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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
First Position?
First Position?
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HotMetal
12 posts
May 03, 2016
6:00 PM
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What does it mean when you play the harp in first position? And second and third position for that matter.
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SuperBee
3687 posts
May 03, 2016
8:13 PM
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Not sure where you're at with music theory, but see if this works for you:
Let's say you have a C harmonica.
If you play it in key of C, that's 1st position
Notes in the scale for key of C major are C D E F G A B C
Do re mi fa so la ti do
The tonic note of that scale is C. That's the tonal centre.
If you play that C harmonica in key of G, using a scale where the tonal centre is note G...that is second position, also known as cross harp.
The scale of G major is G A B C D E Fsharp G
That harp doesn't have an F sharp (except by bending the 2 draw a half step and the 9 blow a half step) so the scale you play based on note G is not a major scale. It's a scale with a flat 7th note (F instead of F sharp). Lots of blues uses a flattened 7th so that's why second position is popular for blues.
Extending this idea a bit...if you play a scale based on the 5th note of the G scale...that's D. If you play your C harp using a scale based on note D, that's 3rd position.
D major is D E F sharp G A B C sharp D
So with this one you don't have the F sharp or the C sharp. That's the 3rd note and the 7th note which are flat, and it's known as a Dorian Minor key.
That's enough for now.
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HotMetal
13 posts
May 04, 2016
5:44 AM
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Great explanation. Thanks.
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Killa_Hertz
1282 posts
May 05, 2016
6:12 AM
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Believe it or not that cleared up a few little things for me aswell. I need to get back to scales. Im finding out how important they really are. if you know the scales everything you play sounds atleast ok.
Hot Metal. Basically you use different positions for different types of songs aswell. 3rd position is used alot in Minor Blues. First position has a very square sound. if that makes sense.
Im really not the one to tell you ANYTHING about scales, but. Thought it might make you feel better that Im still confused by alot of it myself. Im going to buckle down and start back where i left off. Learning theory.
Hotmetal. Check out Michael Rubins Videos. They will explain ALOT.
Michael Rubin - Meat And Potatoes - You Tube Archive.
This will clear alot of this stuff up for you. Funky Harps channel also will touch on all the different scales. I know at the point your at in playing its probably SUPER confusing. But Dont worry about it . Baby steps. Clear Single notes, good bend control, and tone is what I worked on most. Second position blues scale should be enough for a little while. Im not discouraging learning scales. Just trying to make it not sound so hard.
How is your playing progressing otherwise? Im curious as to how your doing.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 05, 2016 6:15 AM
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HotMetal
14 posts
May 05, 2016
1:37 PM
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My playing is coming along pretty well. Thanks for asking. I am able to play clean single notes most of the time and I am learning a few scales and chords. Working on some simple tunes and enjoying it immensely.
Cheers!
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Killa_Hertz
1292 posts
May 06, 2016
1:29 AM
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Awesome man. Keep at it, it gets very interesting after you get bends down and things like that. Glad your still at it.
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6SN7
648 posts
May 08, 2016
4:59 AM
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hoochie coochie man is a great song to work on first position
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Killa_Hertz
1306 posts
May 08, 2016
5:57 AM
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I think i play it in second. 2'/2 4+ 3+ 3' 2. That's of the top of my head, but what part of the song do you play in first? Because maybe im way off .. idk
I know when i first learned it i did.... 3+ 4+ 3+ 3 3+ so maybe that's what you mean. I changed it because it sounded better the other way. But it's a lil tougher to play. Especially when the other way is so ingrained.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 08, 2016 6:00 AM
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MindTheGap
1585 posts
May 08, 2016
6:54 AM
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I think a 'traditional' way is 1st position. It doesn't affect the main riff that much IMO, but the other bits come out differently, and nicely.
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Killa_Hertz
1309 posts
May 08, 2016
7:40 AM
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What notes do you use for the main riff?
The rest i use 2nd aswell. You guys are gonna make me go back and re learn it all.
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SuperBee
3700 posts
May 08, 2016
7:54 AM
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little walter played it in 1st. ive forgotten the key, but whatever it is, just match it and play it in 1st...LW wasnt into making things difficult for himself. i dont play the song but i learned it in first one night after i saw a harp player sit in with a guitar/bass duo and the guitarist played it as a favour to the harp player...but the harp man couldnt play it...i though "that isnt gonna be me" so when i got home i put the record on and couldnt play along...until i worked out it was in first position...try and think like little walter when you play it...
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SuperBee
3701 posts
May 08, 2016
8:08 AM
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the riff is 5th below, flat 7th below, 5th below, flat 7th below, root
so in 1st position that could be -2 -3' -2 -3' +4
the original is in A (using an A harp)
Last Edited by SuperBee on May 08, 2016 8:09 AM
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MindTheGap
1586 posts
May 08, 2016
9:40 AM
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Yes that's it. I learnt it in 1st position from the record, and you can play nice 2nd position licks over the V chord.
But now I often play it in 2nd position because of doing a solo which I find easier in 2nd position. I guess I could switch harps, that would be better really.
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Killa_Hertz
1314 posts
May 09, 2016
6:29 AM
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Yes the improv and solos are easier in second for me too. But playing -2, -3', -2, -3', +4 Thats isnt 2nd position?? I thought first was mostly blow notes? All of those notes are second position Blues Scale.
Thats how I get so confused.
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MindTheGap
1589 posts
May 09, 2016
7:23 AM
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In scale degrees the riff is: 5 m7 5 m7 1, and that's how they lay out in 1st position.
Yes, these same notes occur in 2nd position too - that's the wonder of the blue scale, but they 'mean' different things against different chords.
This is why when you get I'm sure well-intentioned advice from the experienced players that learning theory isn't necessary/helpful, I disagree. You can do all this by ear of course, but you don't only have to do it by ear.
But it doesn't have to be pen-and-paper theory: if you play a major scale starting on 1B, you can just count up the notes. And when you get to 3D, that's the major 7th degree. Instead use 3' and that's your minor 7th - which is what we want here, and with most blues.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 09, 2016 7:27 AM
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SuperBee
3702 posts
May 09, 2016
2:01 PM
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Counting the notes is a good thing to do.
C harp:
Notes are C D E F G A B
(Obviously you can bend some in the low end and get a Db, F#, Bb, Ab. You can't get the Eb through bending in the lower octave but that's the only missing note from a full chromatic scale)
Consider this:
1st position major scale
C D E F G A B C
2nd position major scale
G A B C D E F# G
Only 1 different note.
Make both those scales 'mixolydian'. That is, flatten the 7th note:
1st position C Mixolydian
C D E F G A Bb C
2nd position G Mixolydian
G A B C D E F G
Now you can see the G Mixolydian is all the same notes as C Major.
How can that be? They sound different, right? But they are the same notes.
I only have 1 explanation*. It isn't the notes, it's the way you present them
(*on reflection I have more to say on that...it's not just about the notes, it's about how they relate to other things which are happening in the song, such as the chords which are being played)
Let's pretend you're playing a C harp...you should not pretend.
play 2, 3', 2, 3', +4
in 2nd position, key of G, that phrase is root, flat 3rd, root, flat 3rd, 4th.
but play 1, 2", 1, 2", 2
Still C Harp, in key of G. Those scale degrees are 5th, flat 7, 5th, flat 7, root.
Try that
Play 1 2" 1 2" 2
Then play 2 3' 2 3' +4
When you play those two phrases with the same rhythm, and no backing track, can you hear they are the same, but also different?
Obviously different because different notes. But how are they the same?
Last Edited by SuperBee on May 09, 2016 6:23 PM
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SuperBee
3703 posts
May 09, 2016
2:05 PM
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Take it a step further
Play 3", +4, 3", +4, 4
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SuperBee
3705 posts
May 09, 2016
5:07 PM
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Try another exercise. This will work well with a simple 12 bar backing track but try it without backing at first
On your c harp, play G, D. 2 draw, 4 draw. Just those 2 notes. Maybe give it a little rhythm. Count 1, 2, 3 4. Play those notes a few times, then play C, G...you can find them where you like but why not 1 blow, 2 draw. Play that a couple times, then go back to your 2 draw, 4 draw.
Notice all those notes are in the G major and the C major scale, and in the C and G Mixolydian scales.
You can also play D, A. You can either play 1 draw for D and bend the 3 draw for A, or play 4 Draw and 6 draw.
It's a good exercise to teach you to hear the 3 draw bend too. But I'll come to that.
All the notes in those 3 exercises are in the c major, g major, c Mixolydian, g mixolydian scales.
What you just played are the 1 and the 5 of the G, C, and D chords
You can hear they are the same but different, just like that Hoochie Coochie man riff is the same but different.
I am not kidding when I say...learn this last exercise, about the 1 and the 5. Teach your brain to know the 1 and the 5 of those positions. Play that, those two notes, drill it into your mind so you don't have to remember. If you still have to remember, you need to keep practicing that exercise. Get backing tracks and play root, fifth over the 1 chord sections. These are the two most important notes.
If you play all these root and 5th notes, you will hear the interval. When you play 2draw 4 draw, then 1 blow 2 draw, you hear that even though the notes are different, the relationship between them is the same.. What you are hearing is the interval. In this case it's the interval of a 5th, sometimes called a 'perfect 5th'. It's arguably the most important relationship in western music and not a bad place to start.
When you play the 1 draw, 3 draw whole step, you will be better placed to hear whether you are bending to pitch, because you're training yourself to hear that interval. So it's a valuable exercise in that way too.
And also by doing this you are learning something about 2nd, 1st and 3rd positions at the same time as learning the root and 5th for each of these 3 common chord changes.
This root and 5th knowledge is also the building block for getting your head around bass lines.. And comping behind many songs.
The first step is to know the root notes to match the chords, but this root, fifth exercise lifts the bar
Last Edited by SuperBee on May 09, 2016 6:36 PM
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SuperBee
3707 posts
May 09, 2016
5:55 PM
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Also, maybe you noticed, the 1st and 5th for all the 3 chords only consist of 4 different notes. So the relationships are kinda familial. The head of the family is the G, and the D is like G's cousin. C is like another cousin...and G D and C are all pretty tight. G is to C as D is to G. It's a bit Rock Paper Scissors, but D needs a relationship too, which is where A comes in. Not the C and G don't get along with A. In fact A is the relative minor of C major...the A minor scale is all the same notes as C major...and an A minor chord is 2/3 the same notes as a C major chord (A, C, E, rather than C, E, G)
This is kinda why those chords all work nicely together.
This 1st/5th thing...notice it's also reflected when you pick the harp to play 2nd position...the song is in A, I play my D harp, the song is in G, pick the C harp, song in E, take the A harp...so learning the 1st and 5th is just reinforced wherever you look...and the various circle of 5ths mnemonics will help you learn it too
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Mirco
407 posts
May 11, 2016
9:51 AM
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This is a great thread.
It can be confusing sometimes because there is so much overlap between different positions. I focus on what makes them unique. To simplify:
In 1st position, ANY blow notes would fit (on the I, of course). But to sound bluesy, you have to pretty much avoid that middle octave and you need to have good bends on 1-4 and 7-10.
In 2nd position, ANY draw notes would fit (again, on the I). You have a great "free" bluesy note on the 5 draw; that's the flat 7.
In 3rd position, any draw 4 or above sound great (except for the 7). You get some great free bluesy notes, which makes this a great position for raw beginners that need to sound bluesy in a hurry. There is also great stuff on holes 1-3 if you can bend well.
Nice thread. I'm going to try those exercises out. The Michael Rubin videos are excellent, but a lot of mental effort at times.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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