I'm sure when I research the subject I'll get most of the information I'm looking for, but the Hardest Bend thread made me bring up how bad I am at playing the higher octave.
So Maybe for myself, the other readers, and for just the sake of conversation...... How would you describe proper technique on the higher octave?
It seems to me it has to be played much softer.
I never have really used much of the higher octave at all (accept for maybe the 7+ during 3rd position) But I have been trying to learn the "Can't Stop Loving You" Version of Walter's Boogie. And the beginning starts with the octaves, then a glissando up to 9 blow. 1/4 2/5 1/4 2/5 3+/6+ 4/7 4-----> 9+ 9 8 9 8 7 6 6+ 5 4 3" Something like that. Anyhow it tripps me up everytime because I can't get good solid notes up top. I always choke em out.
Is there a certain way to gap these Reeds? How would you describe the difference in feel/Technique between the lower two octaves and the higher?
Huffy breath, like fogging a window. And small mouth cavity with the tongue pushing forward.
It was a bit surprising I remember how much you had to do to make each successive note sound right (or sometimes at all) in the upper register. As a beginner you'd think that you'd just need blow into the thing and it would do all the work.
Personally I didn't find any magic in gapping - just so long as they play with even force across the range. That seemed to the do the job. Some harps I can the 10' bend, some not and there seems no rhyme or reason. 10'' is usually fine - and very important for doing the 'wild harp man' ending to songs I find.
But I'm here to tell you that in that regard, compared to a trumpet, the harp is a doddle!!!!
So no complaining, I won't tolerate it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 21, 2016 8:27 AM
"small mouth cavity with the tongue pushing forward"
Ahhhh. I see. I'll have to try that. That's likely why I choke them out so much Now. Whereas when I played them when I was a Raw Beginner I didn't seem to have such an issue. That mouth shape is the exact thing that I have been getting away from.
As a Raw Beginner I think we all play with that shape. Only minus the huffy breath. ( That I had to figure out later) As I worked to develop a Deeper Richer Tone, I started playing with the Open mouth "Yawn" style. Which is the exact opposite of what I need to be doing up top, Apparently. Hmmmm. interesting. I should find a tune to learn that's all upper Octave.
MTG on paper that does seem a little tough. The huffy foggy window breath generally goes hand in hand with the Yawn. (in my experience) It seems like it might be tough to do with the "tongue up front" technique. Just my initial thoughts. Ill give it a shot later. Let you know how it turns out.
Thanks
Edit: **LightBulb** Ill have to go back to Adams Tradebit Lesson "Upper Octave Boogie". I downloaded it a long time ago, but never really learned it. I'll bet that'll fix what ails me. I never really learned it because (up until now) I had treated the upper octave like it had cooties. Lol. But It will be perfect for this situation, I think.
I'm just feeling grumpy about the trumpet. Grumpy Trumpet. Because it's so difficult. But the difficulties and physical demands put all that stuff about harp (rounded edges, chamfered tines, anti-'tache snagging etc) into perspective!!! Harpists, you don't know how good you have it!
I found a lot of the things required on the harp were in contradiction. But it might be that it's the small mouth cavity just for the bends, and yawn elsewhere. I'll have to revisit it - there was a time when I consciously thought about these things, then it becomes 2nd nature.
Winslow talks a fair bit about fine-control of those top bends with a little tongue-generated cavity at the front of the mouth.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 21, 2016 8:53 AM
"There was a time when I consciously thought about these things, then it becomes 2nd nature."
I know What You Mean. However, I try to keep all the things I do under a microscope. Not at all times, but .. I try to really take apart my playing quite often to see where I could make things better. Even the things that have become 2nd nature. Helps to improve them.
And my worst fear is making bad habits that are so deeply ingrained that I can't change them. Lol.
I know your right about the bends. The "tongue up front cavity" thing is the only way I can get good bends. And the upper octave blow notes seem to be easier for me to hit aswell. But the draw notes are a real pain. Again I haven't really put alot of time in up there. I'm really only just starting to mess with them. But that's why I brought it up.
I figure if I chronicle some of my learning on here it will surely help someone who is having the same issues. Plus it just gives us something to talk about .... lol.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 21, 2016 10:37 AM
This is probably 'old school' approach but the way I improved on the high end was to play stuff up there. Gradually I seemed to relax and it became less worrisome. The problem with the top end is that it is not as big a sound, doesn't come through the mic as well if using a traditional grip and a cupped mic. So octaves help a lot, as does using an 'acoustic' approach which lets you use hands to enhance the resonance. But I'm yet to feel really happy about my top end work. I am at a stage where I'm happy enough with my ability to jump to the top end when playing acoustically but it's not really making the impact I want playing amplified
That's a good point - if you want to get good at it, you need to practice it a lot. These things require a combo of analysis and practice. Some things only come good by repetition. The guidelines about huffing and cavities and vowels are only that: guidelines. In reality you have to do lots of subtle things to make it work and there's no substitute for 'doing'.
Then the problem is that if you are majoring on 2nd position, you won't naturally spend much time on holes 7-10. In traditional playing that area is used for emphasis or occasional visits to add some spice. On the higher keys it's pretty shrill. A more modern style, incorporating overbends, typically does use it more often. Personally, subjectively, it's impressive but I don't think it sounds that great musically.
So I guess you have to load the dice by incorporating much more top-end playing into your practice sessions that you'd use in real playing. Alternatively, go for a modern OB style.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 21, 2016 10:50 PM
Yes, it's no doubt my interest in first position that has taken me to the top end more. Although initially it was playing folk-type melodies which got me working the high end, and the search for greater clarity and articulation is why I started tongue blocking. That's where I learned to slap I think, playing Dixie and yellow rose of Texas and pack up your troubles and playing glisses ending with a slap occasionally (accidentally) sounded really cool so I'd try to repeat it and gradually gained some control over the tongue. Several years before I began playing blues
Ah yes, play lots of first position songs. Only thing is they tend to be on the lower keyed harps don't they? So it doesn't give practice on the keys you might use more often for 2nd position.
I play first on A, G, Bb and C. D only to make a point to myself. But I think your second pos comment is true. And while cotton would go to the top in C, I only play the low end of 1st on a C harp.. which is rather like playing a low F in 2nd btw, in terms of frequency of the root note, (on the low F the b7 and 5th below would be lower) A is quite a commonly used harp in 2nd though.
No I dont think so at all. Infact that was my very plan. After typing it out and really giving it some actual thought yesterday, I realized that I have Adams "Upper Octave Boogie" tradebit lesson in my phone. I just had never really used it. So I think that will likely be the first thing I use to start learning to navigate up there.
As far as positions .... I dont play 1st pos at all, but I really should learn it. So perhaps I will kill two birds with one stone here. That sounds like a good plan.
As far as Embouchure..... I really didnt put a ton of time into it yesterday, but I did play the upper notes a bit on the way home. And I found the exact opposite to be true than we talked about yesterday. Using a C Seession Steel I did some upper draw notes using mtg's method of "tongue up front" and it actually choked out the reeds. But when I opened up the way I would normally play the bottom .... It sounded great and I had absolutely no issue. Now this could be a fluke, but I just wanted to let you know. Definitely needs further investigation ... lol.
Overblows ..... they are the next thing to work on after getting comfortable with the upper range. I dont think I'll get too carried away with it, but definitely the 6 OB I want to learn. I have found a few things I have wanted to play that I couldnt do properly without that note.
Anyways .... More woodshedding after work. Let you know how it turns out .... lol.
The high register has always been one of my greatest weaknesses, so much so that for many months, I only played low tuned harps.
I think in my case, I started learning by puckering and my tongue was naturally slightly humped (though I didn't realise it). This doesn't affect the lower holes much, but higher up that's like half engaging a bend, the notes sound more shrill and you can get squeals and such.
By contrast, playing a chord meant my tongue was flat and those same holes sound fine.
I have yet to investigate gapping in that area, but for me using gentle breath force and keeping the tongue flat and relaxed helped.
I love that opening riff on those I notes. I don't remember any particular bends there so I just tongue block them. the 'rule of thumb' I was taught was just sigh for blow notes and breathe in normally for draw notes.
I play my harps straight out of the box. I would be really surprised if Big Walter spent time gaping his harps...
@killa. Those upper draws work best for me, like you have just found out, with an open 'chamber'. In fact I find I actively pull my tongue back a fair bit to get a clear draw note. If I don't do this I'll get choked reeds or squeals depending on the harp. Blow is small though.
My main problem with the upper register is that on the whole I don't much like the sound, just too high, unless it's on a lower harp... A and under.
In hindsight, my original recipe of 'Huffy Breath, and small mouth cavity' seems to be correct but each for different things in the top octave. The first for clean unbent notes, and the second for bends.
I know what you mean, Ian. I had to learn to like it by listening to how it's used on recordings.
Hey Spyderdak, Well yeah, if you can play them the way they are why adjust. That thing with the water was apparently in a hohner publication, though I've not seen it. And then tony glover wrote about it in his book which I expect got a whole bunch of people doing it. And guys like Neil young were doing it and setting an example. I'm still not really sure how it is supposed to work. But also there seems to be an assumption that nobody worked on harps prior to say joe Filisko, and I feel like that's probably not correct. I expect it's more common knowledge these days but I'd expect any curious kid who got really serious about the instrument would work out how it works and if one broke they'd be checking it out at some point to see what's wrong and if it could be fixed. Harps jam up, reeds swing out of alignment, they go sharp or flat. Certainly the chromatic players of the 20s and 30s were working on their harps or knew people who did. Embossing was known, some called it 'the penny trick'. Personally it wouldn't surprise me if a player like big Walter worked on his harps. That was a generation of handy folks who grew up in the depression years. I know harps were relatively cheap but money was tight too. I'll never know. I've had this discussion with others. There's no knowledge of it that I've found but I don't rule it out. There's no one I know of alive who met Walter before the 60s. Paul Oscher might have an opinion, Portnoy, madcat might have some idea based on something they heard him say or their observation of his attitude. I will concede it's unlikely sonny Terry worked on his harps much
Last Edited by SuperBee on Nov 29, 2016 10:06 AM
The fellow I take lessons from doesn't for the same reason as Sonny Terry, but does send them out from time to time. I looked up a bit more about big Walter, most it really said was that he played Marine Band, so no surprise there.
yeah I ruined a few harps back then with water..dumb idea.
In general I used to shy away from the high end of the harps, though now it's pretty routine to play around up there.
On some of James Cotton high end stuff he kind of makes the spit embouchure.. more like pit, pit, pit. like the 9 down to the 8 bend etc
I've only been really getting up there a lot for blues since I got into the bends. Though I did learn tongue blocking on the high end playing those old songs. Slapping the blow notes on the top is pretty good way to get used to it. The draw notes give more trouble for me. The more I blow and bend the top end, the more it makes sense to me that the guys who really made a name doing that were inclined to blow the bends super flat rather than use the draw notes. I've noticed it's the draw notes will let you down. It's ok if you need the 10 draw but if you are doing a lot of work on 8 and 9, as happens in 1st since that is the 3rd/flat 3rd and 5th/flat 5th, that 9 draw especially is prone to giving a weak sound or even just sticking. It's generally better to just keep bending the 9 down. Also, that is more viable if the harp is a marine band tuned the old-fashioned way with the 9 draw rather flat. Because the 9 draw is relatively flat, you can bend the 9 blow down further than with a modern tuning and it probably sounds more 'in tune' than the 9 draw would anyway. If you're playing 1st that is. There's a video (is it the 'funky harp' channel?) the guy teaches 'boogie on reggae woman'. It's a good video and I recommend watching it and trying it out. But then, try subbing the flat blow bends for the draw notes in 8 and 9, the way Stevie does it. Once you get the hang of that it's pretty cool. (Btw, Not sure if FunkyHarp uses an Aflat harp, but Stevie does so to play along with him it helps to have an Ab or a pitch-shifted recording). Some neat licks in that song and it gets down to the 5hole. The second position thing? I've tried it and really just don't find it very satisfying except to throw a couple of high notes in an appropriate place. Really, I think that is the thing about the high end. It's 'surprise'. I used to hate listening to jimmy Reed songs with his high end solos. I got into them as a way to learn and now I enjoy it but I reckon there are plenty of listeners who don't like it. If you are a master like Kim Wilson who can make the top end talk, that's different. There are some great players of the high end and I do think they tend to chiefly use it in 1st position. I am completely talking out the top of my head though.
Good points. It's the blow bends that give the bluesy sound, and the draw notes are a bit straight in 2nd position. Ok for passing notes. You can lean on the blow bends in a way that you can't with the draw notes, without them flaking out.
All the players I like do the substitution technique. And I agree about the 'surprise' thing. Other instruments use it similarly - screaming high notes on the sax, or high-register trumpet. Not for playing melodies on as such.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 29, 2016 2:13 PM
Great points. I have been messing with the top end a bit more. I find the notes not so hard to play now, but still not very useful. Perhaps with time I will be able to make some use of them.
The "Surprise" angle is definitely a good one.
as far as the older guys working on their harps...
The penny trick was definitely mentioned alot. Also harps were alot better back then too.
But I also know alot of OOTB players that will try a few harps until they find a good one. So ....
I must have missed something. who is stevie, what is a penny trick and I just don;t get the surprise thing at all a note is a note, is a note, I just don't see the big surprise when playing higher notes...
The Penny Trick is were accordion players would run a penny along the reed slot, which tends to bring the edges in towards the reed. A simple form of what they now call embossing. Makes it more airtight which sharpens the response.
The surprise note thing I definitely get, and other instruments do it in spades - screaming trumpet, screaming sax etc. Typically not playing sweet melodies up there, but going for impact with a high note often with deep vibrato.
Just building on that idea - there is thing I observe where really good players play simple and strong for the most part, but then add in a something flamboyant to show they can. Whereas less good players are doing filigree things all the time. That's how I perceive it when I'm listening to other people, and when I hear my own recordings that's what I think too.
In that sense, playing the low end on the harp is the good meat and potatoes stuff, and throwing in some high-end notes and licks does the job of showing I'm not limited to the low end.
On an instrument like the piano, higher notes are part of the body of the instrument - just higher that's all. I do think on the harp the higher notes have a different flavour. And, having listened to a lot of traditional harp technique, that seems to be how they are used. As I said before, the more modern over-bend styles do unite the ends of the harp more.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2016 3:19 AM
A great example for the Surprise thing is Whammer Jammer. That 10 blow is killer.
You guys are right though, there really isn't alot to do up there that is very bluesy. What are your thoughts on modified tunings up top??
Personally I try to stay away from all the "special" tunings because I tend to think it would get very confusing switching back and forth. But for the top end .... if your not really using it anyway .... why not??
Special tunings - yuck! Ha ha. I did try tuning down the 7 hole to give a minor third once, but it never clicked. Lots of people like them though, and it's a good excuse to buy loads more harps :)
Seriously though Killa, I predict that after you found some great examples of 2nd position top-octave playing - ones that work for you - you'll take them to your heart.
But otherwise, your headed to Overbend City, Idaho. Either that or Brendan Power's tunings that let you bend the top notes. But then you're a lost man - you might as well learn to play a chromatic, chromatically. IMO it's very bluesy harp, but it's not blues harp.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2016 7:19 AM
Yea the Brendan Power tuning is the one I had in mind actually. But it seems you think along the same lines. Altered tunings seem a bit messy. I would rather work with what I've got for sure, but ..... it was just a thought.
"I predict that after you found some great examples of 2nd position top-octave playing - ones that work for you - you'll take them to your heart"
Any suggestions for songs to learn? I would like if they were 2nd position, but it's not required. I have been doing a good bit of 3rd recently. And looking for an excuse to learn 1st ..... so ... I'm game for anything aslong as the tune is good enough to go through the trouble for ..... lol.
I'm thinking some of Hortons 1st Pos stuff might be my key to unlocking up there. idk.
For me it was Charlie Musselwhite, but I don't think you are that keen.
Then there's Kim Wilson, who does lots of flourishes up there, very nice. But I also remember you expressing your reservations about his harp-god status. (Which you're wrong about BTW :) )
I think that thread about kim wilson came off wrong. I was really trying to get people to explain to me
#1 how you can tell the difference between players that play in that overdriven style.
#2 WHY Kim Wilson is so highly regarded.
Because at the time I didn't get it.
But even though that was a fairly recent thread, i have come a long way since then (believe it or not 8^) ... )
I totally understand kim wilson's status now. That thread helped alot. Also I started listening to his entire catalog rather than the few albums of his i had at the time. And A big one was ... I started playing amped alot more. And studying other amplified players more closely.
I think until you have more experience in trying to do things yourself (and failing) you cant really appreciate what others are doing.
For instance ... to the non harp player, this instrument looks easy, but we all know that's not true.
Also sometimes you need people to point certain things out (no matter how obvious they are) before you truly take notice of them.
Anyhow, i am in awe of kim now.
But still not too into Musslewhite ... lol. Im just not there yet ... chalk it up to that.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 02, 2016 11:30 AM
Re Carlos Del Junco - yes he's brilliant. Fantastic technique all over the harp and wonderful creative music. That in the modern 'joined up' style I was talking about. Not easy to do!
Sorry to say, although I think he's amazing, I'd never actually choose to put on one of his records. Purely subjective but that kind of music simply doesn't float my boat. So I don't have the motive to put in the many hours required to develop the technique, even if I were able. If you do like it though, there's the master. He's doing internet lessons now isn't he?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 03, 2016 5:22 AM
