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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
The 5W Amp Question (Again)
The 5W Amp Question (Again)
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MindTheGap
2214 posts
Apr 12, 2017
11:59 PM
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I see the 5W amp question is being discussed again on the main forum. Is it loud enough, is it the amp for all seasons etc.
Because I'm currently on drums, I'm now listening to somebody else playing their harp though a 5W amp. I can't tell 5W isn't loud enough on it's own. We are not a loud band. In particular I play the drums quietly. It's not that you can't hear it, just that its nice sound isn't coming through. I think it would be fine with an all-acoustic band.
Superbee, you say it's fine with your band? Can you say a bit more? Is your new line-up massively quieter then?
This is all very relevant here, because these amps are targeted at beginning players, obviously. I'm sure all 5W amps aren't equal, but at some level one can't be that much louder than another can it?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 13, 2017 12:06 AM
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SuperBee
4622 posts
Apr 13, 2017
1:23 AM
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Well, yes, that's what intrigues me with the claims made for the MM. is it extraordinarily loud compared to my 5F1?
I doubt it, but it may be possible that it's a bit louder. I have a standard OT. Maybe the MM and its all-American competitor the HG2 have higher-rated OTs which allow for more clean headroom.
Mine gets to a point where it's a box of bees sound. Beyond that there is nothing to gain. But maybe those amps are able to be turned up to that point and retain some musical quality by virtue of an OT which handles the output.
I don't know, but it could be worth a try. An OT is not very expensive.
But it's true that my champ is now ok in the practice room. Yes, we are much quieter now. It's a real blessing.
We practice in a small studio space. A proper recording studio with acoustic separation. It's about 4m square I suppose.
I put the champ up on a Marshall half stack, so it's close to ear level. The drummer is in the diagonally opposite corner, guitar to my left and bass to my front right.
Guitar through a 40watt 12". I could easily hear the champ and even sense the reward for careful cupping and tone shaping work. Played carelessly it did tend to sound thin but with attention it was very good.
That said, yesterday I used the Princeton Reverb in the same room but just up on a milk crate, and it blew the champ away. I had the PR on volume 3, in the low gain input, and was worried it was too loud. Bass player said no, harp needs to be grabbing you by the heartstrings, it needs to be loud.
But with this drummer it is possible to use a champ, and hear it on stage. If it was miked or lined out, I'd say it would be ok.
That video of portnoy though, sounded thin to me. But I remember listening to master recordings on various devices and that convinced me that listening to music on mobile phone music players does not provide a sound basis for comment
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MindTheGap
2215 posts
Apr 13, 2017
3:15 AM
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I expect you can get more efficiency out of it with different speakers and transformers, but there must be a practical limit.
I think it's great to practice with a 5W amp, for all those amped-sound techniques you can get. But from the reported stories, it seems like other people have experienced the disappointment of not being able to make it work well with a band.
The MM has a line out, and I fitted one to mine which does make a difference. I don't go to jams, but from what I read you don't always have the luxury of being able to use the line-out there anyway.
I agree with your bass player - the harp needs to be loud, certainly loud enough. If the amp is too loud, you can always play quieter can't you? That tends to sound good I think. Whereas playing (acoustically) louder to try to be loud doesn't sound so good IMO.
As you say, it's tricky trying to analyse stuff from those videos, but in the one you mention it looks and sounds like he's playing 'loud' i.e. long, powerful, unwavering notes. I actually quite like it, but it is a particular style. Maybe an answer is indeed to change your playing style to suit a particular amp, or band volume, I'd not really thought of that before.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 13, 2017 3:35 AM
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SuperBee
4623 posts
Apr 13, 2017
3:36 AM
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I've used 5 different amps in there so far.
Ampeg Jet around 15 watt, 12"
6L6SE 5-10watt?, 10"
VibroChamp XD 5 watt, 8"
5F1 clone 5 watt, 8"
silverface Princeton Reverb 12 watt, 10"
The Princeton was really king in there but the hybrid VibroChamp XD was also very capable. I'm not sure why that would be but I've always been impressed with that amp.
The 6L6SE was also fine. I'm not sure the power of that one, but no doubt the 10" helps. Through a 12" that amp is quite close to keeping up with the Princeton, based on side by side comparison I made at a garage jam. I think a SE 6L6 is quite capable of producing 10 watts, but I'm not clear about this one.
I used to use 5 watt in another band I practiced with. That was quite subdued and the 5 watt sounded rich and full there. That drummer was very relaxed, actually played in a band which supported sbw2 in England back in the day (possibly one of those boys who wanted to play the blues so bad, and succeeded in doing so)
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MindTheGap
2216 posts
Apr 15, 2017
12:37 AM
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It all seems to suggest that having a range of amps is a good idea.
A small tube amp seems an obvious first purchase for someone getting into amped harp. It's useful to discuss its capabilities, beyond the "It's great! It's rubbish" arguments.
In a nutshell my own experience is: too loud for home practice, ok for a quiet band and small room, too quiet for a moderately loud band.
Adding an attenuator and a line-out extended the range of usefulness quite a bit. Some of them, like the MM, come with a line-out fitted. But not many come with a power attenuator.
As for endorsements, I'm sure we all take them with a pinch of salt. I can believe that people are happy to put their name to an amp because they think it's good, without having to use it all the time themselves.
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SuperBee
4626 posts
Apr 15, 2017
5:44 PM
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Hopefully people understand endorsements and can draw their own conclusions. Endorsements do work though, just depends on the parties.
Also, 'once bitten twice shy' expresses a concept worth thinking about on all corners of the vendor/endorser/mark triangle.
But mainly I get there's a perception that some of us get caught up in the hobby and the paraphernalia can become a big part of it, maybe because buying things is exciting and immediately satisfying and actually learning to play is slower and takes longer to pay off the investment. That's a notable tendency in 'masters/veteran' pursuits of all types I think. And there is a hefty contingent of middle-aged folks who pick up harmonicas, especially where the blues and thoughts of Chicago blues are contemplated.
I'm aware I'm a 53 year old 'intermediate' harp player, interested in recreating what is probably largely considered 'museum-style' music, so I fall squarely into the paradigm. I eschew a fedora only because I am too chicken hearted to wear the ridicule, but I do often don an op-shop suit.
And I love the tube amps also as a nostalgic idea which helps me hold on to memories of growing up around a wizard who wielded multimeter and soldering iron.
So what I'm saying is that probably some of us get a 5 watt tube amp just because whimsy. Maybe some regret it. It's a bit like love perhaps. Very difficult/unsatisfying to talk rationality with someone who is besotted with an irrational idea.
And sometimes it leads to tragedy, sometimes to wisdom, and sometimes they all live happily ever after.
until they die and then it's a tragedy so everything leads to tragedy and that's why they call it the blues (edited to finish on a more succinct if equally banal observation)
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 15, 2017 5:49 PM
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MindTheGap
2217 posts
Apr 15, 2017
11:47 PM
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Amen to all that. The whimsy element is important and not to be denied.
Expanding your idea, I think that buying kit is a useful spur to keep a person going through the ups and downs of learning something. Particularly playing an instrument which will take years, during which you're going to go through love, hate, plateaus, frustrations, elations, boredom.
In that sense, the harp is particularly good. Although tube amps are bit pricey unfortunately. But even with a little 5W amp, I enjoyed trying out different tubes and that kind of thing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2017 11:52 PM
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Fil
296 posts
Apr 16, 2017
5:19 AM
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Whimsy is what got me into harp in the first place, which quickly became something of an obsession. At 70, I wish I'd started at 53. I fight the impulse to buy gear, but enjoy losing the battle sometimes. Funny comment about the fedora. I bought a couple of hats I thought to be suitable, looked at myself in the mirror, thought about my playing, and decided I had a ways to go before I earned them. Gave them to the thrift store. Will hang on to the 5 watt tube amp for a while.
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Phil Pennington
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ScottK
67 posts
Apr 16, 2017
7:45 AM
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still wondering abut this myself. Still planning on getting a vht special 6 soon, though a little unsure if I should be getting a louder amp- I'm starting to play more with bands, one particular is a loud rock band. So far with them I've used the PA going back and forth playing acoustic into a 58 on a stand and using my 545sd for holding/cupping. I know I can mic the amp when I get it and I have some equipment so I can mic it, use my powered mixer and one of my speakers as a monitor or to boost volume, so I think Im ok. (eventually Id like to get a powered monitor. Mostly I want to be able to be in control of my own sound on stage, hear myself etc. The thing I may get next if funds permit is the harp break peddle. When I get the amp I'll post some updates.
Last Edited by ScottK on Apr 16, 2017 7:52 AM
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SuperBee
4629 posts
Apr 16, 2017
5:44 PM
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Used PA myself at first but grew tired of bad experiences. If you have good relationship with PA operator and either you or someone who can operate a mixer knows how to amplify a harp, the PA is the easiest way to go.
That's an important 'if' though.
It seemed I had a different sound engineer every gig, and the 'circuit' we were on did not involve acts where harmonica was common. It was very noticeable when the soundy had solid understanding of harp. Or even just experience in mics and acoustic instruments on a loud stage.
Too many bad experiences saw me opting to use my own amp on stage. This was all about having control over what I could hear. I trust the soundy to manage front of house.
It didn't help that I was very inexperienced. But having my own (loud) amp on stage put an end to the super-frustrating times of not being able to hear. Often it was about feedback, I understand why they couldn't turn me up in the monitor but they didn't understand how to manage the stage so they could give me foldback without feedback, and nor did I.
At the same time, a 5 watt amp would have been useless to me on that stage. 30watts with 12" was barely enough.
After awhile I went to 60watt 4x10" and that was usually really good, though sometimes still drowned out.
Whereas, in the current band that big amp is heaps and I think I could probably get away with a mid-size combo.
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bublnsqueak
83 posts
Apr 16, 2017
11:25 PM
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I've not played with a band just a few jamming sessions with mates.
I imagine that the 5W amp could never keep up with your average guitar and drummer in terms of volume.
I would have thought that it serves well both as a home practice amp and as a monitor on stage with a line out to the PA for volume.
Is it really so loud on stage that the 5W is not even useable as a monitor? If so, that sounds like hearing damage territory.
Paul
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MindTheGap
2218 posts
Apr 16, 2017
11:30 PM
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ScottK - micing the amp to a powered speaker worked for me, and emulates a bigger amp which you are still in control of. I found it gave a better sound than using the amp's line out.
I do think Superbee's solution is the best i.e. having a range of amps to suit each need. But that's expensive and must involve more effort in maintaining them - or love depending on how you feel about it. The 'small amp + powered speaker' is a modular approach. It's lighter too.
Maybe that's a marketing angle the 5W amp vendors should try. Rather than trying to give the impression (implicitly or explicitly) that the little amp is somehow magically always loud enough. I know they mention reinforcing using line-out-to-PA but the signal from the line-out simply isn't as rich and complex (=nice) as the signal from a mic.
At one point I considered fitting a mic into the amp's cabinet with a mounted XLR socket for this purpose. To cut down on setup faff.
ScottK - re the pedals idea, although I think the Harp Break is excellent, I have to conclude that for playing to the PA the Joyo JF14 American Sound is actually much more versatile. Especially with the little mod that forum member BlueThird detailed. The HB does what it says on the tin, and really well, i.e. provides break up in front of an existing lovely-sounding amp. It has a bass boost if you like that. But it doesn't colour the sound, and it's not supposed to. The Joyo AS does add a 'voice' to the sound which IMO is better for going into the clean PA or powered speaker, or clean keyboard amp.
When I say 'better' I mean subjectively, musically, because I like the nasally, mouthy sounds I hear on old recordings. You may like the straighter sound of the HB.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 16, 2017 11:47 PM
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SuperBee
4630 posts
Apr 17, 2017
1:27 AM
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Paul, it just depends who you're playing with. My experience has led me to think it's an exceptional situation in which I could use a 5w 8" combo as a monitor with a full band.
Very frustrating when you can't hear what you're playing. Personally I don't think it's worth the bother. I take a big amp unless I absolutely know I can use something smaller.
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ScottK
68 posts
Apr 17, 2017
10:31 AM
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Thanks superbee and MTG for the ideas. much appreciated.
MTG- Thanks for letting me know about the Joyo JF14 American Sound. That was new info for me. I searched the forum and some some old posts. Including yours with a pic of your case and eqip. Its got good reviews online and for $40 on amazon and $30 on ebay, that's affordable for me to give a try! Then instead of saving up for a harp break I can save up for a bulletini with VC ha ha!
I also have a DM13 Ive only tried a little, I think my 545sd sounds better in my PA but when I have an amp, I'll be trying it out again.
I also bought a used boss dd3, which is still at guitar center, and I'll try it with the vht when it comes in. I have a period of time to return the delay and amp should I decide.
So staying true to staying in my lowish budget and using what I already have I'll prob order my vht sp 6 and then use a mic into my mackie powered mixer and speakers as needed which sound really nice- and keep the load light. (I've got aches and pains ya know and I know I'm not alone with that!) And my buds at guitar center are saying they all are going towards keeping it light and micing or direct line into PA.
And as Suberbee said, I also want to have control over at least my sound on stage and whats coming out of my amp. And the sound if I only use pedals into the PA.
Heres another question:
If I mic my amp into my powered mixer and speaker and use as a monitor for my own stage setup when i play with a band (and I have in mind this band Im starting to play with that is loud, led zep etc and I like to be back relatively close to the drummer)and I have a second mic from my amp that also goes to the bands PA. Should I just have 2 mics in front of my amp? I guess I could also go from my powered mixer direct to the bands PA.
Or does it just make sense to try both and see what sounds best? Thanks
I'm going back to finishing my taxes now...
Last Edited by ScottK on Apr 17, 2017 10:40 AM
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MindTheGap
2219 posts
Apr 17, 2017
10:46 AM
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ScottK. You're welcome. The Joyo JF14 is so 'budget' it's daft not to try one! You'll have read - watch out for gain, it would be easy to dismiss it as a fuzzbox.
Re your question, I'd have thought you'd only need the one mic, in front of the small amp. And take that signal to your powered speaker and to the PA.
Sounds like you know this stuff already, but for the benefit of others: you can get radically different sounds from an amp from where you position the mic - lots of fun to be had. Including putting it at the back. And a lot cheaper than changing amps/speakers/tubes.
If you do have two mics and your own mixer available, you could use them live to give very different sounds on different songs. I don't know if anyone does that live, they certainly do for recording.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 17, 2017 10:47 AM
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Fil
297 posts
Apr 17, 2017
12:30 PM
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MTG, which brand/model powered speaker do you use?
Thanks
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Phil Pennington
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MindTheGap
2220 posts
Apr 17, 2017
2:09 PM
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One of those Behringer Eurolive ones, one of their smaller models in fact but it's 200W, and very loud, light, and amazing value for money. Much, much louder than I need although as I say my band isn't particularly loud. It can be stood upright, or put on a pole or stood like a wedge, to be used as a monitor. Although I don't think I'd want it to be pointing at me.
Definitely not tweedy.
I've never been in such a loud situation where I couldn't hear the 5W amp myself, being next to it. So regarding monitors that's beyond my ken.
I have read about people taking a line out from a little tube amp, and putting that into a big tube amp. I'm not quite sure of the purpose. Have you tried that SuperBee?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 17, 2017 2:11 PM
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SuperBee
4632 posts
Apr 17, 2017
6:29 PM
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Same idea as running a line out to PA I suppose. Just using a small amp as a preamp with the idea of getting a particular sound maybe.
I mean, that's one reason I can think of to run a small amp on a stage where it needs reinforcement by sending the signal to a larger amp, rather than just plugging directly into the larger amp, unless you think you can use the small amp as a monitor.
I suppose you could do it just to spread your sound from the stage, either to project itvto audience, or so you had more places you could use on a large stage.
I don't usually find a large stage presents as many problems as a tight stage, but it does give more options.
I've done the 2 amp thing in jams and rehearsals. But not small/big usually. Maybe two small amps or two mid amps. But it's just more gear to set up I think.
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MindTheGap
2221 posts
Apr 20, 2017
8:03 AM
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Has anyone heard the demo of the Quilter Microblock 45 on the main forum? You could have a couple or more speaker cabinets for different occasions. Whatever your back can stand!
Volume, portability AND tweed, for relatively little money.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5495505.htm
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 20, 2017 8:16 AM
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