SkullKid
5 posts
Feb 08, 2017
9:51 AM
|
Hey guys,
I'm a complete novice in making music and music theory, so please forgive me if this question is really stupid - which I assume it is:
So in a thread on this site I found that the the twelve harmonica keys can be arranged in the following order from lowest to highest: G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C, Db, D, Eb, E, F and F#
(http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/4126199.htm).
Now what I don't understand is that if for example you play a Bb harmonica - which is rather low on the scale - in second position, you play in the key of F and it sounds low... - but isn't F the second highest key according to the scale that I posted?! I don't quite get that, my only guess would be that the two Fs are not the same and maybe it's a matter of relation and not absolute sound - if that makes any sense.
Greetings,
Skullkid
|
MindTheGap
2101 posts
Feb 08, 2017
1:40 PM
|
No stupid questions here - this is what it's all about!
There's probably a good few ways people would like to explain it, which involve all sorts of interesting things like intervals, Circle of Fifths and so on.
Here's one. When you play a Bb harp in 2nd position, your 'root note' is indeed an F. And that's someway up the harp - 2 draw in fact. If you compare that to the 'root note' of an F-harp played in 1st position, which is 1 blow, it is the exact same note.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 08, 2017 1:43 PM
|
SuperBee
4489 posts
Feb 08, 2017
1:44 PM
|
I think you are right in what you are thinking.
If you look at a piano keyboard, the first Note is C. But so is the 8th note and the 15th note and the 22nd and the 29th and the 36th and the 43rd and the 50th and the 57th and the 64th and the 71st and the 78th and the 85th.
So there are 13 C notes on the keyboard
The first is given the name C1.
The first note on a C harp is C4
Looking at your example, the Bb harp, the first note is Bb3. That is, it's the Bb equivalent to the Bb in the 3rd Octave on the keyboard. Remember that C is the starting point. So the next note after Bb3 is B3, and the next note after that is C4.
The first note on an F harp is F4.
The first time an F appears on your Bb harp is in 2 draw.
So the notes from lowest on your Bb harp
1blow Bb3
1 draw C4
2 blow D4
2 draw F4
3 blow F4
3 draw A4
4 blow Bb 4
4 draw C5
5 blow D5
5 draw Eb5
6 blow F5
6 draw G5
On your F harp:
1 blow F4
1 draw G4
2 blow A4
2 draw C5
3 blow C5
3 draw E5
4 blow F5
4 draw G5
5 blow A5
5 draw Bb5
6 blow C6
6 draw D6
So 4 draw on your F harp is the same as 6 draw on your Bb for instance.
But if you play your F harp in F in 1st position and use the low Octave, its similiar to playing a Bb in F, second position. Except on the Bb you have some notes below the F4 you can use.
This can work the other way also.
If you play a C harp in 1st position (key C) rather than an F in 2nd (key C) your lowest note is C4 whereas in the F harp the lowest C note is C5.
I know I wrote a lot there. I hope it's not too confusing. I'd suggest mapping it out for yourself and thinking it through.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 09, 2017 4:41 AM
|
MindTheGap
2102 posts
Feb 08, 2017
1:52 PM
|
Superbee, our posts crossed. But no I don't think he was right in thinking specifically that those F's are different notes.
1 blow on the F harp = 2 draw on the Bb harp.
I guess he might be thinking that the F harp is 'very high' and shrill and the Bb is 'very low' and mellow in the sequence of keys. But in fact they overlap quite a lot.
The humble 10-hole diatonic does have a remarkable pitch range for such a little instrument (3 Octaves). Shame it doesn't actually have all the notes though!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 08, 2017 1:59 PM
|
SuperBee
4491 posts
Feb 08, 2017
3:14 PM
|
Of course you are right MTG that Skull was not right about those specific notes but I thought SK was thinking along the 'right' lines insofar as there are notes with the same name in a range of octaves; an F is a F but not all Fs are the same in all ways.
As I said above, even playing an F in low end 1st position will likely sound higher than a Bb in 2nd, due to the Bb having notes below the tonic F4, going right down to the 4th below (Bb3) whereas the F goes no lower than F4. So on the F you'd be playing in key F in the 4th Octave whereas on the Bb you're in the 4th octave and able to dip into the 3rd.
You'd really notice this if you were playing a blues pattern and following the chord changes. On the Bb harp The IV chord would be Bb and you'd be able to use the 1 Blow (Bb3) as the root and The V chord would be C, which is 1 draw (C4). On the F harp you'd be looking for Bb higher up (2 draw full step bend, Bb4 and C would be in 2 draw (C5)
All this would definitely contribute to the impression of the F being shrill. But horses for courses, a standard F harp in the right context is an excitement machine.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 09, 2017 12:32 AM
|
SuperBee
4492 posts
Feb 08, 2017
4:39 PM
|
Also, I'm wrong about the piano keyboard, but the principle is correct.
It doesn't start on C. It starts on A below C1.
And of course, I messed up by forgetting the black keys are black keys. There are not 88 white keys on a piano keyboard! Duh.
|
SuperBee
4493 posts
Feb 08, 2017
4:56 PM
|
So to correct that bit about the piano
The 4th key is C, so is the 16th, 28th, 40th, 52nd, 64th, 76th and 88th
Or, in white keys only (there are 52 white keys on an 88 key piano):
White keys number 3, 10, 17, 24, 31, 38, 45 and 52
=
C1 through to C8
Your standard C harmonica begins on C4. 10 blow on that harp is C7
On the piano that is the range of key 40 to key 76, or in white key terms, key 24 to 45
|
MindTheGap
2103 posts
Feb 08, 2017
11:48 PM
|
Yes I think that covers it! I feel a summary coming on...
1. The note F is exactly the same played on a Bb-harp in 2nd position and an F-harp in 1st position.
2. Even so, the Bb-harp appears much lower because when you actually play some music, especially typical blues phrases, the Bb-harp-in-2nd has lower notes available.
3. There are indeed different Fs - all the notes repeat in higher and lower octaves. They are designated by various notations, one being e.g. F-2, F-1, F0, F1...
4. F1 is twice the frequency of F0. So they are related mathematically/physically. To the ear they appear to be 'the same note but higher/lower'. That's our perception.
5. Middle C on the piano is C4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(musical_note)#Designation_by_octave
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 08, 2017 11:51 PM
|
MindTheGap
2104 posts
Feb 08, 2017
11:57 PM
|
I'll just add that I was always struck by how quickly the sound/feel/timbre of a harmonica note changes as you go up in pitch. To me it's much more marked than for instance a piano.
If you play a tune on the piano in Bb, then move it up to F it doesn't sound so massively different IMO, apart from being higher pitched of course. Whereas a Bb-harp and F-harp sound like different beasts. To my ears, anyway.
|
SkullKid
6 posts
Feb 09, 2017
3:24 AM
|
Thanks a lot, SuperBee and MindTheGap for your very detailed explanations - I get it now :)! I was indeed thinking along those lines but was getting desperate, since I could not find anything about this on google or youtube.
Cheers,
SkullKid
|
MindTheGap
2107 posts
Feb 09, 2017
3:35 AM
|
Great. I appreciate it's probably more of a brain-dump than you were after - but...welcome to MBH :)
It's all very simple, there was this big explosion, then the universe started to expand from a super-dense point of energy...blah blah......and that's why the 5 draw sounds a bit flat.
(EDIT I'm referring to myself, SuperBee's explanations are full of great, relevant detail)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 09, 2017 3:50 AM
|
SkullKid
7 posts
Feb 09, 2017
3:54 AM
|
Thanks!
I wasn't expecting it, but the more information the better! With each presented point (of view), the chances of me understandig it gets higher (e.g. the piano-comparison really helped). :P
So that's why the 5 draw sounds a bit flat, it all makes sense now! :O
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 09, 2017 3:55 AM
|
SuperBee
4495 posts
Feb 09, 2017
4:49 AM
|
It's like a mental condition I have and inflict on others.
im sorry, I know it often gets too much to read.
|
SkullKid
8 posts
Feb 09, 2017
5:31 AM
|
Not at all, I have the same condition, which is why I want to become a teacher! :)
|
Killa_Hertz
2201 posts
Feb 09, 2017
11:54 AM
|
Wow. I didnt expect to learn anything from this thread. But i suppose after all this time i should know better. I just now got the chance to read it all.
MTG. I am making this my new signature ... Lol. ..
"welcome to MBH ..
It's all very simple, there was this big explosion, then the universe started to expand from a super-dense point of energy...blah blah......and that's why the 5 draw sounds a bit flat."
Too funny.
Bee i had not considered that...
If i understand you correctly ... Your saying the F sounds not as high on the Bb because of the relation of the surrounding notes. Hmm. Seems obvious now ... I just never really thought about it.
See SkullKid. No dumb questions here. ESPECIALLY in the begginers forum. Thats the whole point. To share knowledge. And the best part is .... Even out of a fairly simple question comes other information .. 8^)
Infact some of the Most important things i have learned here have been in sidenotes of a conversation that evolved from a question like this.
So please feel free to ask anything.
It seems i didnt fully understand it myself. So thanks.
|
SkullKid
10 posts
Feb 10, 2017
4:19 AM
|
Thank you Killa_Hertz and you're welcome!
I found that often, when you can't find information on something that should be obvious, it is either really super obvious or not at all. I had assumed the first possibility, turns out it was actually more of the latter. :)
Greetings,
SkullKid
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 10, 2017 4:25 AM
|
Sundancer
83 posts
Feb 12, 2017
2:04 PM
|
Hey MTG & SuperBee - THANKS!! This thread has been super useful and has really augmented my music theory studies on Coursera. Wish y'all could see me sitting in my chair right now with an F harp in one hand, a Bb in the other and my iPhone in my lap with HarpNinja app opened up!
BTW - a very interesting "learning" from Coursera is the role of flats & sharps in the keys and how that is reflected in the Circle of Fifths. Add that to there being no sharps or flats between E&F and B&C - my pneumonic device is "EFfing & Blinding" - and then ya get to the Tone-Tone-Semitone-Tone-Tone-Tone-Semitone nature of major scales in every key. I'm really starting to see a method to the madness of note layout across the harp keys and how they fit into the harp positions.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Feb 12, 2017 2:30 PM
|
