MindTheGap
1587 posts
May 09, 2016
1:53 AM
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Here's a useful bit of 12-bar from a Walter Horton shuffle. Starting around 1m56s. Correct me if I'm wrong but the notes on the I chord are just 2, 2+, and the IV chord 1+, 2+ and 2. No bends required. Starting on the 2nd beat of the bar in classic blues style.
A person could use this for general purpose unobtrusive comping. Add chucks and suchlike to taste. And add whatever you like for the V chord through to the turnaround.
https://youtu.be/FQfEZd9t5YU?t=111
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 09, 2016 5:51 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1315 posts
May 09, 2016
6:54 AM
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Walter Horton Is Awesome. I need to learn more basic style riffs. Like one to fit each style of blues. Rumba, etc. Because when those type of tracks come on I've got nothing. Walter Horton is Great for licks that fit almost anywhere. But Its all deceivingly simple. Sounds like its easy to play until you try to copy it.
EDIT: I have edited this any many other posts to cut down on the thread stealing factor. 8^)
Sorry MTG I didnt mean to steal the thread. My mind got to wandering.
I love the post.
I would hope people would post more like this.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 06, 2016 6:46 AM
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MindTheGap
1590 posts
May 09, 2016
7:37 AM
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You definitely stole the thread ha! :)
...dragging it back onto the OP...
What a lovely simple idea that can be embellished too. When trying it lip pursed and TB, it seemed to me that adding rhythm the Adam Way (LP and sounding a wide chord for the chucks) might be better than the prized TB. On hole 2 you only have the (12) chord to chuck with, unless you TB out the left side, and the high chord you get sounds unusual.
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Killa_Hertz
1316 posts
May 09, 2016
12:35 PM
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MTG ... Thats what I do with the 2 123. I think its the way to go. Down the bottom anyways. for the precise reasons you said. Adam does it ALOT. and since I mostly learned from him. I do aswell. When I learned that from one of Adams videos it was HUGE for me.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 06, 2016 6:44 AM
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SuperBee
3704 posts
May 09, 2016
2:44 PM
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I haven't tried it but it seems he warbles around that I chord a bit; I guess it's the 2 blow as you say. I'm not placed to try it. Horton is very relaxed about this and I've found that even when I know the notes he plays, his actual approach defies me. I think it's his flutter technique and throat vibrato and the way he puts it all together...I know he is famously quoted as attributing it all to his hands...that might be a red herring too.
Anyway, his actual rhythm and texture is all his own, but his note choices are good and his fluency is off the show in this piece. The section you've chosen to highlight is interesting.
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MindTheGap
1592 posts
May 09, 2016
11:31 PM
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Trying to sound like Big Walter is, hmmm, tricky of course! :) But I noticed this as a nice little move that it would be useful for any beginner to have in the bag, particularly as it's a contrast to the typical bluuuuuuuz riffs first taught to beginners, at least in my own experience, e.g. something with bends on 4 3 and 2. Not that those aren't good.
kHz - yes it's interesting to reflect that there was a sense that the Adam style seemed to come from a way of emulating the hallowed TBing, but in fact might sound better. Gasp.
There's a bit less of it now, but when I first looked at MBH there was a very strong vibe around the idea that real harp players TB exclusively. And if you do LP, you'd only do it because you couldn't do something TB yet (bending or overblows or whatever).
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 09, 2016 11:36 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1320 posts
May 10, 2016
4:51 AM
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Mtg ... yea that's complete horse ---- .
Both have their own sound. So depending on what your doing, sometimes one sounds better that the other. I've brought up this specific thing (2 - 123 - 2 lp) when making my point multiple times. This way DOES sound better LP. Imo ofcourse.
Sounding like Big Walter ... impossible, but it's worth a try.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 06, 2016 6:49 AM
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SuperBee
3710 posts
May 10, 2016
5:19 AM
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I disagree there was ever a strong vibe about that. There were heated arguments but usually just a few people taking a provocative stance for the sake of...whatever their motive. The overwhelming message I took from that was that good tone came from good technique. The fabled tb tone was demonstrated to simply be a result of putting the harp in mouth deeply enough to be able to easily use the tongue. Lip players who seated the harp deep have the same tone. It's a by default thing with tb whereas it's possible to play lipped with the harp placed more shallowly, thus getting a thinner sound. But it's not an inherent difference between the techniques. Generally people argue lipping allows for faster movement, and id say only a tiny fraction of overblow players use tb to obtain the OB/od notes. Also fast articulation is seen as the domain of the lip player.
Tb is of course the way to get splits. Adam has this way of trying to mimic the slap/pull effect. To me, that's too hard, but I forgot how to play lipping it. I play tb because it's easier, but I realise it's not easy until you can do it. I think most people who find it difficult are trying too hard, but that's easy for me to say.
Anyway...I think there was just a guy who enjoyed creating scenes. But no forum founded by a lipper overblow player, and which holds Jason Ricci up as the ultimate harp player is gonna simultaneously be able to sustain a vibe that 'if you ain't blocking it you ain't really rocking it'.
I mean that statement (Denis Gruenling' motto) is how I feel ;) but I know I'm in the minority.
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MindTheGap
1593 posts
May 10, 2016
5:34 AM
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It must have been what I was reading at the time, but I definitely picked up a vibe. As you say, it was probably embodied in a heated arguments amongst a few, but as a new reader, that's what you get to see.
These things are subjective, but I remember the tone was that lippers had a case to answer! These days the discussion is more about pros and cons, as you've laid out there.
I think there was a video where Adam mentioned using LP for something, and added a sound FX of a scream, you know on the basis that saying such a thing would cause shock :) Maybe I've not remembered that right.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 10, 2016 5:52 AM
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MindTheGap
1594 posts
May 10, 2016
5:43 AM
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...on your point kHz about stealing licks, I guess there are two motives. One is to try to sound like the original, and the other is to add to your own vocabulary.
Trying to sound like the original on the harp does seem to be very difficult, I think it could be like trying to sound the same as someone else's singing - essentially not very productive, and quite an odd thing to do unless you are specifically looking to be a tribute act.
If everyone is right about the whole resonance thing, then I suppose your harp-voice might be as distinctive as your singing voice.
I have spent some effort trying to emulate the amplified sounds I hear on recordings, and that's quite interesting to do. But could be that's a waste of time too - all the discussions suggest that the old-hands just plugged whatever mic into whatever amp and use that sound. Trying to replicate that seems a bit daft.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 10, 2016 5:48 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1322 posts
May 10, 2016
12:49 PM
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I disagree. I dont think its a waste of time trying to sound like another player. Some ofcourse are easier than others. But I think at my level its a bit impossible to attempt to be EXACTLY like Big Walter, etc. But trying never hurt. You can build some serious chops trying to emulate different people. I try my damnedest to sound like SBW II. To capture all his nuances. Even though im not playing exactly like him (or whatever other artist im trying to copy), by listening harder to the playing and really hearing those nuances can really help your own playing. Even though my versions of them are not quite as good, it really helps. And you can also create your own versions of these nuances. and this can help you truly find your own Harp Voice/Style perhaps. I think any effort towards playing anything is not wasted effort.
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MindTheGap
1595 posts
May 10, 2016
1:37 PM
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Yes I see what you mean. I suppose I can break this down further into either wanting to actually sound like another player, or emulating what they do to in order learn and assimilate their playing nuances and techniques. Doing the later may not result in a person sounding like them, but they might end up making better music.
Of course, as ever, I'm not recommending anything to anyone - if someone's life goal is to sound just like SBII or whoever, I think that's great. I'm talking about my own goals: with limited practicing time available, what best to do with it.
I guess I'm reflecting the received wisdom that some of these greats are essentially uncopyable. Then it becomes a Sisyphean task! (to borrow from Superbee) :)
Yes I suppose with a hobby nothing is a waste of time, by definition, so that's the wrong phrase. But you know what I mean: some things are more or less fruitful/enjoyable.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 10, 2016 1:43 PM
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MindTheGap
1596 posts
May 10, 2016
1:53 PM
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...it's still a good question though. I'm not a singer, but I wonder if when people start to learn to sing they do it with motive or expectation to sound like someone or other they like. Or do they expect to learn the same techniques but sound distinct. I don't know.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 10, 2016 1:56 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1324 posts
May 10, 2016
11:09 PM
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I did know what you meant. I was just saying. .. anything learned isn't a waste of time. But to sound like sbwII. you have to learn many techniques that you could then make your own. Currently I've gone back to copying Ronnie.
I agree that's a good point that i ment to go back to, but it slipped thru the cracks.
I wonder if it is similar to singing? Could be. Some people can imitate or sound like certain singers. While others can't. Interesting thought.
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Killa_Hertz
1868 posts
Nov 06, 2016
7:21 AM
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I was searching for another thread and came upon this one. It was a really great post MTG that got majorly off track. (Mostly due to me, i think. 8^/ )
So i thought i would bring it back to the light.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 06, 2016 7:22 AM
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