SkullKid
1 post
Jan 19, 2017
1:35 AM
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Hi there,
I am new to this forum and in fact new to playing the harmonica. I've been playing for 2,5 months and I've managed to learn playing simple melodies like "Row your boat", "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" and "Oh Susanna" pretty easily. I can also do all the draw bends except for hole 3, but I am getting there. Now my problem is this: Whenever I play a song that is longer than say 30-40 notes, my lower lip starts to cramp up and loosen so that i am unable to continue with the song because only chords come out at this point. I've tried for a few weeks to play more relaxed and it helps but I still run into the problem after I practice for like 10 minutes or more. Now my question is: Am I doing something wrong or is this a common stamina problem that will resolve itself with more practice, time and muscle building?
Looking forward to your answers and experiences,
Cheers
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Ian
419 posts
Jan 19, 2017
2:36 AM
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Hi, welcome to the forum.
It's partly a stamina problem but also partly technique.
The chances are, despite your best efforts, you are pursing too tightly and with the harp in the wrong position. A tight pucker normally also includes the harp being held too far out of the mouth, all in all like you are giving your grandma a kiss on the cheek .
When you put the harp in your mouth, put it in deep and angle the back side up a bit, you should still get a good single note but your mouth has to be more relaxed.
Hope that helps?
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 19, 2017 3:18 AM
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Killa_Hertz
2110 posts
Jan 19, 2017
2:52 AM
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Welcome SkullKid.
Yes, I second what Ian said. That's great advice. In the beginning we all had a tight embouchure, but the more you practice .. you start to see that you're embouchure really can open alot more than you think and still get single notes.
Instead of playing with the front of your lips (like a puckered kiss) try playing with the inside of your lips.
Heres an illustration of what you should be striving for. Hope it helps.
Harp Gear Tone Article
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 19, 2017 2:53 AM
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MindTheGap
2051 posts
Jan 19, 2017
3:57 AM
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I'd agree with that too. Every instrument seems to involve an element of discomfort that you have to endure or overcome. I've not experienced this one myself, but my son did - he described it a like holding a smile for long time.
I wonder if this might be affected by the shape or thickness of a person's lips though? Like if you have thin lips you might be predisposed to a more tense embouchure to get a seal?
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Killa_Hertz
2111 posts
Jan 19, 2017
5:35 AM
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Thats a good point too MTG. I have rather big lips. My embouchure doesnt put any stress on my jaw at all. I play with my jaw and mouth in a fully relaxed positon.
I think if you had thin lips this might be a bit harder to do, but i think most of it comes from trying to hard.
At the beginning i used to do the rather tight pucker. It didn't hurt my jaw, but it did take quite a while for me to be able to play fully relaxed. Actually just in the last couple months, my embouchure has evolved to where it is now.
It took me playing TB alot more before I realised how to play puckered wuth the harp that deep in my mouth. I had thought i had it right for a while, but it was still pushed out too far. When i would switch from tb to pucker and back, there was quite a bit of forward and back movement on the harp. Which is probably why the myth that "TB players get better Tone" exsists. But now i have learned to pucker with the harp that deep in my mouth and it really has helped my tone out alot.
You would really be surprised how big my pucker embouchure is. If i take the harp away, its about the size of a dime. And i still get clean single notes. I think tbe problem at the beginning (atleast for MD) is that, you think you embouchure must be very small to get only that one hole. You try to make it as small as that hole. But that's really not necessary.
Now when you use a wider embouchure your accuracy has to be on point because there is less room for error. And i think this is part of the reason your relaxed embouchure develops wuth the rest of your skills. Because if you tried a wider embouchure, it may not get you a single not all the time .... and you would assume that it is because the embouchure is too wide, but really its your accuracy in hitting the perfect spot all the time that is off.
Anyhow, practice really relaxing. Don't concentrate on playing a song. Just see how relaxed you can get while still using a single note. Just work on that one note .. using the inside if your lips.
Open your mouth all the way .. put the harp in until it touches the corners of your mouth. Now close your mouth on tbe harp and allow your lips to turn inside out. Light adjust down until you get a single note.
Work with that and see if it resolves your issue.
Take a look at that page for some good illustrations.
It's going to take a good bit of practice, but it should really help with everything related to your playing.
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MindTheGap
2052 posts
Jan 19, 2017
6:17 AM
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A dime! Pah, that's nothing :) I just checked, and the hole left behind is an oval about 3.5 harp-holes wide x the comb high. I guess with the harp inserted it's bigger still. Goodness knows how it all seals up.
Honestly the things we do in the name of harp!
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SkullKid
2 posts
Jan 20, 2017
2:12 AM
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Man, you guys are awesome!
It's funny: I knew all the things you recommended like putting the harp deep in your mouth, angling it a bit and relax, but as it turns out I never really did it correctly!
@ Killa_Hertz: The link that you gave really helped a lot! As I said, I knew those things before but with those cool photos it just clicked with me and I was able to relax a lot more! It's like when I was learning bending: I watched countless videos and had problems but then I just found one video that clicked with me and I could do it immediately.
One thing the page you gave adressed and that I was doing wrong was having my finger too far on the cover plate and to close to my lips. This stopped me from relaxing and angling the harp enough as I was always fighting the pressure that my hand exerterd.
You make a good point in your second post as well: I think I tried to play this relaxed before but could not always get a single note, so I tensed up because it worked better in the short run.
Another thing that helped me a lot was slowing down my playing initially to get comfortable with the more difficult parts of a song.
Just to show you guys how much you have helped me: I just played a song 10 times in a row that I could barely play one and a half times before cramping up a few days ago! Another step on the way to becoming an intermediate player. :) Thanks to you all!
I still wonder though: When I watch Adam Gussow's videos, he often does not put the harp that deeply into his mouth and he also does not tilt it. What is that all about? Different technique?
Cheers,
SkullKid
Last Edited by SkullKid on Jan 20, 2017 2:51 AM
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SuperBee
4436 posts
Jan 20, 2017
4:52 AM
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What it's about is probably like my dad used to say "there's more ways to kill a cat than just choking it with butter"
But you might notice Adam has pretty thin tone and plays kinda hard a lot of the time.
It's a legit approach.
Some guys don't tilt much. Some tilt the other way and block with the top lip. Some tongue block and tilt, some tongue block with the underside of their tongue.
Just whatever you think is the right way is gonna be your way. Before the internet people were not so much into copying the best practices and sometimes they still managed to sound ok.
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SuperBee
4437 posts
Jan 20, 2017
5:14 AM
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True story is I used to lip it gussow's way and I had very strong lips. I actually developed a veinous lake (like a varicose vein) on my lip which went away when I stopped playing that way. I'm full time tongue block since 2010 and pretty lousy at lipping now (although maybe not so bad on the high harps).
After I'd been tongue blocking for a while I went back to lipping and found I was now doing it like Purdy was demonstrating in those photos above. My lips are nowhere near as strong as they were but my tongue is kinda well-trained now
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MindTheGap
2054 posts
Jan 20, 2017
6:17 AM
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Yeah, watch out for the 'tilt the harp advice'. At various times people have proposed it for the road to tone heaven. If you watch the big boys actually playing, they do all kinds of things.
Thing is, as you tilt the harp, and indeed move it back and forth (shallower/deeper in the mouth) YOU do hear difference - because it's close to your ears and some of the sound is going through your head etc. So it's easy to convince yourself of big differences. Try recording it though.
I could believe it works for an individual, accounting for particular features.
As Bee says, in the old days people used a variety of embouchures and sounded ok. Even more, they used embouchures that you might think would give very different sounds (given all the hype about them now), and actually sounded very similar.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 20, 2017 6:27 AM
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SkullKid
3 posts
Jan 20, 2017
8:44 AM
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Oh, I see. Didn't know it was such a controversial topic, I'm just glad the tilting works for me. :)
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Killa_Hertz
2114 posts
Jan 20, 2017
12:59 PM
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Im really glad it helped. I know the feeling. It's the same way with me, i just had to find something that clicked. And this was it.
My take on tilting is this. I think people advocate tilting because Initially it helps you get the harp deeper in the mouth and really helps all that things work. But once you get the point I think tilting is less crucial. That's how it was for me anyways. Like you, tilting helped me at first .... but i don't tilt so much anymore.
Another thing is .. if your tilting DOWN i think this has a negative effect, so suggesting a small tilt up will atleast keep you mindful of the angle of your harp.
Anyways, it doesnt happen over night, but if you practice these things a few minutes a day before playing .. it will gradually become second nature.
Have a read of the winslow xerxa thread i posted. He told me to take my time and practice my tone and embouchure for a few minutes before i play. And focus on getting good tone .. and only that. And once your ear is used to hearing the harp make that sound, your brain will strive for that during practice. This will help eventually make it muscle memory.
Not too much at once, but ..... you ll find out what works for you. Just keep pushing to get better. And if your having trouble with anything, be sure to ask.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 20, 2017 1:00 PM
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SuperBee
4439 posts
Jan 20, 2017
10:27 PM
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Whereas for me when I read that piece by Brian the first time and tried it, I was like 'what?'. It just didn't do anything for me. 'How awkward is that?'
By then I'd gradually evolved an upside down, reverse tilt and was using my top lip. If you see Jon Gindick...if you can stand to watch him play when he is using harp in a rack...I can't watch him without feeling queasy but if you've never watched 'the naked lunch' you will probably be ok...but if you watch him play harp in a rack you'll see him reaching for the harp with his top lip.
If you ever watch 'Johnny Ace' demonstrating his custom mics, check him out, he is tilting the harp so holes face up. That's how I was doing it when I discovered the harpgear guide to good tone.
I tried it but it was too weird.
Not long after I began incorporating more tongue blocking and at that time I was using the underside of my tongue. When I discovered bluesharmonica.com I found david saying 'you can do what you want Abe but' I'm recommending you use the top tip. Since I decided right then I was gonna go all out tongue block, I decided to change the way I did it. A bit surprised to find it only took about an hour to get the hang of it.
Then after a while I tried lip pursing again, and like I said above, suddenly I was doing the tilt and deep embouchure without even thinking about it.
So, one time there's a click, another time there's a 'wtf?'.
Of course, I didn't stick with it, I went straight back to tongue block but at least I know. I reckon the real thing is to be able to transition from lips to tongue without having to move the harp too much. And then there's overblows.
You know, I've got harps from zajac, spiers, sleigh, and I've tried harps built by Other customisers, but the best harp I have for tongue blocked overblows is one I bought from Henry Slim about 4 or 5 years ago, a marine band D. The 6 overblow on that is like a tongue blocked blow bend, and the thing blow bends like a dream as well. Of course, back when I bought it I could neither blow bend or play an over blow, so I didn't really appreciate it. In fact I just thought it was annoying because it choked on hole 4 when I was playing loud, so I opened it up. Otherwise I'd probably get the 4 overblow as well.
I think Henry got too busy to build harps which is a shame because he had the knack
Sorry, I've strayed OT but I'm distracting myself from gardening...must get back out there, side dressing the veggies...
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Killa_Hertz
2116 posts
Jan 21, 2017
8:48 AM
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You know MTG, after a something nate posted yesterday, i payed a little more attention to my embouchure and it turns out that I too sometimes use the embouchure your talking about. About 3 holes wide. Apparently there is a difference between pucker and lip block, i never knew this. I think i do both. Aswell as tongue block. So 3 embouchures really. Lol. Who knew it was so complicated?
Bee i think learning Tongue Block really improved my Tone aswell. It really helped my Lip Purse become better. I got comfortable playing relaxed with the harp deep in my mouth. And like your saying ... i tried to limit the motion when transfering between lp and tb. So this leas me to learn to play puckered like Purdy is teaching here. And also may have lead my embouchure from being true pucker .. to now being more lip block.
I also payed attention yesterday to how i tilt the harp. I tend to tilt it all sorts of ways as im playing. Tilt up, tilt down, tilt sideways a bit .... it's Pretty crazy. I guess we all do things we are unaware of. But i suppose that's where recording and reflecting on what your actually doing, come in. Aslong as it sounds good, i suppose it's all good.
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MindTheGap
2055 posts
Jan 21, 2017
10:23 AM
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Killa - yes I read that too. Personally I don't go with Nate's theory that he directs a stream of air from somewhere back in his mouth - but who knows? The principle of Occam's Razor says you should go with the simplest theory, until it's proved wrong. In this case it's that the flesh of the lower lip folds in to block all but the target hole(s). Where's that MRI scanner when you need it???
Worth saying that some people do more of a conventional pucker when performing the two-hole shake (surely the king of harmonica-specific sounds no?) For that you NEED an unyielding lip-shape to slide the harp against.
However, I didn't like that technique exactly for that reason, so I do the alternative which is where you lock the harp onto the lips, use the same relaxed-lip-block embouchure as normal, and take advantage of the elasticity of the flubbery lips to move the harp holes in and out of the 'aperture'. Works for me, and guaranteed no nasty lip chafing.
As for 'tilt' - exactly! Once you've got it, you can tilt it any which way :) Maybe the tilt helps you 'get it' in first place?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 21, 2017 10:34 AM
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MindTheGap
2056 posts
Jan 21, 2017
10:26 AM
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...oh yes, do remember that even with 'Tongue Block' one side is still being blocked by your lip! Unless you are a harp playing snake.
I guess the only true TB is the U-block.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 21, 2017 10:34 AM
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SuperBee
4443 posts
Jan 21, 2017
1:27 PM
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Yeah maybe you can look at it that way. I've seen 'puckering' described as 'whistle method'. Is that on the hohner leaflets? Old hohner leaflets? Dunno.
But tongue block, yeah of course one side is the lip or inside the cheek. But playing with the tongue in contact with the harp is a much broader topic than simply how to obtain single notes.
Has anyone here had a crack at SBW2's "Downchild"? I'm studying it currently. Just have a listen to the 4 bar harp intro. There are 2 distinct tongue block elements which to me are the essence of the approach.
I've been thinking of using this tune, just the intro, as the topic for a little video/audio lesson and realised there is so much information in it that if a person doesn't have any tongue block technique it might be really difficult to teach. Anyway, I'm working on it. Speaking personally, It's one of those things where you (I) can obviously play the song you're (my) own way and that's fine but working with McElvy's transcription and the record to get what SBW2 may have actually been doing is worthwhile because of something much broader than just playing a specific song.
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Killa_Hertz
2118 posts
Jan 21, 2017
1:37 PM
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I must have missed the part about forming the air further back in the mouth. Idk alt that either. I read it as the bottom lip essentially ublocks. That's what i think I'm doing.
I also do my warbles that way. I "anchor" on the lower hole and move my head while keeping my lips attached. I used to move the harp. I found that more comfortable, but after learning to play with a mic, i realised this version was easier.
Its my opinion that the tilt does help you find it. But i could be wrong.
Its funny that I can still discover things that I'm doing that i was unaware of. I always try to be mindful of exactly what it is im doing, but still some things just slip by. I think there are likely tons of small things we all do that we are unaware of.
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MindTheGap
2058 posts
Jan 22, 2017
6:56 AM
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SuperBee - I agree, there's more to TB than just the blocking. Of course, all the effects.
I listened to Downchild for the first time today as you mentioned it. That's just the kind of thing I find way to hard to decode - all the little nuances going on at once. I don't think I'd ever do it without having a real live teacher break it down. So if you're going to do a lesson on it, I'll be watching!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 22, 2017 6:57 AM
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Killa_Hertz
2122 posts
Jan 22, 2017
8:56 AM
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Downchild doesn't SOUND that tough. BUT that's the trick with the masters they play things that seem rather simple, but there's SO much technique behind it.
Im VERY curious to see your breakdown on it.
I have a few of those books, but they are useless to me. I can figure out how to use the tabs. They are too complicated.
I really can't wait to see the lesson you come up with.
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MindTheGap
2059 posts
Jan 22, 2017
1:20 PM
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Well I think it's right up your street Killa. I spent a happy ten mins on it just now and got (to me) a pleasing result, but trying actually replicate all the bits and bobs, that's beyond me and I think always will be now. But thank you for mentioning it. It's classic into.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 22, 2017 1:59 PM
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Killa_Hertz
2128 posts
Jan 22, 2017
7:40 PM
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On my own i would likely never figure it out either, But that's why i love getting everyone's take on all those little subtleties.
I actually already know the basic notes. I play along to alot of sonny boy songs quite often. But, like you, i just can't figure out exactly what it is hes doing.
Im dying to hear any insight Bee may have. Because honestly, it drives me nuts. Lol.
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MindTheGap
2060 posts
Jan 22, 2017
11:21 PM
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I think you would actually, having heard your acoustic offering from your car. You should post more stuff.
Ha, turns out I was listening to the wrong song or the wrong version of it! I've just seen Bee's transcription. The one I found was in G, with a different intro. No problem, two for the price of one!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 22, 2017 11:35 PM
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SkullKid
4 posts
Jan 31, 2017
3:08 AM
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Hey guys,
I thought I'd post a little update on my progress: Now, I barely need to tilt the harp at all but the exaggerated tilting helped me realise that I was cramping my lips very hard! Now I play much more smoothly and I don't have any staminaproblems whatsoever. So thanks again! :)
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Killa_Hertz
2156 posts
Jan 31, 2017
3:52 AM
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Glad to hear that skullkid, that's excellent!
Don't worry about the tilting thing. If it helps .. keep doing it. Its not something you have to ever get rid of. We were just discussing why it is so often recommended. Ultimately if it works for you, go with it.
Glad to hear your doing good. Keep us updated on your progress.
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SkullKid
42 posts
Mar 10, 2017
6:38 AM
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Hey, I just want to add another thing I found that helped me greatly with my stamina and that may help other beginners also in maintaining their embrochure.
I recently noticed that when I played relatively complex parts, I didn't only move the harmonica in my hands but I also moved my lips to hit the right notes. I think this is one of the main reasons for the fact that my embrochure still collapses when playing complex stuff. When I concentrate on ONLY moving the harp with my hands and not moving my lips at all, it really helps a lot.
Cheers
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SkullKid
43 posts
Mar 10, 2017
6:38 AM
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Hey, I just want to add another thing I found that helped me greatly with my stamina and that may help other beginners also in maintaining their embrochure.
I recently noticed that when I played relatively complex parts, I didn't only move the harmonica in my hands but I also moved my lips to hit the right notes. I think this is one of the main reasons for the fact that my embrochure still collapses when playing complex stuff. When I concentrate on ONLY moving the harp with my hands and not moving my lips at all, it really helps a lot.
Cheers
Last Edited by SkullKid on Mar 10, 2017 6:39 AM
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MindTheGap
2207 posts
Mar 12, 2017
3:04 AM
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Interesting point. This may or may not be what you were doing, but there is style/technique where people move their jaw to move hole. I don't do it myself, but I've seen it described in two situations:
1. Playing fast passages. Moving the jaw they say is faster than moving the harp.
2. Playing with a mic a maintaining a strong, sealed 'cup'. That's in a David Barrett video. As I remember, he uses a combo of TB and the jaw move to play up to 7 holes (?) without moving the harp and hands at all.
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SkullKid
48 posts
Mar 16, 2017
4:03 AM
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Interesting indeed, MTG. What you are describing sounds like a "don't-try-this-at-home"-approach to a raw beginner like me, maybe it's more suited for advanced players? :P
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Chris Sachitano
8 posts
Apr 05, 2017
10:15 AM
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@Skullkid-
Keep working on moving that jaw. It will make for smoother playing as you advance. Especially if you get heavy into TB'ing and Tongue Switching.
I picked up that technique from Dave Barrett's materials somewhere; however, I would not worry to much about a "strong" seal. I suggest work on it as light as possible until you get a seal. I fought with it awhile, but this was due to uncessary tension.
A good way to practice this is start with a dipped/scooped 4' then move just the jaw to the right and pick up the 5 and move this back and forth on this in your triplet pattern eventually stopping 4' on the I think what I say is something Dwa-ee, Dwa-ee, Dwa-ee, Dwa.
Once you get the triplet feel, stretch out to incorporate the 6+ or you can pick up the 3, 3' to 2. That covers 6 holes. You can get to the 7th in no time after that.
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ME.HarpDoc
235 posts
Apr 06, 2017
3:57 PM
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Watch some of Cliffy's videos on the main forum. You'll see he moves his jaw a lot to get his notes.
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