Ian
319 posts
Apr 09, 2016
3:16 PM
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Ok, so I've been playing a 1847 classic in A alot recently, it's probably my go to harp at the moment, for no real reason other than its the one I travel with.
The reason for this post is that I noticed that if I play the blow 2 with a closed soft palette it sounds dull, if I play with an open soft palette it sound loud and clear.
This is the only harp that acts like this (and it's only 2 blow)
This flies in the face of what I've read about making sure you don't loose air through your nose when you play.
I guess it's something to do with chamber size and air pressure although I'm not sure.
Any ideas what going on?
This may be a question for the main forum.... But seeing we have our little crew going here I thought of you guys first! ;)
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Killa_Hertz
985 posts
Apr 09, 2016
6:43 PM
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Ive never heard of trying to not lose air through your nose. I think i tend to blow out thru my nose actually. You know how Adam does the blow air around the harp thing? Well i blow air out my nose. Idk why. Its just kind of a technique that happened naturally.
And when I do big open throat draw notes, i think i tend to open my nose aswell.
So im interested to hear what everyone else has to say. Good question.
The 2 blow is curious though.
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Bruce S
40 posts
Apr 11, 2016
1:16 AM
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I'm sure I've seen somewhere about not letting air out of your nose while playing; I'm just trying to remember where! I had laser surgery on my uvula and soft palate about 18 years ago to stop me snoring, and noticed that I leak air through my nose when playing. I also can't get a great soft palate vibrato as the tissues are stiffened up...
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MindTheGap
1452 posts
Apr 11, 2016
3:51 AM
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I'm not convinced you're right there kHz. It think the orthodox thing is to close it, maybe open it consciously to release some extra air when playing an occasional blow note after all the draw notes. Like a whale coming up for air.
If it's always open on the draw, you're taking in a lot of extra air. You can do the pre-yawn, open throat thing with a closed palette.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 11, 2016 3:52 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1005 posts
Apr 11, 2016
5:50 AM
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Damn captcha got me.
ok ill try to recreate that post.
uhhm.
Well I use it to blow out air when blowing. I can also use my nose to breathe in while blowing by using the air in my mouth. So it kinda acts independently.
I think aslong as your not trying to keep it closed by clinching, you wont sound too nasally. But Hmmm. its hard to tell whats goin on with it when I play.
Edit for Stupidity
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 11, 2016 9:36 AM
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SuperBee
3592 posts
Apr 11, 2016
5:53 AM
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first thing jimi lee did with me was 'check for leaks' and teach me to open and close my nose at will.
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MindTheGap
1455 posts
Apr 11, 2016
6:21 AM
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Getting in touch with my soft palate was one of the many, many benefits of learning harmonica :) I never thought about it before, and I wasn't really sure what it was. See also the Spleen. What I discovered or course was it's used all the time, more or less unconsciously, in normal speech (palate, not spleen).
As for nasal, if you open your throat, lower your jaw and go for a really deep sung 'aaaaawwwww' - isn't it closed then? You can tell by covering your mouth.
I contend you want it closed, except for special occasions. Happy to discuss :)
As for breathing in through the nose, pushing air out the mouth - that's the root of circular breathing isn't it? I can do that with a straw into a glass of water, but that's about it.
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 11, 2016 6:23 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1007 posts
Apr 11, 2016
6:49 AM
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I guess thats circular breathing. I cant really do it if I think about it. But if I just allow it to happen it does. Its weird.
Edited for stupidity.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 11, 2016 9:21 AM
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Ian
322 posts
Apr 11, 2016
8:50 AM
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So, some conflicting practices here....
I keep my soft palette closed throughout all of my playing unless I need to use my nose for releasing air if I'm feeling too full (and I don't want to expelled air through or around the harp).
I still can't figure out why my 2 blow on my seydel sounds dull and flat with a closed palette.
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Killa_Hertz
1011 posts
Apr 11, 2016
9:32 AM
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Ok ... so idk what the hell i was thinking before. I must have been delusional. I do the same thing. Im just playing at lunch and immediately realised i don't open my nose AT ALL!! Accept for breathing. Like MTG said "a whale coming up for air. " And i do a bit of circular breathing sometimes on the blow.
"Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain "
Earlier when i was trying to figure out what i do. I was playing very softly at my desk and i really couldn't play normally. So i must have just forced myself to do what i thought i did. Idk. That's the only explaination i can come up with.
But i edited my earlier post as to:
A) Not Confuse People
B) Hide All Traces Of My Stuipid Ideas.
But Ian as far as your original problem that I kinda lost sight of....
Have you tried checking the reed gaps and shape to see if they are different in any way. It very wierd that only one hole of one harp acts this way.
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MindTheGap
1456 posts
Apr 11, 2016
10:36 AM
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LOL But now I've got to change my post, challenging your post.
To make my position clear for posterity, the phrase to remember is: "Keep your nose closed" (unless you are about to keel over).
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Killa_Hertz
1015 posts
Apr 11, 2016
12:00 PM
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Well thats why i made it clear that my posts were changed ... so that other posts made sense. People can surely tell by context what happened here.
Idk why i do that. In a real life situation i would never say anything I'm not 100% sure of.
Online, things seem to fly out faster than i can filter them.
I need to put that in check. Lol.
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Ian
324 posts
Apr 11, 2016
1:36 PM
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Lol, those last few posts.....
Well I'll just keep experimenting on this one, to my eye the gap is the same as the other reeds and my other A harps. . It's not a problem, more a curiosity.
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SuperBee
3594 posts
Apr 11, 2016
2:07 PM
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How does the reed sit in the slot? Does it 'belly down' a bit?
I've found quite a few harps play a bit the way you describe....or play flat like go into a bend without any effort..
I've had a couple hundred harps through here over the last 18 months or so and I tune them all (or at least check the tuning) and there have been a few where (usually low reeds) they play very strangely unless I make a special effort to 'open up' when I play...I hadn't really thought about it in terms of what I'm specifically doing...anyway, it is not really common but I do believe it's usually about a sunken reed. Mainly a Seydel steel reed issue. They can be difficult to adjust because already resistant to straightening but low reeds have the longer weighted end, which is really tough
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 11, 2016 2:08 PM
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Ian
326 posts
Apr 11, 2016
4:23 PM
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I'll check that out tomorrow bee thanks for the insight. It sounds like you may be on to something.
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Tiggertoo1962
92 posts
Apr 12, 2016
1:57 PM
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PMSL, lots of entertaining stuff in just a couple of posts here. Thanks guys, after a series of night shifts I was needing this :).
Now to the content.
Sorry Ian, but since I don't even know the difference between an open and a closed soft palette, I can't help you with your original question :(.
This is something which has been doing the rounds in my own head recently though, as I've noticed that often - but with some harps more than others - I breathe in through my nose on the (predominantly) 2 and 3 draw. On blow notes I seem to be able to control it better, but on the low draws, my nose seems to have a life of its own on occasion.
@ SuperBee - "first thing jimi lee did with me was 'check for leaks' and teach me to open and close my nose at will." Short of going to egypt and seeking out a friendly camel, how do I go about learning this, and how much will it cost me to learn?
Any help in this respect would be appreciated, as I have the feeling a whole load of air is going to waste here...
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One of the last of a dying breed.
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isaacullah
3166 posts
Apr 12, 2016
2:25 PM
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Hmmm... Good question. Don't have a harp on me right now to confirm what I do, but I suspect I have it "open" at least as much as I have it "closed". I learned circular breathing many years back (when I wanted to play the dijeridoo), and I think that stuck with me. I know I definitely open my nasal passageway when I need to let some air out or take some in while playing the harp. What I don't know is if I leave it open all the time or not.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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SuperBee
3600 posts
Apr 12, 2016
2:42 PM
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Hi TT62. I'm about to head to work, but I believe I may have those early lessons on video, so I can check and maybe edit a relevant piece. But if you can open your mouth and breathe in and out through your nose and switch to breathing through your mouth, without moving your jaw or tongue...you can get in touch with what you need to do. Anchor your tongue on your lower teeth and try it. I think JL had me put a harp in my mouth and breath in through the harp and out through my nose, and vice versa...if you are breathing through nose the harp won't sound...which exercise was probably so he could tell what I was doing rather than being of particular value for me...although it was activity specific so a good exercise.
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Ian
328 posts
Apr 13, 2016
12:47 AM
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Superbee - had a look at the reed arch and I think you are right, the belly may dip a little lower than it should. I've started working on it and it's perhaps a little better.
What I've learned with these stainless steel reeds is that I have to come at them plenty times over before its even close to right.
Thanks for the insight.
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