Ian
401 posts
Dec 17, 2016
4:34 PM
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So here's my confusion.
Recent discussions on SS amps and PAs got me thinking.....
We all hear and often talk about these 'boutique' harp amps; Hand wired, carved from Sonny Terrys back porch... You know...
Then, almost (I know not all) without fail, those who use said amps then stick a load of pedals in front of them to further craft the sound.
Am I missing something here?
Isn't the point of these fancy amps to recreate, with as little mess as possible, the 'authentic' electric Chicago sound? So why muddy the mix with a string of pedals (primarily the ones to create distortion like the harp break etc) if the amp is so special in the first place?
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indigo
295 posts
Dec 17, 2016
5:15 PM
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Yeah i know what you mean i'm guilty as charged in that i own a Harptrain 10 from LW Blues and use a Harpbreak and LW delay in front of it.
Why? Well it does sound good on its own account but I like the different sounds i can get out of it via the 'break.It just makes it more flexible is the best way i can put it..I didn't buy the pedals specifically to use on the 'train as i already owned them. If they die on me i would be quite happy to drive the Amp naked.
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SuperBee
4367 posts
Dec 17, 2016
6:43 PM
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delay is a special effect. i bet delay is the number one pedal effect. you could build it in to the amp, but players like different things. so the amp gives you the base. the meat pie if you like. the delay pedal is like your tomato sauce. you and i might agree that phil maney pies are the best but i have come around to prefer masterfoods "100% australian grown tomatoes" tomato sauce and you are still pretty loyal to the rosella taste. my friend down the road prefers a bit of barbecue sauce, but we all still think phil maney pies are best because they have the flakiest pastry and the tastiest meat. If i had to buy the pie with phil maney's choice of sauce already applied, i wouldnt be getting quite what i want
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Killa_Hertz
2014 posts
Dec 17, 2016
8:45 PM
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I agree to an extent. I really like to play with alot of pedals, for the fun of it.
But recently ive been going a bit more pure. Just running Boss DM2 Delay and BBE Sonic Stomp.
However i don't have a fancy boutique amp either. If i did im not sure i would be using the Sonic stomp.
But pedals like the harpbreak allow you to keep the same sound at lower volumes or add a little more bass into your amp.
I have found that every pedal you add takes away from the tube sound. Some pedals much more than others. But i find with a full pedalboard (even in bypass) you really lose that nice pure sound. Just my opinion.
But it depends what your going for I suppose.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 17, 2016 8:46 PM
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indigo
298 posts
Dec 17, 2016
9:39 PM
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"Bee have you been on the vino today ;-) extrapolating from Amp pedals/effects to meat pies is an existential leap that only an Aussie (or Kiwi) could do.
Our local Bakery sells an 'official'(as in we have have a national competition for the best pie) gold medal seafood pie.
My mouths watering as i type.
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MindTheGap
1967 posts
Dec 18, 2016
12:46 AM
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I like a nice traditional Melton Mowbray pork pie myself.
Ian, it is a good point. One aspect is back to my old favourite of the difference between playing at home, and playing out. At home, your are free to set the breakup, tone, volume from your naked tube amp any way you like. But playing with other people you're not. I've found the Harp Break to be a useful practical tool for managing that.
Guitarists do it to though - get lovely loud, distorting tube amp and stick a Big Muff Pi in front of it. So I guess there must be something in it rather than just the practical side.
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Ian
402 posts
Dec 18, 2016
1:55 AM
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Cool, OK... So delay I agree is something very different. I suppose I'm talking about raw tone rather than 'effects' like delay or reverb.
And yes, getting tone at 'bedroom' levels is difficult without a pedal to help breakup.
But,... To Continue my quest for truth...
Have you seen that Jason Ricci video where he goes through his pedal board?
He must have a dozen pedals there and he's also playing through a very good amp.
So why the good amp? Just use the pedals...
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MindTheGap
1971 posts
Dec 18, 2016
3:46 AM
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Good point. For those making a living out of it I guess they need to do whatever they need to, without question. For us trying to work out what to do ourselves, based on what we see the pros do, it's a bit more difficult isn't it?
In contrast I remember the late Chris Michalek describing his setup in a video. He had a rich pedal board and, I think, a clean keyboard amp.
Only a guess, but it could be simply that those big tube amps are just good sounding amps, regardless of the harp-specific breakup sounds they might supply. Maybe they do dual-duty, with the pedals on they are just providing volume, with the pedals off they are available for doing the Mississippi Sax work.
You could ask him?
I saw an interview with Dan Auerbach of the Black Keys, going through his kit. He had all that - an array of vintage tube amps plus a big pedal board of effects including fuzz boxes as I remember. Because of the garage, lo-fi sound especially on their early albums, I thought it was just him, a guitar and a tube amp. It was like finding out that Seasick Steve had his diddley-bow-one-string-guitar plugged into a studio rack digital effects processor! I don't think he does btw.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 18, 2016 3:54 AM
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SuperBee
4368 posts
Dec 18, 2016
4:23 AM
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I don't know if Jason does always use that amp. I'd guess not if I had to put money on it. I reckon he probably uses it for gigs near home but I doubt he travels with it always.
Anyway, what I know about that amp is that it's a big loud and relatively clean sounding amp. I expect it has a pretty good gain structure for harp and good speakers. I have actually played through one but I didn't fiddle with the settings. I used an ultimate 57 iirc. I thought the amp sounded good but a bit more 'modern' than I am used to. That may have been the mic.
And this is one of the things with mr Ricci. He uses a 57 because as he puts it he doesn't want to be dependant on some vintage, difficult to replace kit. And with the 57 and the pedals he can approximate a range of sounds which he would otherwise need a bunch of specific vintage mics to achieve. That's one thing. Another reason he has some of those pedals is because of the way he plays and the fact he plays so fast. So some of his stuff isvto separate his notes. I don't think any amp is gonna do that. It's the specific signal-processing he is looking for.
That is also another reason he uses a 57 if you ask me, because it has a very even response across a wide range of frequencies and he makes use of that. Whereas a player like me is down in 1-6 ville 99% plus of the time and the fact my bullet doesn't reproduce the higher end quite as well isn't such an issue, he is all over the harp and wants all notes to come through clearly.
So why have a nice harp-specific tube amp? He probably liked the way it distorts, the gain structure, the way he can work around the sweet spot, the voice, and that it takes his pedal board well.
Whereas a big solid state amp might not deliver that the way he likes.
And besides that, remember the point he made about how players develop their rigs. It evolves over time, with your playing and your repertoire, as you try things or notice things and look for solutions or improvements or get curious.
Me, I use an amp I modified to break up earlier and I use onboard Reverb. I tried a harp break and sold it on quickly because it was ridiculous with that amp. I just don't need it and it only made the amp feedback at lower volume. I use a delay and lately been playing with the harp octave to provide a boost for leads. Some other pedal could do that job but I have that one. I also have an mxr univibe which I have messed around with just to get some kind of weird organ effect. That's like a sound you might consider using once a gig.
But I actually do chase a fairly 'traditional' Chicago sound, at least my idea of what that might be. Many people like a more modern sound. I don't know many folk who play my way are putting lots of pedals in front of their amps. Some maybe but I'd say they are either doing it with knowledge like Jason or in ignorance, inspired perhaps by what they see their heroes doing.
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Ian
403 posts
Dec 18, 2016
4:54 AM
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Interesting points boys.
Bee, your point on evolution might hold a lot of truth.
I guess having that grade A amp is the starting point and then the pedals kind worm their way in over time. Even if they sometimes take away from the sound of the amp.
Like with so much of this stuff I guess that it's not overly noticeable to the casual listener, it's just we all obsess over the funeral points of tone, whether we are amateur or professional.
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Killa_Hertz
2016 posts
Dec 18, 2016
12:26 PM
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Good point bee. I guess it depends on what sound your going for.
Mtg good point about bedroom vs gigging.
I know for a fact that ricci uses quite a few different amps. Infact every time ive seen him he had used a different amp than the previous show.
I think the pedals you use also greatly effect the sound. Some pedals/amps work better with eachother than others.
I find some pedals give a real solid state type tone to your tube amp, while others do not. So building a good sounding pedal board may not be as easy as it looks.
Ive seen jason use the HG50, Bassman, Premier Twin 8, and another amp that I'm not sure what it was.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 18, 2016 12:37 PM
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Ian
404 posts
Dec 18, 2016
3:56 PM
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@ killa. So would you say that the reasoning behind pedals for the pros is perhaps to even out the sound given the variety of amps etc that they play through.
To find consistency rather than tone perse?
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Killa_Hertz
2019 posts
Dec 18, 2016
7:07 PM
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Well i dont know if i would presume to know why pros do what they do. But effects such as the Micro Pog (for example) is for getting that specific effect. And ricci may only click it on once or twice per show just to break it up .. and play something cool or different.
But i do think mr ricci may vary some of the other effects (like the harp break) based on the room and amp he is using, yes.
Some players (like mike Fugazzi aka harp ninja) has told me that he uses his harp break like a guitar player would use a tube screamer. Meaning that he will stomp on it while playing a solo to get a phat overdriven sound. Then click it off to go back to playing comp during a verse.
But jason ricci (i believe) leaves his on all the time.
Some pros use very few pedals. (Just delay) some use a whole pedalboard like Ricci. So i guess even at the pro level, it still depends on the sound your after. And each effect can be used for a wide variety of uses.
I guess is really trial and error on what works with your specific mic/amp/style. Like i said some pedals seem to add a bit of solid state sound to your tube amp. Some pedals just dont agree with eachother. You also have to play with the order a bit. So it's really not so easy as just slapping a bunch of pedals together.
My opinion as of right now is .... for striaght ahead blues ... the K.I.S.S. meathod is probably best. Tube amp and delay and/or reverb. Figure out what works, then add things if needed. Like ifb you decide to attempt to play organ or horn parts, you may develope an effects setup for that.
Not sure if that helped or if it was just rambling nonsense .... lol..... but ... there it is.
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