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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players > Mid sized amp needed
Mid sized amp needed
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Ian
424 posts
Feb 01, 2017
4:41 PM
Righto, back on the amp train again (yawn) . This may get more traction on the main forum but I thought I'd try it here.
My vox av60, although awesome, is such a physically large amp that I have to leave it in my garage and rarely move it. This kinda means that I'm not playing it as much as I'd like.
I'm not selling it as I love the tone, but I am on the hunt for a physically smaller amp for carting around and for inside the house.
So my requirements are this.

Sub £300 (approx)
Available in the UK from new.
Smaller than 45-50cm across!
5-10watt (if tube).
Simple, ideally avoiding any complex modelling.
And of course... Good tone, not dependent on pedals.

Easy enough right? ;)

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.
SuperBee
4482 posts
Feb 03, 2017
3:38 PM
I think I'd call that a 'small-small/medium'. I don't really know what's on the UK market but I'd think the 5F1 clone amps must be an option. There are usually a swRm of these at any time. Look for 6V6 power tube, single preamp tube, either a solid state rectifier or not. 5y3 is the traditional champ rectifier but honestly I think better off without that. I haven't kept up with the VHT 6 story, but if they are still made it seems a likely suspect
Killa_Hertz
2178 posts
Feb 03, 2017
4:33 PM
Heres my list of suggestions.

Firstly the Vox AC4TV or TV Mini.
4 watt el84 12ax7 tube amp with volume, tone and wattage selection. .5watt 1.5 wstt and 4 watt. I have the mini and its pretty great for an amp that's just over $100 used. I put lower gain tube in the preamp (12au7) and its a real warm lil sucker. I would love to use it to voice a bigger amp.

Another is the VHT special 6. That's a great lil amp with tons of mods available. And you can find them used for just over $100.

Another is the Bugera V5. This is a great little amp. They sound Very good aswell. Not too pricey either. If i had to do it over again ... i would probably pick this amp over the VHT

Alt of folks got into the epiphone valve junior . I never really got it, but ... it's anther option.

There are plenty of good options for under $200.

Or on the solid state side. Check out the vox da5. Selectable wattage like the ac4tv. Battery powered on .5watt. Plugged in you can use the 1.5 watt or 5 watt option. Onboard effects and amp models. Also has a second input, so you can plug your mp3 player in and play banking tracks through it as you play.

The line out has a speaker emulator circuit built in. So when you plug headphones into it , it really sounds like the speaker breakup is still there.

Oh yea. You can play it with headphones plugged in too.

Perhaps i could demo the vox amps if you are interested.

I sold my vht unfortunately. To fund my new amp build.
SuperBee
4483 posts
Feb 04, 2017
2:08 AM
The valve junior fails the current production/available new test. But they were very popular it's true. I've still got 2. One is modded sensibly for guitar. Like as many options as reasonable while maintaining the essential character of the amp. It's a really neat thing but I don't need it. The other I first built a valve jr circuit on an eyelet board, but used a 6V6 instead of el84. Used all high quality components but running ac heaters. Then later I did the 'lone wolf' harp amp mods to it. It's pretty neat but a bit underpowered I think. Probably would do better with a different OT. I might do that if I get motivation about it. I take it to jam sometimes but they play a bit too loud for it.
I had a 3rd one which I put an 'alnicomagnet' mod kit through. That was a great amp but I sold it. The alnicomagnet (Nigel Briggs) mods are well thought out.

But yeah it's kind of a different subject. Best not go there, I think the solder fumes are bad news
MindTheGap
2096 posts
Feb 04, 2017
3:03 AM
How would you classify these? Is one output tube always = 5W? Do you call that small? What circuits/configurations/no. of tubes do you look for the next biggest - and is that medium?

I always hear about 6V6 and el84 for guitar amps - in other applications there are tubes with all kinds of outputs. Is there such a thing as a single-tube guitar amp that has a great big power tube?
Killa_Hertz
2180 posts
Feb 04, 2017
1:12 PM
Mtg generally speaking...
5w amp is going to have one preamp tube and one power tube.
It might actually be 4 watts or 8 watts, but i think 5 watt is more a generalised term.

You can use bigger tubes like a 6L6 and get more power, but you need bigger transformers.

Great BIG tubes tend to either not sound as good OR require more power and bigger transformers.

The push pull design is much more practical w hen it comes to higher wattage. However in my opinion (and many others) a little of the magic gets lost when you go push pull. The class A single ended design sounds better to me.

It's hard to describe but when comparing the two i would say one has that special "magic" and one is just missing something. They both sound great, but .....

That's why in the amp im building i went with a parallel single ended design. You have to use bigger more expensive transformers, but you can get higher wattage, keep the single ended design, and use two power tubes.

This design isn't used in production amps because wuth the single ended circuit you lose a TON of power. So its a big trade off. They are very inefficient.

So that's why push pull is far more practical.

But to answer your question. I would say
5-10 watt = small
15 -20 watt = medium
30 watt and up = big

This is probably a harp players view. Because guitar players use high gain 200 watt tube amps and such.

I could be wrong about some if this, I'm not an amp genius. So don't take any if this as gospel. This is just my understanding of it. I don't want to go spreading misinformation. 8^)
SuperBee
4484 posts
Feb 04, 2017
3:19 PM
most commercially produced se amps use one of just a few common power tubes; el84, 6v6, 6L6. Even the 6L6 seems relatively uncommon, thus all the common production se stuff is around that 5 watt mark.
There are some designs about which get more power from SE format, either using 'bigger' tubes such as the Weber kit 5F2H (uses a kt66 iirc, power in the teens), or the parallel arrangement. The Lone Wolf site has a free project design using 3 6V6 tubes in parallel.
I've built the LW valve junior project (kinda, as described above), and the single ended 6L6 amp.
From those it's clear to me Randall at Lone Wolf had a particular idea about what a harp amp should sound like. It's not a bad idea by any means. I like it but perhaps just a wee bit more focussed on 'early break up' than I want. Sounds great but doesn't really do 'clean'.

As for sizes I quite agree with you Killa, on the brackets, (but that 20-30watt zone is a bit tricky. 'Large medium' maybe.)

Just words though, it's a continuum of course.

In Australia there was a period pre about 1975 where we had a real local electronics industry which included instrument amplifiers. They did tend to use some less common tubes, perhaps because they were actually common in other applications such as TV and radio. We had a big tube factory here dating back to the 1930s but by the 70s tubes were old hat and only really used in amps. There would have been a lot of 6gw8 and 6bm8 which were used in TV sets and radios as audio amplifiers, whichvwere quite suitable for audio work but not as powerful as the tubes which came to dominate the guitar amp world.
This led to some push pull amps using 6bm8 tubes for instance, which are similiar to el84 in many ways but lower plate dissipation. So we still have a few 'small' push pull amps here, not common exactly, but they are definitely about and starting to be appreciated.

Not that any of this helps Ian.

Killa probably has nailed the list of current production stuff but keep an eye out for the importers who bring in the Chinese stuff under various names. These change all the time but I saw Will Wilde promoting something recently which is probably a British take on the Memphis mini idea. I think I've seen Matt Walklate promoting something as well
Killa_Hertz
2182 posts
Feb 04, 2017
4:47 PM
Yea, your probably right ... large medium is probably a better fit.

Also, my biggest beef with these cheap China deals is the price.

The vht is used for $150 and has 5x more options than the mem mini. But somehow they feel it warrants a $5-600 pricetag?

If people only knew the vintage gold they could find out there in that range.
Killa_Hertz
2185 posts
Feb 04, 2017
9:17 PM
Yea, i agree that medium-large probably fits better.

My biggest beef with the chinese amps is the price. A mem mini is like $600 i think. A vht special 6 or bugera v5 is like $150 used. And has tons of more options. Vht has hi power, low power, hi input, lo input, three different ohm outputs. Etc.

I mean once you get in the $600 range, your able to start looking at some serious vintage gear. Why in the hell would you buy a cardboard box full of cheap transformers caps and tubes? Just doesnt compute with me. Idk maybe I'm crazy.
MindTheGap
2097 posts
Feb 04, 2017
11:40 PM
Thanks. I guess part of the attraction of the Memphis Mini is that you can buy it from a current supplier, and it's already modified for harp. I can see the positives in that versus having to chase down vintage gear that may be a pig-in-poke, and need some know-how to either repair or mod.

That said, I would never buy one myself, the VHT looks a better option. Cheaper off the shelf, and lots of info around about how to modify it.

Since you only said 'if tube' in the OP, how about forgetting the crazy, expensive, heavy, vacuum tube business and going for a fairly simple modelling amp like the Fender Champion 40. It's light to carry, has a 'champ' setting but not hundreds of modelling options, inexpensive, loud, AND you can turn the volume up and down!

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2017 11:44 PM
SuperBee
4486 posts
Feb 05, 2017
12:34 AM
$600 doesn't get you much in this country. some cheaper secondhand stuff. maybe a hot rod deluxe, though even those are going for more like $800 it seems...i sold mine way too cheap in a swap for my ampeg jet, which is a nice vintage amp, but mine is just old and in need of constant maintenance. same with my little kriesler radio conversion.. eventually all the components are replaced, may as well be a clone.
the MM was $400 for a long time. $600 is steep. i dunno how much the harp train amps are going for. its close to $1000 australian to land that stuff here. and the market is too small to bring in a shipload. so we get custom builds (because even importing , clones; all that stuff is expensive but not that much more than importing a 'cheap' harp amp from china via USA. homebrews and mods are probably the best value, if you can DIY. and the chinese stuff forms the base for a lot of that.

i built a 5F1 champ, probably might be able to do that for 600-700 AUD now. i imported all parts from USA. the thing really sings with guitar, its a little wasted on harp imho, at least MY playing i think sounds very similiar through anything. but its much better quality than my other little amps, and maybe its gonna still be good in 60 years. i doubt my valve juniors and vibrochamp xd or even my strauss-based LW 6L6SE will still be around then, but neither will I. maybe my kids might know what it is
LSB
246 posts
Feb 05, 2017
8:53 AM
I'd also recommend the VHT special 6. Throw an Eminence RF10C or Ramrod in there and you're good to go. If you get both the amp and the speaker used it's a good sounding little rig for dirt cheap.
Ian
431 posts
Feb 05, 2017
9:11 AM
Thanks your input guys. It's confirmed two on my shortlist.
1: the Vox da5 (or the mini 5), mainly for its portability which I like the idea of. Plus it does get good reviews given it's size etc and from what I've heard online it sounds OK too.
2. The VHT. Only problem with that is getting hold of one,. Don't seem to be all that available here in the UK at the moment.
ScottK
5 posts
Feb 05, 2017
9:22 PM
Ian good luck with your search!
I've also been searching for my first amp. got lots of my info on this forum so thanks all and lots on youtube.

The mic I've tried them mostly with is a 57(if the store has one), mine is currently MIA. I was trying a 545 but it stopped working, need to fix if I can. And My 58 with the ball off. And I've tried a couple bullet mics the stores had to compare the sound.

My initial thoughts (starting from not knowing anything except it should be a tube amp. until now being relatively understanding of what I'm doing...sort of)
Iv'e tried in order Starting in mid Dec:

Peavy Classic 30 12"sp used - First amp I tried,Mixed thoughts, first try clueless , second try loved the sound at least low volume (which was really loud)

Vox AC4C1 4w 10"sp new-liked it, worked well with my mics, especially the 545 when it was working,prob too small for me, not an open back. but gave me a sense of what I might be looking for.

Fender Blues Deluxe new- Fun to try. Ya too big

Maxi Mouse battery Amp- this is mine. After watching Adams amp video and saw he used one I took mine out of dwelling on a basement shelf for 20ish years and cleaned it up, new batteries, ordered a new charger cause I couldn't find a match. been using it a little until I fix the port where the charger connects,I have the new piece, just need to solder the wires to it. Then I can keep charging it just like the old days.

Bugera V22 used- didn't like so much for some reason

Bugera V5 new- tried a couple times with various mics I liked it

A couple Vox amps new- a little larger than the AC4- liked them, a little more trebly to me than the bugera when i compared. they didn have an open back.

Fender Blues Jr. used - Nice but prob wont be getting 12"speaker

And today, What i thought was a used epi valve junior combo with 8"sp (which I have been wanting to try if one came along) at a music shop ended up being a epi valve junior head and 12" cab. Tried a couple mics with it.

Someone I connected with to do some recording has a couple old fender tubes he uses to record and says I will like the tone, not for sale but I'll try them soon.

I've listened to tons of amp reviews on YT

So unless something changes my mind with trying some other fenders I'm pretty certain Ive decided to stay in the $200 ish and under price range which is more within my means. And if I was going to try go to 5 or 600 then I should prob consider a few of the amps built for harp that are mentioned a lot, and I've listened to on YT.

So It's a strong possibility I'll order a new VHT special 6 through my local guitar center, then try it out. I like what I read and hear on YT about it. just waiting for a 15% off coupon to come out...

and I have my eye open for a used boss delay pedal

scott

Last Edited by ScottK on Feb 05, 2017 9:25 PM
Killa_Hertz
2186 posts
Feb 05, 2017
9:39 PM
Scott i believe staying under $200 is a very good idea.

Also i want to add that until your acoustic tone gets decent... You probably wont be crazy about how you sound through ANY amp. Im not sure where your skills are now ... But i know that I just started to like what I was hearing through my amps. So ive decided to goto the next level and get a better amp.

Also something to think about is volume. If you intend to play dirty chicago sound .. Your going to have trouble reaching thst level of distortion with a bigger amp. Even a 5watt can be too loud in alot of cases. Especially if your playing late or in an apartment.

Ian i think the vox da5 or mini 5 is a GREAT choice. Because of all the options i dont think you will ever regret the purchase. Even when you decide to get a tube amp .. I think you will still find it useful. I use mine still all the time. Infact it sits here next to my bed with a sonotone cm11 plugged into it.

You can plug your mp3 player or phone into it to play backing tracks or music. And also use headphones while you play ... If your trying to be super quiet.

Also the adjustable wattage is a good thing. Onboard effects arent great ... But surely usable. I like the amp models.

Also there is the vox ac4tv and tv mini. If you have the opportunity to try one of these ... They are not bad at all. And they are all tube with adjustable wattage.
ScottK
6 posts
Feb 06, 2017
4:30 AM
Killa- thanks for the suggestions. Ya I 100% agree about acoustic tone, which I've been working on especially past few months. and understand importance of this now than say a year ago. good for the reminder.

and the large amp thing- more understanding that now too.was wondering about that with the peavy classic 30 and using it with a band.

fortunately for me at home there are many times now no ones home since my kids are late teens! and our house is far enough away from others.
SuperBee
4487 posts
Feb 06, 2017
1:25 PM
I know a couple fellers locally using classic 30 in their bands. I've seen Aki Kumar use one also. They go alright. I've also done some work on one and I'm not impressed with how they are built, but they generally go ok for quite a long time before they neeed more than regular maintenance.
Ian
432 posts
Feb 06, 2017
4:43 PM
Killa. I have thought about the ac4tv before but was always put off after hearing samples on YouTube.. Always sounded a bit harsh to my ear.
Maybe with the tube swap like you said things are better.
Killa_Hertz
2191 posts
Feb 06, 2017
4:59 PM
Scott .... I didnt mean to dumb it down too much... Lol.i just wasnt positive what your experience level was. So .. Better safe than sorry. 8^)

Ian. Ac4tv. Everyone has different ears. But also sometimes there are just crappy demos. Since you know my acoustic sound ... I can demo both vox amps for you (ac4tv mini and DA5) and you can decide for yourself.

Ofcourse i may be a little bias because i own both. Everyone always thinks there amp sounds great until they get one that sounds better. Lol.
Ian
433 posts
Feb 06, 2017
5:18 PM
Killa. Sweet, thanks man.

How do you find the bugera.?
It's cheap! Although all the new ones seem to be the 'infinium' version which cuts the power to tubes if they get over saturated or something like that, which seems to defeat the purpose.

Looking forward to your vox demo!

Last Edited by Ian on Feb 06, 2017 5:24 PM
ScottK
9 posts
Feb 06, 2017
7:48 PM
Killa- no worries at all! I appreciate
your help. Basic is good for me. Though I've played harmonica for many years, I never really learned correctly and played the same for a long time so everything from holding it correctly to get a good wah sound, breathing, toungue blocking, is all new to me the past few months, and anything about amps and mics is new. Learning a lot and eager for all basic info! I don't know what level Id be considered at, maybe advanced beginner? I've sat in with friends bands a lot over the years and have a good sense of playing with others but my hope is that things go much better after improving my ability and having my own tone/sound/amp

Ian- the Bugera V5 that I've tried a couple times is available new at guitar center. That's where I've tried it. Prob musicians friend too. Not sure of overseas. I look at Craig's list in my area a lot and a couple have popped up there recently too.
Killa_Hertz
2192 posts
Feb 06, 2017
9:50 PM
Ian i never owned a bugera v5 .. But i have played through them and they sound great. Not sure about the infinium. I would suggest trying to find one used.

Guitar center is actually good for this.(if nothing else) if you look on their website and find one used they will send it to your local store. AND its covered under warranty. Better than buying off ebay and hoping it works right.

Scott K. Great man. Sounds good.

In my experience so far ... When i developed a somewhat decent tone ... It was like a door unlocked. And things suddenly became much better and easier. Its definitely a thing worth chasing. It takes time to retrain yourself to do the simple things that lead to great tone. But trust me as soon as you start reaping the benefits .... It just opens up every aspect of your playing. It also drives you to play more ... When your actually somewhat content with the sound you are hearing.
MindTheGap
2108 posts
Feb 09, 2017
4:16 AM
Before this disappears, I do have to mention my "Nux Might 8". No one else has ever mentioned it, or has even seen one I'm thinking!

I bought it at an early stage when I was looking for a small practice amp and was looking at all kinds of things including 5W tube amps. Lots of people here had recommended the Roland Micro Cube. Anyway the shop I went too had the Roland and this 'equivalent' Nux so I tried them side-by-side, also against some of the mini amps boasting a tube inside. The Nux won hands down because:

- 7 different amp models, from clean through low-gain ones thought to high-gain. They aren't labelled 'Champ' etc. but you know what they are.

- Lo/Mid/Hi Eq - and it's the separate Mid pot which is the killer for harp.

- A bit of reverb or echo.

- Runs for ages on batteries, mp3 input, line/headphone out.

The original purpose was for basic practice, but honestly for recording I keep coming back to it as being as good sounding as the little tube amp, plus more flexible.

Worth considering, even as something to rule out.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 09, 2017 4:20 AM
Ian
435 posts
Feb 14, 2017
7:02 AM
I picked up a vox mini 5 yesterday and I'm impressed so far. All the positive reviews etc seem to be true.
I've been playing around with the joyo american sound in combination with it and it's very impressive. The bass really comes out considering how small it is.
Which brings me on to a question I've never really figured out the answer to. What exactly does the voice dial do on the American sound pedal? Cheers.
MindTheGap
2112 posts
Feb 14, 2017
11:36 AM
I don't know for certain but I think it's a mid boost. That can't be the whole story, as there are already hi/mid/lo pots. But my experience with Blue Dadi (that modelling software) which had parametric EQ filtering, makes me think it's adding a lump to the freq. response in a zone that adds in that 'champy nasal sound'.

My guess is that the normal EQ pots are quite wide, overlapping ranges, and the Voice pot is a narrower bump.

I've always wanted to try a parametric EQ pedal - I reckon it'd turn your boring sm57 :) into a something of character. But I can't find a cheap one. They all seem to be hi-end studio effects.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 14, 2017 11:40 AM
Killa_Hertz
2218 posts
Feb 14, 2017
3:49 PM
Glad you like the mini 5. Its very similar to the da5 that i have (from what i am told) and aslong as your not expecting vintage tube tone ... It delivers everywhere else. Atleast for a little practice amp. The effects arent fantastic ... But they will sure do in a pinch. I use them everytime i play it .. Just because going and getting my pedalboard sort of defeats half of the perks of this amp for me. I like to just turn it on and jam. I keep it next to my bed .. So i dont even have to get up .. If the mood strikes .. Lol.

Joyo ... I too think this is a mid gain? Perhaps. Its supposed to add tweed. So i suppose you could search for what the difining characters of tweed amps are and likely dial it down a bit.


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