Song for a travelin' man: goin' out and comin' "back the same day". Nice. How do you do that constant chugging rhythm and play the melody too? ---------- Matthew
That's really great! You can hear him doing quite a bit of TB acrobatics there, in order to keep the chugging rhythm up as he plays the melody... I don't think I've ever heard anything really quite like this. It's really fantastic... I think I've just discovered my next playing goal. I must try to do this.
@harp-er - you have to use tongue blocking. If you're playing 4 draw for example, then your tongue is covering holes 123 and you're playing the 4 draw out of the right side of your mouth. To get this vamping effect, you keep lifting your tongue off and back on the harp, so the listener hears a constant 4 draw but also a chord rhythm from holes 123.
I love it, its what the harp was invented for to me. Jodan is right about being able to TB this. I don't think its achievable LPing but for those who don't TB on here this rhythm would be a good place to start learning, thanks for the heads up Jodan!!:o) ----------
Holey cow,this is so nice, if he's one of these beginners like me and playing for 3 years, and can get this far, i'm givin up, and taking on the bongo drums or something.
Thanks for posting this Jodan. I never really know what's going on inside my mouth but I think Jodan's explanation is right. It has been many years since I played LPing - so I don't know about it's rhythmic possibilities. I use TB for this song. I find the lower key's - Low E ,F and G have the best pulse for this piece. This is my first post - nice to meet everyone on the forum !
Welcome Dan. We have communicated previously. Really pleased you are on this forum now. Thoroughly enjoyed your piece and am currently knotting my tongue to try and do something like this. ----------
I'd also like to welcome Dan to the forum! We need a good dose of new inspiration around here from time to time, and I'm really happy to see Dan as a new addition! I'm mainly a LP player, and though I can actually do rhythmic chord vamping alternating with single notes (using the technique I like to refer to as "lip slapping"), I can really only do this while concentrating on holes 1 2 and 3 for the single notes. This is because, unlike the TB embouchure, the single note "focus" of LP is in the center of the triad, and not to the right of it. I must admit that until now there hasn't really been a "sound" I've heard from a TB embouchure that a) really grabbed me as something I wanted to have in my arsenal, and that b) I couldn't facsimile to a reasonable degree with a LP embouchure (aside from interval splits, of course). This sound that Dan has though, now THIS is something that makes me want to learn TB!
Welcome, Dan. That was some good playing right there. I switched to TBing everything about a year and a half ago, but have yet to master the chordal rhythm under a melody. This inspires me to work harder at it. Thanks to jodanchudan as well for posting it to begin with. ----------
Thanks for all the welcomes !!! !t's been a while a while since I've thought of LP - TB distinctions. Tonally each has it's own rich qualities and ideally being proficient at both would be great ( LPing is a skill I've lost ). Maybe a video would express this better, but for now i'll use words. There are 4 TB qualities important to me. 1 - Economy of motion, with so little movement I feel I can focus on other things. 2.- Moving between chords and single notes. 3.- Having the single note emerge from a texture around the edges ( like a guitar note coming out of distortion ) 4.- Using TB to split the melodic line for non-rhythmic purposes - Bad explanation I know. I'll see if i can make a video about this . Nice talking with all of you and hearing your ideas.
Well, I worked on learning this song pretty much all morning long, and here is what I came up with in the end:
I'm not even able to do half the things I hear in Dan's original, but hopefully I've been able to come somewhat close to the feel and groove of the original... I'm doing this 99% tongue blocked, which is a first for me. The only part where I go back to a LP embouchure is for the little trill that starts with a quick bend and release of the 4 draw and then rolls back down to the 2. There's no way I could plays something like that with a tongue block! Anyway, I'd love to hear any comments from y'all, especially from Dan if he would be so gracious!
BTW, I gotta say that my jaw is aching now! And the tip of my tongue is raw! Lol! :) ---------- == I S A A C ==
Oh, and for what it's worth, here's an example of my LP style of doing chord rhythms with single note melodies: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7325374/LP_chug_melody.mp3
You'll probably notice that it sounds "prettier" than the TB style above. I think that's because with the LP "lipslap" chording technique, you mouth stays focused on the 2draw when you come back to the single note from the chord, rather than being on the 3 draw like with the TB tongue slap chording technique. So I'm mainly playing around with the 1 draw, 2 draw, and 3 draw for my main melody in this one, whereas with Dan's song, I'm mainly playing around with the 2 draw, 3 draw, and 4 draw. So the focus of the "on the beat" single notes is melodically different between the styles, making the TB style sound more "bluesy" and the LP style sound more "upbeat".
Thanks Jodan! Actually, when I listen back to it I can hear that I'm not really ever getting the main riff right. I think it's because a) I keep messing up the full seal with my tongue on the left side, and I get a lot of octaves instead of clear single notes, and b) I'm focussing too much on three draw, and not up on 4 draw.
I gave it a try with my normal Lip Purse embouchure, moving up so that hole three is the center of the triad when I do the Lip Slap chording technique, and I found that I can get a sound that's not TOO different from the original. Since I'm much more comfortable with this embouchure, I find that I can get closer to Dan's original melody lines than I did when trying it Tongue Blocked...
EDIT: I also am realizing that in all my versions, I keep speeding up and loosing the beat! That will take a lot of work to get down... Man! This is some tough stuff to figure out! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Hi Isaac, I'm honored that your inspired to figure it out. my wife was listening along and said "hey thats sounding pretty good " I agree. I'll figure out that basic tab tomorrow and let you know - I think your right in that there's a note missing.......but it sounds like your getting the feel. In time, the raw tongue goes away.....although sometimes I switch to a special 20 if I'm playing for hours - it gives my mouth a break. You might try it walking around - even in a small circle - as walking is a great natural metronome.
Hey Dan if you tab it out, I'll try it too! The first lesson I had with Bill Barrett, he tried to get me to harmonize the C major scale in 6ths using corner switching--oops, no left side tongue blocking chops.
Here is the tab for the basic phrase D=Draw B=Blow b= draw bend
4 3 4 3 2 3 4 4 3 2 After this is established there are D b B b D b B D b D higher parts I go to. I'll try and tab out the higher parts later, but once the ( repeat ) 3 4 3 2 basic phrase is down , you can go b B b D where ever you want. I'm never sure if the 3 hole bend is a little more than a single bend. I'll have to sit down and figure that out. Thanks for adding to song !
Sweet! Thanks Dan for tabbing that, and for your encouraging words! I knew I was missing something, and I'm glad to see that my hunch about it being 4 draw and blow was correct. Your tab will help quite a bit! I'll also give the walking a try, as that seems like a very very good idea! I never thought about walking like a metronome before, but it makes perfect sense! I'm going to keep working on it and post another attempt... Thanks again! ---------- == I S A A C ==
I copied out your tab, pasted it into a text editor, and tried to get it formatted the way I think you had it before it got strangely garbled in your post above:
4 3 4 3 2 3 4 4 3 2 ( repeat ) D b B b D b B D b D
3 4 3 2 b B b D
Is that correct? It sounds good when I play it.... ---------- == I S A A C ==
Not wishing to hijack the thread but this topic is one that has interested me. I've been doing something similar but in first position for some time. I'm working it up for some summertime open mic concerts. I'm practicing Dans piece now too but second position brings in a new set of problems but I'm enjoying working on it. Here's what I have been doing in first position.
Last Edited by on May 20, 2012 12:31 PM
Ahh! That makes more sense! I was treating those four notes as a separate riff to be played after repeating the first one twice... It wasn't coming together in the correct groove, and now I know why! Now it's a compete cyclical groove! Sweet!
@tooka: That's some cool stuff! Very old-timey sounding, and should be perfect for your open-mics! Well played! ---------- == I S A A C ==
PS. This has been the most fired up I've gotten over learning something new on the harp in a long time! I'm really enjoying playing harp again! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Sounding good Isaac. Can I be stupid and ask what key you are using. I know I should know, but I don't. Yes it's great to get fired up again. All your past work and ideas can be called upon to throw it into another direction. I can see you developing this with your looper and beatbox capabilities. The permutations are endless.
Thanks tooka! It's a low E-harp, which I believe is what Dan plays in his original... I just really love this type of harp sound... For me, it's what the harp was meant for, and I think it's a shame you don't hear it more often! ---------- == I S A A C ==
The more I listen to Dan's track the more I convince myself there are two harps playing there. I try and try and can get nowhere near it yet. The tongueing and breath co-ordination is really hard to control.
How the hell does Dan do it? I know it's just the one harp but Dan's got some brutal tongue action going on there.
@tooka: Yeah, it's damn hard! There's more than just a steady lifting of the tongue going on. There's also a little bit of in-out breath patterning, and Dan is doing some polyrhythms within the overall groove. I've been using a slow-downer software to listen to this, and although it helps me hear it, and I can count it out while it's slowed, I'm still having a hard time actually playing it! This is a really great challenge, and I'm really enjoying tackling this! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Thanks Tooka, i like your Tongue block shimmy too. Its funny that you say 2nd position brings its own set of problems because i get the same problems with 1st position. I need to spend loads more time on 1st and 3rd pos but that's another thread entirely :o) ----------
Nice Ant! You can really tell that you've been working on your TB tone, because you've got waaaaaay better articulation and clarity than I can get! It sounds great! I also love your use of hand muting. I think that's probably essential to getting the right sound on this one...
I think we've all got the basic groove, and the basic technique, but somehow we are all still missing something... I'm not sure what it is, but I know that it's not there! We'll keep working and we will figure it out!
One thing I need to keep working on is airflow management, as I keep running out of breath! It's a beast this one, but so addictive! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Ant, Isaac, Me. Funny, we all found this forum at about the same time way back when. It's interesting to note how our enthusiasm is just as insatiable as it was and also how we have progressed since those early days. I think we should be quite pleased with ourselves. It's been fun learning harp with you guys at my side. We've done our apprenticeship but now we've gotta crack this one. ----------
@Isaac & Tooka , it's been a fun learning curve with you guys. It's interesting the way we've all gone in different directions on the harp over ther years but we've all Managed to improve.
I'm going to buy a Low Eb special 20 on payday and try to get to grips with this. I love an excuse to buy a new harp:o)...and maybe a new comb to go with it.
We should make it a long term project to nail this.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
Last Edited by on May 21, 2012 1:40 PM
Tooka - nice melody! I haven't touched that kind of 1st position playing, but I clearly should. Love that kind of solo harp.
Ant - sounds sweet. Damn, I need to work on this tune. Might give it a shot tomorrow. You've got to check out 'Shuffle and Skip' from Dan's Vera Hall album too - swinging solo harp!
Once again I'm honored and happy that everyone is having fun with this. It's really nice having the song go where ever you guys take it. Tooka's piece is great and Isaac and Ant are really narrowing in on the basic groove. I created this walking around and so a lot of the breathing patterns are from that - I think that helps finding the in and out patterns ( as Isaac calls them ) I also think a lot about dance music - from the Bessie Smith era - and how you really want the rhythm and melodic lines to move you from side to side...not just up and down. - I guess some day we'll just all have to get together and play this..
