Killa_Hertz
1084 posts
Apr 17, 2016
12:34 AM
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True. I get what your going for. The problem is getting someone to do an A/B themselves. You would almost have to get a person who never touched a harmonica, a person who played for a few months, a person like me who has just started to get good tone, and a pro. And even then theres theres alot of variables at play as far as person to person physical ability.
I guess you could go the route of just who can play louder dB wise.
But it seems like those in the main have pretty much summed up what we have said in a long drug out round about way ... lol
The yawn, the singing note resonance, and cupping.
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MindTheGap
1487 posts
Apr 17, 2016
8:51 AM
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I still think that examining the dynamic range of a pro player would be a good thing.
I find persevering with the questions can be useful. I've learned a genuinely new thing - the cupping resonance on high notes. Have you tried it yet? It's very specific.
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Killa_Hertz
1088 posts
Apr 17, 2016
9:20 AM
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Yea ... i use the hands ALOT. Its a huge part of getting a good tone. Thats why ive been trying playing more in the sonny boy style when playing amped. And ive been trying to fix my shaker madcat up wuth a better element because it picks up hand movements.
Its such a big part of my playing that its almost limiting when playing amped.
As far as high notes specifically i don't generally play the high end of the harp, but I actually find the low end to have more ability for shaping and getting real good dynamics out of the notes. Especially 2 draw.
As far as volume specifically .. yes i think the high notes (well 6 and 7 are high notes for me) do react better volume wise to hands they really pop.
But we were trying to focus on other aspects here so i didn't really harp on it. No pun intended.
I waited a while to bring up the backpressure thing in the main forum. Im curious if it makes sense to anyone.
How do you suggest you A/B the range of a pro player. Or would you just go from how quiet they can play, up to how loud?
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 17, 2016 10:16 AM
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MindTheGap
1489 posts
Apr 17, 2016
10:51 AM
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Re volume recording, yes pretty simple IMO. Like Isaac did. Speak, play your 'normal' volume, soft, loud.
Yes hands, definitely. But the specific 'hand resonance' thing is something different to the normal thing. On the C-harp 7D (like Pat Missin demos) I found the sweet spot just as I start to open the cup, and it's really fine and precise. Makes a ringing sound like a tuning fork when you get it. That is your actual resonance.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 17, 2016 10:54 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1090 posts
Apr 17, 2016
12:42 PM
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Yea i know what you meant. Try playing amped like that. Its a trip. When you hit the mic with that small resonance hole in front of it, it boosts the signal into the mic. And when you tighten it or open it a little you lose the volume a bit as it also changes the tone.
You can do a similar thing to your tone by matching your throat to the note. That didn't rhyme on purpose.
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MindTheGap
1490 posts
Apr 17, 2016
12:59 PM
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At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I don't think they are that similar. I looked at both Pat Missin examples: hand resonance and overtone control. The hand resonance one gave a sharp boost in amplitude, the overtone control one didn't.
While I think the overtone control (using your mouth/throat to bring out harmonics) will most likely help with projection, the actual volume doesn't change much. So that is more about perception. Equally valid though.
Since it looks like no one else is going to post a sample of their range, I'll have to go with the idea that the experienced player sounds perceptibly louder because they are using overtone control, rather than just raw volume. So that's the thing to practice. I could be wrong, but got to go with something.
As it happens, I can get a few more dB (5 or so?) by going for a sharp-timbre 2D. Not sure I like that sound all the time though, and it does seem to need more tension in the mouth to bring it about.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 17, 2016 1:19 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1091 posts
Apr 17, 2016
1:07 PM
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Well the throat thing is tone and projection your right, adding the backpressure adds volume.
I'll try to post some sound clips tomorrow.
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MindTheGap
1495 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:02 PM
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Thanks to Winslow Yerxa for providing an example, which I copy here for future reference:
He says...
I did a very quick recording of me playing Draw 4 on a Hering 1923 A-harp (the closest one to hand at the moment). I started playing as softly as a I could, crescendoed to what seemed like as loud as I could make it, then returned to soft volume. I didn't attempt to use hand resonance to add volume.
Here's the sound file.
Here's a screen shot of the complete waveform; note the peak volume:
Here's the beginning of my note, magnified to show the starting volume:
You can see that I started pretty much at zero and quickly came to a starting minimum volume of about -49dB, crescendoed to about -6dB, and then tapered back down. So a dynamic range of about 43dB.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 18, 2016 11:02 PM
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MindTheGap
1496 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:13 PM
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It's not the whole picture of course, because we don't have a reference volume but it's still a useful guide IMO.
A useful feature I draw from it is how, during the loudest section, you can hear the timbre going very sharp. That's those higher harmonics being invoked: that's your overtone control in effect. To my ears it's a high pitched ringing sort of sound, not dissimilar to the ringing sound from the Pat Missin hand resonance effect, although that's on the fundamental of the (higher) note in that case.
But I don't need to trust my ears. Put through the handy spectrum analyser in Audacity, it's the fifth harmonic being enhanced, plus some 6th and 7th. At that point these harmonics are a lot louder than the fundamental.
The fundamental tone is B4 which is 491Hz, the fifth is D#7 at 2648Hz. That's two octaves + a major third higher, and right off the top of the harp. Note that the relationship between Hz and scale notes is only approximate because of the temperament issue.
Here is are the links to the Pat Missin Pages
Hand Resonance
Overtone Control
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 18, 2016 11:26 PM
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MindTheGap
1497 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:30 PM
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I've not got quite what I wanted at the outset, but what IS clear is that to get it loud, I shouldn't focus on trying to get that fundamental tone louder by itself - the rich pickings are in bringing out the overtones.
a. There's a lot more pure volume available in them.
b. They should project better (as in singing).
What it could have been was that you use mouth/throat resonance to strengthen the fundamental. But that doesn't appear to be it. So let's be clear that when people talking about resonance - this is what they mean.
Until someone demonstrates resonance on the fundamental (1st Harmonic), that's how it stands.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 19, 2016 1:34 AM
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SuperBee
3622 posts
Apr 19, 2016
2:57 AM
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I liked winslow's other post about using the hand...I did a double take on what he said about 10 blow...move the hand about a foot away...but by golly it's true. I might have a lot of fun with that...I think if I persist with playing the top end I am gonna be playing to a mic in a stand. I've actually seen Broderick smith (ex The Dingoes, signature song 'way out west') play live and doing his signature high end stuff...I remember being puzzled at how he achieved such a sound playing back off the mic the way he did...but I couldn't even bend a note on the high end with any confidence at the time...
I'm afraid recording is not very easily managed for me, so I seldom do it.
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MindTheGap
1498 posts
Apr 19, 2016
7:36 AM
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Yes it's quite a eerie effect isn't it? That's the thing I demo'd to me. I don't find lack of volume is a problem with the high end, but the resonance/shimmering/vibrato effect is a good addition. The advice I've read is to back away from the mic when playing high notes, to even up the volume.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 19, 2016 7:37 AM
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SuperBee
3625 posts
Apr 19, 2016
2:54 PM
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I notice when I record the jams that my high end playing doesn't come across. I'm playing into tightly cupped bullet mics through valve amps, and the high end stuff sounds comparatively weak on the recordings. I also recall that when I used to play F harp it would not come over strongly. Others assured me the F harp had more cut than others but this was never my experience. Even with my 60watt 410 amp, when the band was loud the F harp was very hard for me to hear.
Maybe it's the bullet mics? Or maybe it's my playing.
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MindTheGap
1514 posts
Apr 22, 2016
2:43 AM
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Winslow has kindly provided a couple more examples:
1. A Harp, 2 Draw soft/loud
2. C Harp, 6B hand resonance.
www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5492431.htm
I've added some analysis, which I've discussed with him first. Simple conclusions are:
1. Soft 2D: mostly the fundamental tone, that's a soft, ringing timbre like a flute. Loud 2D: mostly the 3rd harmonic and some 2nd and fundamental (in that order). This is a sharper timbre.
2. 6B hand resonance: Like with Pat Missin's example, it boosts the fundamental and reduces the higher harmonics.
So, that's what a skilled player does when they turn up the volume. We can copy that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 22, 2016 2:46 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1137 posts
Apr 22, 2016
3:14 AM
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Well that explains alot. I kept trying to say that volume and tone were related. But didn't know how to describe it other than that.
Im very curious on the effect of multiple other variables have on the note.
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Fil
134 posts
Apr 22, 2016
1:48 PM
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On my long walk this afternoon, SBW2's "She brought life back to the dead" played on the iPod. Somewhat relevant to this discussion, his highs seemed to recede in volume and the lows play noticeably stronger. I didn't get the impression that he was putting less effort into the highs. Could be a multitude of reasons for this, ranging from limitations of the recording technology to that's how he wanted to play it, but the effect was noticeable to me. quite sure the song key is C, harp F.
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Phil Pennington
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