MindTheGap
1630 posts
May 21, 2016
3:31 AM
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The industry standard for getting started with tube amps is that 5W, single-ended design with a loud 8" speaker. And there are few to choose from, aimed at us with some general idea that you can use them at home and take them to a jam.
But looking at SuperBee's Kriesler amp, with it's little speaker, surely that's actually what we want. From the recordings it sounds just the thing, really nice valvey, bitey sound. And something you can practice on at home. I mean a typical home, rather than a secluded lodge in a forest. Fine for those of us lucky enough to have a secluded lodge, but then you can practice with a Bassman in another room.
Perhaps have a speaker-out socket to put it into a bigger cabinet if you really do want to play it elsewhere.
A business opportunity for someone surely. In terms of the market: everyone practices at home, my guess is that only a small fraction actually go out to play.
Someone ought to step in and help out legions of aspiring harp players.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 21, 2016 3:44 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1466 posts
May 21, 2016
5:24 AM
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Yea well if they made a harp specific practice amp it would probably be as much as a good 5W. Greedy Fuckers. No not really, i know it cost alot for niche items that are not mass produced.
I had an idea while reading your post. What if you came up with a practice cab of some kind?
For instance what if i could set up my VHT at the perfect sound. It would have the perfect bite , etc., but it would be too loud. So i could then plug in my patented Practce Harp ... lol. And it would step down the volume, but keep the general tone of the amp.
I have a few ideas at the circuitry, but the point is that you wouldn't be stuck with one amp sound. If you happen to have a few different amps you could use them all for practice and get their sound at low volume.
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MindTheGap
1632 posts
May 21, 2016
9:33 AM
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Yes, plausible. I just think go straight to the target and make a little amp with a little speaker.
I've put a power attenuator on mine, but it's not the same as the speaker is barely contributing. Of course, as a business idea it's up against what people want vs what they need.
All those YT vids of someone great playing solo through a 5W amp are so compelling aren't they. What you don't see is someone banging on the ceiling with a broomstick coz they can't hear their TV in the flat below :) "Not that old riff again, play some blow notes for goodness sake!"
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 21, 2016 9:37 AM
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Fil
145 posts
May 21, 2016
10:33 AM
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So, what are the specs for the perfect practice amp? I compromised on the VOX da5 modeling amp. Half amp quiet or 5 amp loud. Models, effects, input for tracks, output for phones, metronome, rhythms. Not suited for a gig, but ok for street (battery). But, admittedly, I'd rather use something I made, just for the satisfaction.
Or, am I missing the point and this is more a philosophical discussion?
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Phil Pennington
Actually, VOX mini5.
Last Edited by Fil on May 21, 2016 11:29 AM
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Bike&Harp
4 posts
May 21, 2016
10:56 AM
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I have one of those little EH Freedom Amps. The little wooden one with a battery. I'm a guitarist so originally bought it for guitar, but i think it would work for harp as well. It's mega loud. Buskers use them a lot and EH stopped making them because the wood and workmanship for the cabinet was costing too much i think.
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MindTheGap
1634 posts
May 21, 2016
10:59 AM
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More philosophical. Of course the little modelling amps are really good. But I'm thinking of the 'first tube harp amp'. The standard path is a person first gets a little modelling amp, then hankers after the magic of the valve. What's waiting for you, to satisfy that hanker, is a champ-like amp.
But we all want to sound like Superbee playing his Kriesler don't we? Isn't that the motive behind it? Yes mics and yes technique, but it makes that sound.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 21, 2016 11:00 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1471 posts
May 21, 2016
12:39 PM
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I still fall back to the problem of a little tube amp costing too much. And being a one trick pony.
Also i think the problem with lower watt tube amps is .... to get THAT sound you have to have some cooking tubes. No?
Maybe not. I was looking at the AC4TV before i bought my da5. And i may still get one actually. The guy i sold my harp attack to bought one. And they are a tube amp with variable voltage like the da5. They also make avox mini ac4tv that is battery powered.
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Killa_Hertz
1472 posts
May 21, 2016
12:40 PM
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Here's the amp I'm talking about.
Vox AC4TV w/ Harp Brake
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MindTheGap
1635 posts
May 21, 2016
1:53 PM
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Nice, but similar thing - he's playing on the 4W setting. You can set that one to 1/4W but then the speaker will just be ticking over.
Quote from the vox website "On the 4-watt setting don’t be surprised if you get complaints from the neighbours". So there you go. Broomstick included.
At least it has the lower power setting. Certainly sounds a better option for real world practice than the full-blast-only champ clone.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 21, 2016 1:54 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1473 posts
May 21, 2016
2:45 PM
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Yea. I was wondering how it would sound at 1/4 watt. Hoping the local guitar center will get one i can play with.
An Attentuator doesn't keep the tone intact i assume? Thought that might be an option.
I may do some research and try to Make a cab that would work.
Wonder what it would sound like if i ran my vht out into my da5????
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MindTheGap
1636 posts
May 21, 2016
3:04 PM
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Watch out with that - with a tube amp you need to load the output properly or it can break it. Or rather, don't do it!
The sound is a mix of distortion all down the chain, including the speaker. So using an attenuator shouldn't affect the electrical signal very much, but the speaker isn't been overdriven like it would be if it were getting all the power.
I say the electrical signal doesn't get affected much, but the aficionados would say it does. The reason being that the attenuator is typically a simple resistive load, whereas the speaker is a complex reactive load with all sorts of dynamic effects. It's a coil so it's got inductance, and it's wobbling about in a magnetic field, so can generate emf - all kinds of interesting stuff going on. Resonance, damping.
The grown ups use loads like light bulbs and speakers sealed into muffling boxes.
When I dipped my toe into the valve-amp design waters, what struck me was how inter-dependent all the stages are compared with a SS amp. No wonder they are mysterious and organic.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 21, 2016 3:18 PM
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SuperBee
3774 posts
May 21, 2016
5:26 PM
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I 'think' I could build my Kriesler from new components quite cheaply. But, not legally. So I would need a person with the right tickets to actually build them. And in a location more suited to distribution.
I am sure the speaker is a big part of the story. Electronically it's much like any other 5 watt SE amp...about 300 volts on the plate of an EL84, a cathode-biased 12ax7 preamp. It's built 'old school' point to point, components grounded to the chassis wherever they happen to fit, a single string filament supply...all stuff that doesn't take advantage of possibilities of efficient manufacturing practice...but I suspect the speaker is the key.
It's nice in the way it's a moderate size package. I just sat it on a bedside chest of drawers yesterday, plugged in and played.
It's old though, some of it is as old as me, and I'd like to build a new one.
I think...I've been impressed by Rick Davis understanding of the market and selling that cheapo chinese champ with 3 cap changed and a speaker plus line out and a brand name. Brilliant work...insofar as he identified the niche where there was demand for a 'harmonica Blues amp' and filled it quite efficiently. And kept the price down, comparatively. Lone Wolf followed suit, with an original-design but using the budget model...and sonic pipe amps have done similar, using the same amp as Rick but with an original-design preamp.
But I do believe all these amps may be missing the 'real' market.
Expense...it's a factor, but maybe not such a big one. I know a lot of folks go with ss gear to fulfill the function of 'practice amp'. Leaving aside the question of whether one needs a practice amp (I think there's an arguable case on both sides, but I also dont think it's about logic. I think there is a lot of emotional 'thinking' here), I believe there is a market for a tube amp suitable for use playing amplified blues harp at home. And if it could be used with an extension/external speaker cab and had a line out, that would be a bonus. If it ran really quietly and was suitable for recording studio use, that would be awesome.
Repeating myself but I do think the speaker is the key...and having the capacity to plug into a 12" box means I can use the amp in a garage jam as well..
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Bike&Harp
5 posts
May 21, 2016
8:00 PM
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Killa: I have the bigger version of that mini Vox. It's the AC-4 but it's a bigger amp than that tiny one. It's got the attenuator on it and everything is the same as that one apart from it's bigger. I like the 4w setting the best. I feel the attenuated settings lose a bit of the oomph the amp possesses. That's for guitar i don't know about harp as i don't have a mike to try it. I play strictly acoustic harp, for now.
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MindTheGap
1637 posts
May 22, 2016
1:21 AM
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Superbee - Maybe 'practice amp' is the wrong label. That implies you've got other kit you play in public. I think you have a point that you don't actually need to practice at home all the time with an amp. Even if you are playing out with one.
My guess is that most people who buy and learn the harp don't play in public. It may even be a vast majority. Just like the legions of strat and tele-owning middle aged people. I have one, and I don't play it in public either.
So, the for this target audience, rather than a 'practice amp' with all it implies about compromises, or a 'small jam amp' which is too loud for a flat, it would be their 'main amp' and they'd want it to sound a good as possible in the home setting.
On the business side, I think it would be difficult thing to sell. As you say, heart rules head. For instance, it must add manufacturing cost to cover the thing in tweed, but that's what they want to buy. It adds nothing to the tone (or does it, like the combs? hahaha) but taps into to a slice of vintage.
I'm sure you (I mean you superbee) could design such a thing, and yes I bet the speaker is a key ingredient.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 22, 2016 1:24 AM
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SuperBee
3782 posts
May 22, 2016
6:27 AM
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What about that? Maybe there is a market for such an amp, as something of quality, Something in which one can take pleasure in the aesthetic. Rather than simply a budget-priced item that does the job.
Of course, it would need to also 'do the job'. But check out this:
markgilbertguitars
These are guitars my friend builds, from native timber. His machine shop is pretty good, as are his skills. I reckon he could knock out a nice little cabinet for a small combo amp. He sells those guitars internationally of course, and they go for up to $5G...an amp built to designed specs and installed in a custom timber cab...would cost a bit but a good deal simpler than building a guitar.
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MindTheGap
1640 posts
May 22, 2016
3:20 PM
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Very striking guitars there. Lovely photos too.
I guess with trying to sell kit, you can either go for mass-market and produce something to a price, or go for high quality and premium prices. Mass-manufacturing must be a nightmare.
This is all hypothetical of course, but fun to discuss.
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Killa_Hertz
1480 posts
May 23, 2016
5:12 AM
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Bike ... I know the exact Amp your refering to. Thats good to know. Thanks. I know all of the models sound fantastic for harp, but have never see an A/B demo of the Attentuator in action. I figured it would lose a bit.
But on the other hand ... it still has that tube sound, so is AC4TV Tube sound - a little bit because of the attentuator = still a damn sight better than SS amp sound ????
know what I mean? IDK. you tell me.
Bee. I think you may have nailed it. If you could make something that could produce great tube tone. While also being able to play through a small speaker. You could play this in your house and still get the tone your after.
Also this device could be used to run into your DAW or whatever for home recording.
Also this could be run out to a bigger Cab if one was so inclined.
But I think what MTG suggest is the market that is in need. For people who DONT play out. so the only amp they really need is one for home use.
Also my DA5 has a speaker emulator on the output. And it also limits the sound somehow. Meaning that if I have it set to the point of feedback and then plug my headphones into the output, Its too quiet. I have to step it up to almost full volume to get the sound I want. But this is interesting because It creates the ability to use alot more gain. And get a whole new range of sounds out of it. So ..... Idk. Just a cool option. Maybe you could have a few outputs with different options. One is a normal straight output. one has the Miced speaker emulator. Etc.
Idk just spitballing, but I think there is a huge market here if done right. Most newer players are buying amps and selling them. Then buying another, searching for the one that is usable at home. I know I did. And alot of them may never play out. But they are still spending $300 on tube amps that they only use the bottom volume range of.
MTG I cant believe you even Hinted at the idea that Tolex and Comb material are the same thing. **SMH**
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MindTheGap
1645 posts
May 23, 2016
12:19 PM
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All I'm saying is that my amp is covered in black Tolex, but I've heard other people playing amps covered in tweed and those people sound A LOT better than I do. Just sayin'. :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 23, 2016 2:17 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1486 posts
May 23, 2016
3:34 PM
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Hahaha.
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MindTheGap
1646 posts
May 24, 2016
12:47 AM
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Thank you. I try, that's the main thing.
Putting aside all the difficult business of manufacturing, marketing, selling - just imagine owning a beautifully crafted, attractive, table-top amp that you could play at home along to your favourite tracks.
Something so aesthetically pleasing, small and neat that it can be kept out on show, rather than hidden away in the 'music room', wherever that is for you.
Not a compromise amp, but crafted to sound good a low volume, good on your home recordings.
The natural order of things on MBH is generally that people are gearing up to play in front of an audience. A lot of the discussion is about that, either having a band or going to jams. But what about having like-minded friends and family round to make and listen to music? That used to be where a lot of music was made.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 24, 2016 12:51 AM
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Ian
350 posts
May 26, 2016
2:01 PM
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Can't really comment on the details as I dint know the first thing about tube amps, but as far as aesthetics go, I think one of the best looking small amps out there is the yamaha thr series. If we are talking about something that can be left on show, in the main room, without people questioning it's purpose.
Maybe something that looks like that... Like an amp head, would be a good direction to go?
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MindTheGap
1653 posts
May 27, 2016
3:26 AM
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Ian - agreed, they look great. I've not seen them before you mentioned. The blurb in fact talks about this very subject - a small, good-looking amp whose purpose is to sound good at low volume.
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Ian
355 posts
May 28, 2016
2:34 PM
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Posted this elsewhere but it's had me thinking. Haven't had the chance to try one yet, but it seems like a good option for home practice. A hybrid amp.... Some real tubes and analogue modeling.
http://www.voxamps.com/AV15
Edited to add missing link
Last Edited by Ian on May 28, 2016 3:25 PM
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SuperBee
3801 posts
May 28, 2016
3:20 PM
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Do you mean the yamaha has tubes? I thought it was all ss with 'simulated tube glow'
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Ian
356 posts
May 28, 2016
3:24 PM
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Sorry... I had added a link, it disappeared.... the vox has tubes. The Yamaha just has tube effect lighting.
http://www.voxamps.com/AV15
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SuperBee
3802 posts
May 28, 2016
5:00 PM
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Aha! The vox hybrid. Ive been trying to find some real info but so far just the sales spiel and a lot of rot from people who have very vague concepts about how amps work.
So its a valve preamp and from the schtick it seems they may be using switched circuits to deliver a range of preamp options. Which could be a good thing, if there is low-ish gain setup. Or i might be completely misunderstanding what they mean by 'analogue modelling'
I built something from an epiphone valve jr which may be along these lines...or it could be that i am imposing my ideas on the vox amp and it may actually be nothing like i am thinking
My epi has switches to change the preamp bias and gain structure...just switches between different capacitor and resistor options to emulate the gain and distortion character of various british and american amps. Not my idea, just a copycat thing. Of course the epi also is completely valve powered.
If im correct about the preamp in the vox, it could work quite well...it would be like using the lineout from preamp to PA ie valve pre to big ss power amp.
My epi however is useless for harp. Guitarists seem to like it.
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Killa_Hertz
1519 posts
May 29, 2016
11:08 AM
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If yall can't tell from alot of my posts ... im a Flea Market Junkie. There's such good stuff in there for next to nothing. I find tons of great stuff there all the time.
Anyways Yesterday I Found Kustom 12A Amp.
It has a 12AX7 Preamp and a Solid State Power Stage. Controls are Gain/Bass/Highs/Volume. With a Gain Boost Button similar to that on the VHT. And a "Shift" button, that is a Mid Boost. So it kinda sounds like a Brit style amp with it off and more Fenderish with the mid boost.
Anyhow the guy wanted $30 for it, but i beat him down to $20 and got him to throw in this lil realistic mic with a case and cable.
I couldn't test it before i bought it, so i just hoped for the best. I just tested it and not only does it work,but it sounds SWEET! I can't wait to try it with some pedals. Reverb/delay and even would really like to hear it clean with the harp attack or joyo American pumping the Tone.
The mic was garbage, but i got a case and cable out of the deal. Aswell as a nice mic shell. I like the shape of it. And who knows maybe it can be fixed.
Anyways this amp sounds great! Especially for $20. Ill let you know what i think after a little more time with it, but keep your eye out for one of these suckers on the cheap. Its pretty small, lightweight, nice warm sound, good range of clean to bluesy to crunchy tones. Its pretty nice.
Never know what you ll find at The Dirt Mall !!
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Ian
357 posts
May 29, 2016
11:41 AM
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You guys, as in you guys in America , are spoiled for places like that. In fact, spoiled in regards to all niche products.
If you can't tell, I'm jealous...
Here in the UK we just dont have places where you could pick up a tube amp for that kind of price. I mean we have charity shops, but they mostly sell old men's suits and odd shoes, and we have car boot sales, but most of the time the best thing you may find there is an Aiwa cassette player circa 1992.
I'll be in the southern states in October so I'll too be on the hunt for cool stuff!
Last Edited by Ian on May 29, 2016 11:42 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1523 posts
May 29, 2016
4:04 PM
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Haha ... sorry ian.
Check out craigslist and things like that. You can find flea markets and yardsales all over the place.
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SuperBee
3806 posts
May 29, 2016
6:46 PM
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Ah yes, similar here...op shops full of dead people's clothes. The electrical stuff goes to secondhand dealers/pawn shops, sometimes to landfill but the scavenging rights are all tied up.
The Kustom amp seems like a deal.
I saw a guy with a blog review comparing the Vox AV amps to the fender super champ hybrids as 'similiar'. They are actually completely different...the fenders use a valve power section and ss/dsp preamp.
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Ian
358 posts
May 30, 2016
8:24 AM
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Yeah, re the AV series , there doesn't seem to be anything else that is quite the same. The analogue modeling circuitry seems really it's main selling point. All of the demos online are off course guitar, and they sound good.
The shop sold the last that they had before I could try it out, so they are bringing in a new one which is reserved for me even if i don't buy it.
See, as much as I want to join with the whole full blown tube amp thing, I don't have the need for one or even anywhere to let it really rip. Things I need in an amp are low volume breakup, and even a headphone jack to be honest.
I'm not going to be gigging any time soon....
This vox AV 15 may be the compromise that I'm looking for..
And back to the OP , perhaps my perfect practice amp....
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Ian
360 posts
Jun 19, 2016
9:53 AM
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I tried the vox av15 and the blackstar HT 1 yesterday. Both were excellent, although the blackstar grabbed my attention more.
It's a 1 watt, all tube practice amp and it sounded amazing, I also liked the simplicity of it. Just a tone knob , gain, master and a reverb control. It also has headphone output and line in and out.
The vox was great and it certainly had more volume. Tone was good, nearly as good as the blackstar. Way more options for crafting the sound but it was maybe a bit too complicated.. i dunno maybe those options will be useful. Again it had headphone out and aux line in and out.
I'll need to think on this for a while....
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