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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
MTG .... THE DAY HAS COME!
MTG .... THE DAY HAS COME!
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Killa_Hertz
1769 posts
Sep 22, 2016
6:22 AM
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Well I felt I had to post this up. As it's been sort of a Running Joke or not so much a joke, but .... anyways.
I am back to having Lee Oskars in the Circulation!!!
As yall know, i jump around from model to model ALOT.
Currently I'm playing mostly the Marine Band Deluxe.
But I also play Session Steels, Manjis, 1847s, Special 20s, Rockets, Crossovers, 1896s, etc.
Well when I first started getting serious about playing I bought a Special 20 as my first real harp. Then I bought one of those John Lennon MS harps ( because it was on sale at guitar center for $20) Then I bought a Lee Oskar in C. I really liked the bigger holes on the Lee Oskar. I acutally liked it more than the SP20. So I went and bought my first Non C Harps. An A and a G Lee Oskar.
BTW the other 2 C harps ( the lennon and the Lee Oskar) were bought within the same month as the SP20. The reason I kept trying different models is because ever harp I got ... the 2 draw was Flat on. It was broken yall, I'm telling you! LMAO.
( im joking ofcourse)
Anyhow I played the Lee Oskars for a while. But after getting better at bending and really being able to lay into the bands and start licks on bends, and just using bends alot more in general .... I noticed that I kept getting a High Pitched Squeel from the reeds.
So I looked this up online and saw that alot of other people were having the same problem. So I kinda Phased out the LO eventually, thinking that they were flawed.
I would go back to them now and again just to noodle around on em. ( as I do with all of my harps.) But I noticed the Squeel was still there.
Anyways last week I decided to try em again. And I really like how they play now! I mean they arent my favorite, but they really do play well and they are very comfortable too. I forgot how comfortable the comb is on these. And the hole spacing/size is great too.
Anyways I believe I was partially blaming the harp for my shortcomings because the squeel is gone now. I mean if I HOLD a bend for a few seconds I get the squeel starting a little bit, but not like before. They used to squeel almost immediately. AND LOUD TOO.
Winslow always talks so highly of LO ... And every time I had brought the squeel up to winslow, he always said that he never had that problem. And infact he thought that the LO was a good harp for beginners because it would teach them how to bend properly. ( to bend without getting the squeel)
Anyways I just wanted to set the record straight. And more than anything I know MTG has been waiting for this day.... lol. So I thought i would give him a little satisfaction.
I would like to tune them to 19 limit JI. But other than that I think they are pretty darn good harps. And apparently they last forever.
These may be my new "bullet proof harps" Whenever I'm going somewhere rough, ( on the river, Camping, etc.) Or when I wanna do something to or with the harp that may not be great for it, .... I like to have a bulletproof harp. The plastic comb, crushproof, etc. If I play it with a dirty mouth I can just wash it in the River or in the sink and ... No Worries , good as new. Lol.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Sep 22, 2016 6:32 AM
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MindTheGap
1767 posts
Sep 22, 2016
2:23 PM
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Amazing! Well that's made my day, thank you :)
I do think they are prone to squealing, but technique overcomes it. I've not tweaked mine with nail varnish, wax etc.
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Killa_Hertz
1778 posts
Sep 23, 2016
4:30 AM
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LMAO. Im glad brother.
Every time I would go back and try them I would think of you saying ... "Some day your going to be in here Raving about Lee Oskars, you watch."
So when I picked it up the other day and it actually played well .... I just had to come tell you .... lol.
As a matter of fact, I went and played it pretty hard last night .... actually trying to make it squeel. And aslong as I kept my normal form, it was fine. No matter how long I held the bends, how hard i layed into them, etc.
The only time I could get it to squeel was when I purposefully shifted my throat around to set it off. So i think you and winslow are right. With proper technique it shouldnt be a problem.
Actually my Manjis would squeel at times, when I first got them. Only under held bends though. I wonder if I have a tendency to drop my form when holding a bend..... Hmmm.
Anyhow, I digress. I just wanted to get that out. Thought you would get a bit of a kick out of it. 8^)
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Sep 23, 2016 4:32 AM
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ME.HarpDoc
193 posts
Sep 23, 2016
5:50 AM
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So are you saying you adjust your form to fit the harp with LO's rather than adjusting the harp to fit your form? Doesn't sound like what you usually do, Killa :)
I think most beginners in this forum would find it easier to work on their technique on an easier harp like SP20, Harpmaster or SS.
BTW, I watched a video of Jason Ricci where he answers 26 common questions he gets. He plays almost exclusively Manjis but recommends a Harpmaster in C for beginners. Also, although he advocates learning both tongue blocking and lip pursing, he suggests learning TB first then LP. His fast licks are almost all LP. I started the opposite of this but do use both. Still find it hard to bend TB.
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Harmlessonica
245 posts
Sep 23, 2016
6:53 AM
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I often get squeals on the 3 draw bends, mostly when I tongue block. This doesn't happen on most of my harps, but it would be great if it didn't happen at all.
Any tips on getting past that would be gratefully received. I've tried to play as gentle as possible and experiment with the smallest tongue movements I can, but progress is very hit and miss so far.
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MindTheGap
1770 posts
Sep 23, 2016
9:18 AM
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As always, it's impossible to describe what to do on the harmonica. So let me try ha ha. I find that if I play with a narrowed down airstream, and am a bit tentative, that can promote a squeal. Playing with the 'open throat' feeling and 'hot air' is the cure.
Of course you can't open or close your throat! But it feels like it - I guess it's that pre-yawn thing with your larynx (Adam's Apple) dropped down.
And 'hot air' is the 'huff' thing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 23, 2016 9:44 AM
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Harmlessonica
246 posts
Sep 23, 2016
1:54 PM
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That's actually very useful advice, thanks.
I normally tend to try adjusting my tongue position, not considered the throat much. Something else to experiment with!
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SuperBee
4131 posts
Sep 23, 2016
3:59 PM
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That's refreshing to see re the throat argument. The concept of perception rather than an outright assertion 'it's the throat!'
I quizzed Dave Barrett about this years ago. He was getting involved in the MRI project at the time, and there was a heated discussion here about 'throat bending'. Those who claimed to do it were heated. I was sceptical. I use my tongue on the harp to bend, and the throat benders would claim that obviously I couldn't be using my tongue to get bends as its anchored to the harp...my contention is that the tongue is much more than that flappy bit that gets in the way of the teeth.
In the end it's just different words to describe the same thing.
I like the idea of saying 'open throat feeling'. Yes. How it feels is what matters, but you can change how it feels by how you think of what it is you are doing.
I too suffer from squealing reeds. I don't play Suzuki harps if I can help it, but I have a blues master which annoyed me by squealing 3 draw bends. Back in the day I just said 'no more' and threw it in the drawer. I've played it since and found I can control it, but I don't need to be concerned about the problem with my Hohners (usually) so why would I play the one I need to adapt for.
I do have a marine band which is inclined to squeal on a 2 draw bend. It's a D, so reed dimension is same as 4 slot from a C. This harp really, no really, should not squeal at all considering its provenance. It's worse with a Zajac comb. In fact I didn't notice the problem until I put it on a Zajac comb. It's not a fault with the comb, I tried several Zajac combs and all the same. Back on the stock comb, much less problem. So I suspect a slight warp in the comb, matching the Reedplate, which means when it's bolted to the aftermarket comb the way the reed sits in the slot is a little different.
I've had other harps with a tendency to squeal. Sometimes you can see the twist in the reed. The wax or nail polish idea sometimes helps. It's worth trying as a quick fix. Rather more time consuming to do the work on straightening Reedplates and adjusting reeds. Of course sometimes it's just embouchure and design rather than a manufacturing fault
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 25, 2016 4:01 PM
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MindTheGap
1775 posts
Sep 25, 2016
3:01 AM
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As a learner, I don't mind any visualisation, analogy or metaphor that achieves the result. But when people start being adamant that this or that thing is actually physically happening, I don't find it very helpful. And when they start claiming things that are physically impossible, and clearly not the case - that really gets in the way.
I'm going through the same thing with the trumpet. 'Tighten your lips', 'Blow faster air', 'Make the corners of your aperture tight and the middle bit soft' Yes, very good. Like with learning to bend on the harp, probably the only real advice is to play around doing odd things with your mouth, tongue, lips until you find out how to do it!
When you can do it, all the advice (k-spots and all that) make sense, but only in retrospect.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 25, 2016 6:16 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1782 posts
Sep 26, 2016
12:25 PM
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HarpDoc No I'm not saying I adjust to be able to play the Lee Oskars. What Im saying is that my technique has now advanced to the point that I dont cause the Harp to squeel like I used to. I was adjusting my playing TRYING to get the harp to squeel, but still wasn't able to it like I used to.
An example would be .... Try to play the 2 hole draw like a begginer. You just can't. Because your muscle memory wont let you ... lol. (Atleast I cant)
RE THE THROAT or TONGUE ARGUMENT
I wasnt around for the MRI thing, but I know what your talking about.
However I feel like I can bend with both my tongue and my throat. I feel like they are two different types of bends. I could be wrong. But For me when TB I feel as if im bending from farther down in the throat with all of my bends. Whereas when bending LP I bend from more in the back of the mouth. ( The K Spot, if you will)
Nobody else feels this way?
Like Jason Mentioned in that Questions Answered Video, I too feel as if when I was ONLY playing LP, I still did my 3 hole bends with my throat. And this is why I was able to do them first with little issue when first attempting TB. The other bends ( especially the 4) still dont sound 100% when I TB.
But even when playing LP I can hold my tongue down flat and bend from deep down in the throat. ( As yall were saying, this may just be a different part of my tongue.) All I know is that it IS a different spot than I normally bend with. Unless of course this part is always in effect and I am just eliminating use of the rest of the tongue.
BTW The only reason for my saying IAM doing THIS and THAT. Is to spark conversation. I'm open to anyone elses interpretation of what they think is happening.
Anyhow HarpDoc try holding your tongue flat on the bottom of your mouth. and while using the lip purse embouchure, try to bend with the throat. Or with the tongue deeper down in the throat. I'm going to go with MTG's "It FEELS like the throat." That's probably more accurate. Anyhow once you can do it LP try it TB. I'm still not great with TB bends, so BEE is probably the one to help us both with this. Lol. But that's how I've been doing My TB bends so far. I think where I lack at this point is the TB embouchure. Getting my mouth shape right, getting my tongue just right, etc. Because I find, just as with LP every minute movement has an effect, TB is the same way. I just have yet to really figure out what the perfect TB embouchure position is supposed to be. So im still experimenting.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Sep 26, 2016 12:51 PM
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MindTheGap
1778 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:40 PM
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I agree with that. Following this thread I tried to make a LO squeal, and it wouldn't. So, muscle memory in play I guess. I don't only play LOs.
Yes, TB bends definitely feel like they are coming from the throat, but I'm pretty sure it's the tongue. The tongue goes a long way back, and the throat doesn't move about much, I believe.
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SuperBee
4141 posts
Sep 26, 2016
3:06 PM
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I made an analogy joke about drinking with my hand or my elbow. No one thought it was funny. Someone even said I was ridiculous. My point was that those were both connection points between my brain and the glass. Why count one and not the other?
I can't move my elbow without moving my hand.
Similarly, people were saying oh yea of course the tongue moves when you use your throat to bend, but still insisting the throat was doing the bend. I don't even know what that means.
Actually maybe I do. It's about where you put your mind.
Awh heck. Mind bending. What have I done?
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Killa_Hertz
1788 posts
Sep 28, 2016
4:40 AM
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Well here is the what my thoughts on it were. Ofcourse I accept that they could be all wrong as can be, but here goes.
When you bend with your tongue, you are raising the back of your tongue to restrict the airflow. and this makes a bend.
So when I bend with my throat, I am closing my throat to restrict the airflow. Closing your throat would be similar to swallowing. So whatever closes when you swallow. be it your throat or whatever. THAT is what feels like is doing the bending when I bend this way.
Kind of like when I do a throat vibrato. I'm doing it from my Throat. Not in my mouth.
Ofcourse I accept that this could be further back on the tongue. and sometimes it feels that way, but other times it feels more like a different muscle is at play.
IDK these are just my general thoughts.
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MindTheGap
1791 posts
Oct 05, 2016
4:35 AM
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If you read Iceman's post on the MF about a new Rolling Stones blues album: http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/8987845/5493873.htm
...and follow the link in that for the article...
http://wzlx.cbslocal.com/2016/09/30/rolling-stones-producer-confirms-blues-album-for-december/
...and wait for all the photos to load, You'll find it's a case of Lee Oskar harps on display! Make of that what you will :)
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