In a different thread, REM made the following post:
"...I think it would be fantastic if Spah made "highlights videos" of the conventions. This is something they do at the international juggling festival that I use to attend when I was younger. Essentially it would be a video showing clips of all the great things that happen at spah. You would have clips of different performances, clips of the jams and impromptu hallway jams, clips of the vendors room where you talk with the vendors about there products, clips of impromtu performances by individual attendees, short interviews with attendees, etc. etc.
Some stuff like this ends up on youtube, but the idea would be to shoot a highquality version of this stuff and have it professionally editted together into a video. You could then sell these highlights videos.
People who attended the convention will want to have the video to remember what a great time they had all the great stuff that happened (and see stuff they might have missed, there's no way you can see it all). I know when I was attending I wanted to catch everything on video, but I didn't want to have to be constantly filming instead joining in on the fun and relaxing. Also, I'm sure that a lot of people who didn't attend would want to buy a copy to see all the great performances and all the other cool stuff that goes on (it might even entice some people to attend for the very first time). I wasn't able to attend the last festival, and I know I personally would have loved to buy a well made DVD of highlight from the convention (just to see all the great stuff I missed out on)."
Since this is a different subject than the SPAH presidency, I decided to respond here in a new thread.
REM,
This is a great idea, and I've thought the same thing. Even if they had a few 10 minute videos embedded on the SPAH web site this would be nice, and would be a great way to promote and generate interest in the event.
I also say, why not video everything.... every seminar, every performance, everything! SPAH could then make this for sale on their web site, which would be a great way for those who were unable to attend, or even those who did attend, a chance to see what they missed. Of course, SPAH attendees should be allowed to purchase this at a discounted price.
There have been many times when I've missed a seminar or performance because I was tied up doing something else, and wished I could have gotten a copy of it somehow. There have also been times when I DID attend the seminar and still would've liked to own a DVD or CD of it.
The Christian college I attended hosted an annual music conference, which had a very similar format as a SPAH convention. They did this same thing - captured all of the seminars and performances, and made them available on tape, CD, or DVD. This was a great money-making opportunity for them to help offset some of the costs associated with hosting such an expensive event. And each year, a booth was set-up to sell CD's and DVD's from the prior years as well.
Perhaps SPAH should consider doing something such as this if they haven't already. Have they? It's not as expensive to do as one might think. Even if some seminars were only available in audio format, this would still be great in my opinion.
I thought it was a good idea, too, until I read Winslow's post. By the way, you can read Harp-L on Google Groups without joining. I seldom post, anyway.
I still would like to explore ways to enhance the value of SPAH to members beyond holding the convention.
I see the challenges to expanded services as being limitations in the available number of person-hours to do the work (the conventions are hosted by local harmonica clubs with SPAH members assisting), and financial limitations. Everything SPAH does is by the efforts of volunteers. ----------
From what I've been able to gather, the rights problems stem from one trouble maker ONCE and SPAH has been gun shy about it ever since. Of course SPAH shouldn't violate copyright or other ownership rights. However SPAH never asked for the rights beforehand - I firmly believe if they begin doing so it will never be an issue again. The VERY few who decline to participate because of this request can easily be replaced. ---------- /Greg
My wife attends a trade show for the greenhouse industry. She can purchase a dvd of every class that was taught at the trade show. Therefore, this is not a revolutionary idea that cannot be done. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
I have never been to a SPAH or been a member but as I have read through posts here about it a few things came to me. It seems our generation is continually trying to make things bigger and include the younger generation.
I ask why? Is SPAH in danger of finacial collapse? Are the memebers and people attending the conventions not having any fun?
If so, raise the rates, and cut down on the finacial size of things. Get creative. If the members are not satified then you have things to look at for sure. Young people like to create their own things. If you want them in, give them a segment to develop on their own with no restrictions. That will attract young people, not us trying to convince them they need to learn the harp.
Our culture seems obsessed with ever expansion. It is hard wired into western genes. I say if the people attending and the members are enjoying the experience, leave it as it is. Music generes today have been so watered down it is hard to tell what is a blues song, a country song, a rock song, a folk song. Much of this is due to the proponents of these styles forever trying to reach a wider and younger audience. Soon you end up with the original lovers saying it stinks today and the younger ones saying it is still way too backward. Throughout history religions have had to go underground to preserve their ideals. Music and art have had to do the same thing. It seems that thought is extinct today.
If people can't afford to make it to conventions so be it. If they really want to be there they will. You are a club and not mandated by the government to reach all equally. Staying vibrant will only happen if the members are excited about it. This is not measuered b ythe number of members in a club but by the joy the members in it get from it. I say have your fun and not worry about what the future generations will or will not do. Let them figure out their own culture. They will eventually reach back to the roots but if the roots have been grafted to so many different things they will have no root to find. If the harmonica dies with our generation so be it. Eventually people will rediscover it and it will flourish. The blues revival of the 60'-70's flourished by in large due to this. The young people discovered the blues on their own. Their parents didn't shove it down their throats. From there they sought out the old bluesmen who were still the root. From there it is all chronicled history on a great new musical movement that led to bands like Cream, The Stones, Beatles, etc. A small example of this is the looping thing starting up with harp players here. It is being started by the younger generation but electronic looping started way back with Les Paul and I am sure some young kid will eventually emerge with a mix of old analog gear and the state of the art stuff and it will be called revoluntionary by their peers.
Enjoy you SPAH and your conventions. From what I read it seems like most all in attedance love it. Keep expanding and you will water it down to plain jane boring generic crap that fills our every inch of society today. Walter
PS: I write this from my experience with my music. I have been challenged many times with reaching wider audience via abandoning spontobeat and honing my songwriting skills. I have had many passionate people come to me with this offer. It was tempting because their passion was sincere. But as I mulled it over I found and continue to find that I prefer to stay in the unknown musician catagory. Why? Because I am passionate about how my approach to music and I am not going to starve if I stay with it. Many of my full time musician friends are not at all satified with their music. They have often said they wish they could stay as true to theirs as I stay to mine but they cite $ and that means compromise. I really never have understood this. I walked the same road they have but instead of bending to stay current, I went to college and got a career I am passionate about that supports my music. I am nothing special. Just an average Joe like them. To be playing the instruments you love but not the music you love sounds like living hell. They say if one is satified there is no desire to change anything. I wonder how many of the people calling for change are truly satified with their own life? Food for thought............. ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Greg is right. The original law suit was brought on by a loony tune and was ultimately deemed frivolous and thrown out of court (however, not before legal bills were amassed). No matter what precautions you may have, a nut case like this can always cause problems by constantly self-filing complaints w/the court.
However, the gun shy over reaction by SPAH is not an effective way to run a non-profit organization devoted to educating and expanding. The fact that Winslow posted a long reiteration regarding all the problems and fears is an indication of entertaining this same mind set rather than tackling and overcoming this problem - not very entrepreneurial in spirit, which is what SPAH needs in order to re-energize its presence.
Perhaps the status quo in charge are too deeply entrenched in 10 years of politically oriented out of date philosophy and a radical change would be refreshing?
My experience w/non-profit educational based organizations is that they video tape EVERYTHING - performances, seminars, workshops, etc, and then make them available to members - either for sale as dvd or access on the web site with a password given to paid up membership, so obviously it can be done, regardless of real or imagined problems and/or issues.
Time for SPAH to re-invent, re-energize, seize the day, toss off endless fear based committee discussions and old mindsets, and truly strive to become a world class organization.
Hopefully a presidential candidate will emerge that shows this type of excitement.
The original lawsuit may have been filed by a single "loony tune", but it's inaccurate to say that if you simply ask permission from all attendees you have solved the problem.
As Winslow explained in the harp-l post, not only is there a rights issue with the likeness and live performance of everybody in the video, but there is also one with the copyright holders for any of the copyrighted songs performed in the video.
I'd say if you make a video and distribute it in any significant numbers for $$$ without permission (not just from attendees, but from the song owners), you probably can count on hearing from a copyright holder at some point. Hell, the copyright nazi's are so heavy handed, I've seen videos on youtube from kids trying to demonstrate how to play a simple guitar riff yanked for copyright reasons. It feels like their awareness is at an all-time high with the ubiquity of YT.
I'd call it a cheap shot to say recognizing this problem constitues a "politically oriented out of date philosophy", sounds to me more like a guy who has thought about the practical problems of implementing something members have asked about.
It doesn't mean a damn thing, in this context, that other non-profits video tape and distribute everything. Maybe none of their content has been perviously copyrighted. Maybe they have the financial resources to pay the fees demanded by the owners of any copyrighted material. Who knows?
I've got no dog in the fight, not a member of SPAH, don't plan on being one. I only posted due to my interest in the copyright issue in general, and what looked to be an unfair attack on a guy who seemed to have a handle on the issue.
While I appreciate people brainstorming ideas, the dollar amounts associated with this piece will be pretty high.
You have to invest in the recording gear, pay for the rights to the music, and pay to have it edited, etc. No one should have to do any of that for free.
Like in most cases, overhead is a huge issue. If you throw out the need to record actual performances and stick strictly to learning material streamed from the site (see bluesharmonica.com for instance), would it make any money? I don't know.
I don't know enough about what SPAH wants or expects to really help, but my suggestion is to focus on the why around SPAH and work from there. The focus can't be on SPAH, but on the betterment of those who participate in SPAH.
Thinking about making SPAH money before deciding how that money can help SPAH members is a fatal flaw. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the heart...
If the seminar videos (perhaps not performance ones) were not being sold, but were a members only resource then I would have thought that 'fair use' exemption for educational purpose might be applicable to any music contained within them. Worth investigating surely?
I know I'll never be able to afford a 9000 mile round trip to attend a SPAH seminar, but I'd pay $45 a year to be able to view them online.
As for Walter's point about why engage the young? - SPAH is about "Preservation and Advancement' of the harmonica'. How is that going to happen without engaging new membership?
@dougharps "I see the challenges to expanded services as being limitations in the available number of person-hours to do the work (the conventions are hosted by local harmonica clubs with SPAH members assisting), and financial limitations."
This is not an issue. The issue is the committee based corporate mindset.
Unless you have experienced the history of SPAH, there are factors of which you are unaware.
In the late 90's, SPAH was structured as a lean mean entrepreneurial machine. Four BOD and 1 Sgt at Arms. All planning, development and execution stemmed from this very small and focused group of dedicated individuals.
Every BOD offered input and everything was voted on. The president never over rode the results, even if it was 3 to 1 against him. A true working democracy.
Eventually, the complete convention, from concept to execution, was done by 2 people - Bob Williams and myself. This included booking hotel, choosing banquet menu, contracting performers and back up musicians, all media promotions, seminar presentations, video taping, sound systems, vendor tables - everything. The local harmonica clubs were used as a basic support group - mostly coordinating transportation to and from airport for entertainment and providing us with a list of media contact numbers. We did 98% of the work, local club assisted when needed.
In the 4 years that the convention planning was done in this fashion, it was really streamlined and operated very efficiently, so got easier each year. No large committees debating each aspect, not a lot of Indian Chiefs with few Indians, and no fear of accomplishing the amazing.
For example: Two things we were told or counseled that would not happen...
1. Kim Wilson hates appearing at these types of shows, especially when he can't bring his whole band with him.
2. Toots is too busy and too expensive to have at a convention.
Well, being told these things only felt like a challenge to Bob and I, so, we tackled them and did them with minimum fuss, fear, or endless committee discussions. Creative thinking made these items happen - without spending a lot of money, either.
The next item we were told was impossible was:
3. You can't get Stevie Wonder to a convention. His handlers get in the way.
We were just starting to approach this one with the idea to send him a letter in Braille, a good shot at an end run around his mgt and entourage. However, this was in late 2000 and everything changed with the new President, Doug Tate.
Doug was a career public school teacher, well versed in politics and committees as a foundation rather than entrepreneurial spirit. Starting with his presidency, the philosophy changed and the forward momentum stagnated and became committee based. Local harmonica groups were given the task of most of the convention preparation and execution, with SPAH as a "support group", kinda the mirror image of the successful model that was in place pre-Tate.
I feel that this philosophy has been kept in place up till now, even with the new president and BOD.
So, seems like a change is needed and more people are asking better questions, spurred on by the new election looming for president.
It is good information to know a little of the history and evolution over the past 15 years, looking at models that worked and philosophies that seem to bog down the forward momentum, so that the candidates can tackle the important concerns and questions being raised by the world wide harmonica community through these new forums.
I've loved SPAH, seen the true potential through lean and mean entrepreneurial spirit and also watched in disappointment as it evolved into its political and committee based entity.
Still believing that SPAH can evolve into a truly world class organization, I hope whoever wins the election will take steps to jump start fearlessly and propel the needed change through the next Presidential term.
@Iceman Thanks for your perspective on SPAH history. I was not a member of SPAH during that time, only becoming aware of it well after these changes. ----------
MrVerylongusername: I didn't mean exclude the young. I meant invite them via letting them run some aspects of the club with no adult restraints. If the club is truly passionate in nature for attracting young people it will embrace this. IMO adults often fear failure more than anything and try to control, out of good intention, the edeavors of the young. That makes for dreams seeped in fear of failure and most likely will run off the youngsters much like when Dad comes in on a project the kids are doing and tries to steer it. The kids usually lose interest and the dad ends up with it by himself. But if dad is passionately working on something it will attract the youngsters. The key is not to direct it but let the kids find it on their own. Give them a bit of info and let them fly. Young people often have total confidence in success because they haven't experienced much failure yet. That is the greatest gift youth brings to our life. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@Waltertore re: "I ask why? Is SPAH in danger of finacial collapse? Are the memebers and people attending the conventions not having any fun? "
Those of us who can afford to attend are a tiny fraction of the people SPAH seeks to reach, support and represent. SPAH's structure has always been heavily based on local harmonica clubs (as opposed to internet ones.) These clubs were generally formed in the late 40's and early 50's in the heydey of the harmonica bands. Today the number and size of these clubs is dwindling as the membership is aging, and those clubs were almost all very focused on chromatic harp. As a result SPAH's revenues ARE dwindling too.
The conventions are a religious experience for any harp player and are truly wonderful gatherings. But to attract more members (and revenues) SPAH has to embrace the fact that these clubs can no longer be the core of SPAH's membership and volunteer workforce. Instead, the core needs to be an internet based community as we have here at MBH.
I think both Winslow and Bob understand this and will work to make it happen.
Who from SPAH is the spokesperson (formally or informally) for SPAH on this site? I mean, SPAH has someone keeping an eye and communicating about this site and Harp-L, right? Slidemeister too...right?
I know Hohner and Suzuki are reading this board today to keep a pulse on all things harmonica.
Run SPAH like a successful non-profit or business. We all play some blues and know more than enough about copying and stealing from others. Just do that with SPAH too. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Greg: thanks for the SPAH history. I learned my harp and music being in the clubs around the old blues guys. I never heard of SPAH until I got on this forum. I think membership decline is happening across the board with the old school mens clubs (elks, moose, etc). It also is happening in the model R/C plane clubs. I fly radio controlled sailplanes and the population shrinks with each old timers death. I have quit my membership in the national and local clubs because it is too seeped in the fear of its collapse. I prefer to fly my planes instead of be around that kind of negative energy. Young kids come up to me all the time as I toss my planes off slopes. I share info as they are interested. I think much of the problem today is the youth has so many options for hobby it is mindboggling. I don't pretend to have answers and have no opinion on where SPAH is going. I am more intriqued by the process than the outcome of this discussion. My main point is if one has a passion for something, simply do it. If ones passion is to bring in new ideas and members go for it. Those that criticize without getting involved are not worth giving an ear to. The world is full of armchair quaterbacks that live unfullfilled lives. If we all did what inspired us it would be a different world than we know today. There would be no all powerful critics halting new ideas and art/quality of life would flourish because we all would be too busy with our passions to listen to those people. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
"Those that criticize without getting involved are not worth giving an ear to. The world is full of armchair quaterbacks that live unfullfilled lives. If we all did what inspired us it would be a different world than we know today. There would be no all powerful critics halting new ideas and art/quality of life would flourish because we all would be too busy with our passions to listen to those people."
Honkin On Bobo: Thanks! I tend to clear rooms at parties and get little response on forums. Most people don't talk this stuff. They are at home talking details and mechanics of things and not the soul of it. I use to feel sad about this but am use to it and feel lucky to be where I am at. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Walter, worrying about whether the next generation will like the harmonica does seem to be in the pervue of an organization with 'preservation' in the title. Some people get great joy out of sharing their stuff with other people. We are all wired a little differently that way. I love sitting down and helping people learn about what I love, or just to brainstorm.
As for the rights issue and recording expenses- certainly there have to be some SPAH members who have some of the equipment needed to record- if SPAH has all their non-profit paperwork in place, couldn't they accept the labor as an in kind donation? (Of course, what musician pays enough taxes to need a tax write-off!)
If you could get the labor and equipment donated, then maybe you could distribute the product for free- think of it as advertisement for future events- and that might get you around some of the royalty issues. (A lot of artists on YouTube have realized that when someone covers one of their songs they aren't losing anything so much as gaining advertisement. Lots of covers and remixes are allowed to be posted on YouTube with the only condition being that there is a link to where you can buy the original included.)
Just a thought, and I'm no expert, but I do think when you limit your distribution you lose opportunity. For instance, I'm poor... so you don't see me on any of the for pay harmonica sites.
Er, wait... which side am I on? Keep the riff raff out!
There are many copyright issues when selling copies of a performance, so why not just film it and put it all on Youtube for free?
Make all performers sign a release form allowing you to use their likeness in photos and filming.
Youtube has deals with most record companies to pay for use of the songs people post. If the copyright owner has an issue with the content then they can file a DMCA complaint against your video. If this happens then your video will be removed. No biggie.
The point is to drive traffic to a website and garner attention to the event. These things alone have potential of making money and growing the event.
IMO Adam makes the case in this video... give it all away.
Hallelujah. finally a voice of reason that may poke a hole in the balloon of fear based analysis paralysis regarding this issue that I've seen posted to date...
Sounds great to me. At least it is worth investigating.... ---------- The Iceman
As I said above, in an educational, non-profit or free context, "Fair-use" exemption would probably cover any copyrighted material played in a workshop context.
As far as entertainment/performance is concerned it makes no difference if a recording is free or sold, it is an infringement of copyright.
Exemptions are original compositions by the performer (assuming signed permission is obtained), Specific permission from the copyright holder and works that are in the public domain (for which there are specific definitions - see www.pdinfo.com)
Whilst the rules on publishing cover versions of copyrighted music are flouted everyday by thousands of individuals, I wouldn't be surprised if a larger organisation might be targeted.
So... whole performance videos would cause some headaches, but I don't think it would be impossible to produce edited highlights if the will and resources were there.
Speaking personally, I can view performance footage of most major artists anyway. It's the educational stuff that would really swing the deal for me -written or video. For the naysayers - just look at the popularity of Howard Levy's and Dave Barrett's sites. Build the traffic to the SPAH site, monetize it with some unintrusive, harp-related google-ads. You could probably recoup the outlay in a couple of years.
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2011 11:13 AM
