4:54 PM
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