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Paul Butterfield
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Warbleman
Guest
Apr 03, 2008
7:31 PM
Did Paul Butterfield play the harp upside down? There is a video on youtube of him playing The Thrill is Gone and it looks like the harp is reversed.
Oxharp
6 posts
Apr 04, 2008
5:30 AM
Looks like it to me, posibly a D harp in 2nd position though there are a few comments about that one. Adam is the man for this I think!!

Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2008 5:31 AM
OEuropean
2 posts
Apr 04, 2008
7:11 AM
Indeed, both Paul Butterfield and Sonny Terry played the harp upside down!
Preston
8 posts
Apr 04, 2008
11:16 AM
I had thought the same thing watching the Butterfield "driftin" youtube. Good to know for sure. There is a video of Lee Sankey on Youtube, and I think he plays it upside down too. Not for sure though.

Hendrix played the guitar left handed because he WAS left handed. What would make these guys flip a harp upside down?
ChipperHarp
6 posts
Apr 04, 2008
12:16 PM
Well, Sonny Terry was blind and didn't know any better. Forgot why Butterfield did.
Chipper
bubba
1 post
Apr 05, 2008
6:42 AM
Could have been a number of things. I am learning upside down because of a surgery on one side of my lower lip, which left some scar tissue. Upside down its a whole lot easier for me to control bends and such; the position of the harp changes and the scar tissue is almost completely out of the picture.

Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2008 6:45 AM
harpmonkey
2 posts
Apr 05, 2008
7:03 PM
It's relative.

If you pick up and start plying the harp in one orientation, and learn, then it is moot.

Unlike guitar where the orientation and the hand/brain co-ordination can be a factor, the harp is not as rigid.

I know that there are some discussions about the air stream and how it is affected by the harp being held one way or the other, but I don't know how much.

I have tried to play "upside down" to see, but it is like trying to cut the hair on the back of your head with scissors while looking in the mirror. LOL
shaneboylan
7 posts
Apr 07, 2008
7:01 AM
In Butterfield's case - he played the harp the other way around because he was left handed.

On the topic of the "Thrill is Gone" video (which is amazing) - there's a lot of argument in the comments section over what key it's in. I'm almost positive that it's D harp, 2nd postiion - and Butterfield's lip pursing really tight on the low end of the harp to make the notes really flat.
ChipperHarp
9 posts
Apr 07, 2008
2:10 PM
RE Butterfield video. In my past band, we played "Thrill is Gone" and I believe I used an E harp as we played the song in B.
Chipper
Preston
10 posts
Apr 08, 2008
12:23 PM
I guess I don't understand why being left handed would lead to flipping the harp upside down. Left handed people don't hold books upside down.

I'm not trying to say your wrong, Shane, you may very well be right. I'm just saying flipping a harp upside down because your left handed doesn't make any sense to me, personally.

I am right handed, and I actually prefer to hold the harp with both hands, even when I'm not playing with a mic. The only time I cup is when I want to do really deep wah-wahs. When I first started learning to play, I even held the harp with my right hand because I listened to alot of John Gindick CD's in my truck, and I usually drive with my left.

Butterfield definetely made it sound awesome no matter how he held it. Any lefthanders out there with an opinion?

Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 12:25 PM
Blind Melon
2 posts
Apr 11, 2008
6:38 AM
I am a true "lefty" that has been playing harp for a couple of years. I have always played the traditional way with the numbers up. I hold the harp (and mic) in my left hand and use my right hand over both with my right thumb over the holes on the high end of the harp. This seems to be the most natural way for me.

I will sometimes pratice while driving in the car and have learned to hold the harp with either hand.

I noticed a while back that Mr. Gussow wears his watch on his right hand. Could it be that he is also of the left hand persuasion?

Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2008 6:45 AM
charlyharp
7 posts
Apr 15, 2008
2:47 PM
Paul butterfield is playing a D harp on that the thrill is gone.

Charlyharp
London.uk
oldwailer
30 posts
Apr 24, 2008
7:06 PM
Reminds me of a time in the late 60's when I went to see Elizabeth Cotton--she finger picked the guitar in left-handed position--but kept the strings in the regular way--so she was playing the high strings with her thumb. As a fledgling finger picker, I was there to experiment with substances and to learn something about playing guitar. I flipped my viewpoint upside down and managed to learn "Glory, Glory." Then next day I went to a workshop with Ms. Cotton and she was amazed that anybody had learned to play a tune from her. I think it was more the substances than my talent--but I didn't tell her that. Watching Sonny Terry play gives me that same feeling of being disoriented and upside down and a little Jewish--reading from right to left.
jpmcbride
42 posts
Mar 30, 2014
4:01 PM
@Bubba,

That's an interesting comment about bending with the harp upside down. Also, I remember when I was a beginner being told to bend by "changing the direction of the air downward". Of course, being an engineer, the first thing I did was test this and it didn't seem to be true. I can bend with the exact same embrasure with the harmonica in either orientation. What exactly is it about turning the harp upside down that seems to make a difference?

Just curious, not implying there's anything wrong with the way you're doing it. Whatever works!


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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
SuperBee
1859 posts
Mar 30, 2014
4:06 PM
I dunno if Bubba is still around, Jim. This thread would be close to the record for old thread revival...
slackwater
40 posts
Mar 30, 2014
4:32 PM
Well according to Buddy Guy, in his book 'When I left Home'(Pg. 128), "Little Walter turned his harmonica upside down and played it bottoms up."
I've seen pictures of him playing a chromatic the right way up so, I don't know, but that's what Mr.Guy said.
In that book he also gives an account of how Walter died, told to him by Junior Wells who swore he saw it happen. It wasn't an ice pick.
Slimharp
292 posts
Mar 30, 2014
7:24 PM
I agree with Harpmonkey. It's upside if you play the other way, or actually other end up. I saw Butterfield sveral times and dont know if he was left handed or not. Dont think that had anything to do with it. I do know he was a first chair Flautist in the Chicago Jr. Symphony Orchestra when he was younger. Maybe the orientation with the low notes to the left had something to do with it. I do know the Butterfield Blues Band Blew me out of the water in 1967 and 68 and I have been playing harp ever since. Paul was also greatly responsible for bringing blues to middle class America in that period, especially after Newport Folk Festival 1965. Chicago Blues before that time was pretty much a small musical sub-culture.

Last Edited by Slimharp on Mar 30, 2014 7:26 PM
jpmcbride
43 posts
Mar 30, 2014
8:13 PM
Oops, I didn't notice the date on Bubba's post.

In any case, its interesting that so many guys play the harp upside down. I suppose, except for the numbers stamped on the covers, which are useless anyway since you can't see them when playing, there really isn't a preferred direction for the harmonica. There is no particular reason to orient the low notes to the left, other than convention.

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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
Mighty Slim
1 post
Apr 01, 2014
5:43 AM
I write to raise the (I realize unlikely) possibility that Butter is playing "The Thrill is Gone" in second position on a natural minor tuned harp. Here is my thinking.

In watching the video, it does not look like third position playing to me because he seems to be playing down at the low end of the harp, and does not seem to be playing in the middle octave where the notes he plays would be if he was in third. This is just how it looks to me, and of course I could be wrong.

If he played in second, then he hit that bent flatted third perfectly every time he went there, at least to my ear, without ever sliding a bit up or down to it, and he used that note a lot. He was a great great player and maybe this was no issue for him, but it sure is for me when I try to play along in second.

But when I play along on my Lee Oskar natural minor tuned harp, that flatted third is built in so that I hit it perfectly every time. And with that harp, I can play that main riff he uses with relative ease, and sound a bit like Butter. I have not tried to reproduce the piece note for note, so have not done the work (as Pat Missan or someone might do) to see if any of the licks or runs that he plays cannot be played on a natural minor tuned harp, or could only be played in third or second on a regular tuned diatonic. So I make no scientific claim that it had to be a harp tuned this way or that. I just find that it is so much easier to play the parts I do try to copy with the minor tuned harp that it raises the question whether Butter did that.

I do not know when the Youtube video of Butter's "Thrill" was recorded, but it looks like the late 70s or early 80s, and Paul died in 1987, so we know it was before then. I do not know when natural minor tuned harps first became commercially available from Hohner (it looks to me like a Hohner harp Butter is playing based on what looks to me like a wood comb) and I realize that it is probable that Butter's recording predates that time.

But I have read that some players experimented with home-made special tunings going back decades (Al Wilson of Canned Heat used one per Pat Missan's website on "On The Road Again"). So I just wonder if it is possible that Butter made or had made or someone sent him a natural minor tuned harp to try out, or whatever, and he used it on this recording.

It just seems to me so much easier to play his arrangement of the tune cleanly with that built in flatted third, I had to wonder whether that was how Butter did it.

Just exploring the possibilities. Not claiming any special knowledge or insight.

Mighty Slim
wolfkristiansen
273 posts
Apr 01, 2014
8:42 AM
Right side up harmonica came naturally to me because of the first instrument I saw, heard and played as a child-- the family upright piano.

The high notes were on the right; it seemed natural to position the harmonica the same way when I first picked it up.

One way is no better than the other, of course. I don't believe left-handedness is what makes some play upside down; I think it's just the luck of the draw. However you started is what you will stick with.

That especially describes players who don't need to see the hole numbers to learn to play-- e.g. some "ear" players didn't bother looking for numbers as they started out.

Cheers,

wolf kristiansen
Oldman
1 post
Apr 10, 2016
4:10 AM
I'm playing upside down. Simply because never mindet about the "correct" way, when first picked up a harp many years ago. Since my favourite harps are from Seydel now, there are no (helpless) numbers on the harp anyway.
But beside of this, I think it is an advantage to quickly see, what key you hold in your hand.
Hohner and Seydel are marking the key at the high end (side with hole 10) of the harmonicas. So to is easy to see, when holding it in your righ hand.
For me it seems to be an advantage for the sound and bendings. Since my upper teeth are more to the front, it seem be to be easier for me, when I change the direction of air flow in my mouth while holding the harp upside down.
I saw many players lifting up the harp when bending extremes to get the air downwards to the harp and thus more straight through the draw reeds. When I do this, I have to lower the front of the harp,- thus, my nose is not in the way ;-)
There is another advantage what I suspect:
I like to use a relative small micro (no bullet) for amped playing. Holding the harp together with the mike in my right hand will put the mike more close to the lower reeds. I also like that amped "Chicago sound",- but please not so terrible harsch like many players who already have a thin tone without a mike.
But back to the topic of Butter: "The Thrill is gone"
Think he is using a G harp...
Start with a 6 draw, then bend it down a bit followed by a 6 blow, then a 5 draw. Same thing again, but then followed by two times a 4 draw...
al
139 posts
Apr 10, 2016
5:44 AM
I'm right handed and i hold the mic and moothie in my right hand. I think this just felt more comfy and natural when i started tae play. Not sure if it makes any difference in the long run. I met a guy called Mox Gowland years ago and he played harp at a weird 45 degree angle. One end at the left of his chin and the other end pointing tae his right ear.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/alprice
Martin
1000 posts
Apr 10, 2016
7:25 AM
If this is the version of "Thrill is gone" that´s discussed (a rather lacklustre performance to my ears)it is played on nothing else than an ordinary D harp.
Grey Owl
677 posts
Apr 10, 2016
8:00 AM
I'm with Martin if that is the version under discussion i.e. D harp in 2nd position on the video. I've tabbed out the opening phrase:-

-4/-4*+4-3*, -4+4-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*+4, -4+4-3*-2-2, -2-3*+4-4*+4-3*+4-2-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*-2-2.

But a G harp in 3rd (often used for minor key songs such as this) also works well.

-6/6*+6-5,-6+6-5-4-4, -6+6-5+6, -6+6-5-4-4, -4-5+6-6*+6-5+6-4-5-4-4, -6+6-5-4-4.

or another favoured minor harp position of 5th on an F harp.

-4/-4*+4-3*, -4+4-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*+4, -4+4-3*-2-2, -2-3*+4-4*+4-3*+4-2-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*-2-2.

I had a bash at this myself a while back on a D harp as an instrumental version, borrowing some of Butterfields opening then.....FWIW



GREY OWL HARP
YouTube

Last Edited by Grey Owl on Apr 10, 2016 8:50 AM
MP
3356 posts
Apr 10, 2016
5:41 PM
I think it sounds best in the Key of Bm. A harp in 3rd works well.
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Have good day. M.A.P.
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harpdaddy
11 posts
Apr 10, 2016
7:26 PM
I'm left handed and started playing acoustically like most. Since my left hand is my dominate hand it just worked better for it to be the one that opened and closed with the harmonica being in a fixed position in my right hand.
JustFuya
891 posts
Apr 11, 2016
3:39 PM
WolfK mentions that low notes to the left on the piano made it natural for him to translate this arrangement into his harp playing. I wonder if low notes to the right on the flute influenced PB's choice.

I gave a nice acoustic guitar and 2 chords to my little sister sometime in the 70s while I was visiting the family. She's a lefty and yet I never gave it a thought. Many years and a few lessons down the road she had become a better finger picker than most that I've played with. I still had no clue about my 'faux pas'.

It dawned on me about 10 years ago and I brought it up. I asked if she was ambidextrous. Nope. It's the only thing she does right handed and it feels natural to her. She had tried a lefty guitar and didn't like it. I'd like to try a left handed guitar for a short while just to see how difficult I imagine it would be.
Goldbrick
1379 posts
Apr 11, 2016
5:51 PM
Duane Allman, Mark Knopfler, Danny Gatton, Michael Bloomfield and Gary Moore were all leftys and seemed to do a pretty fair job playing guitar right handed


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