Gary 62
126 posts
Mar 28, 2016
8:12 PM
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I've seen guys changing reeds on YT videos but it looks like you need special tools. The alternative is changing a whole plate for a new one. That doesn't make much sense for one wonky reed. What do you guys do in this case? And are there any ways to do the job without mega expense? I looked up the price of these harp toolkits and the Hohner one was totally out of order price wise.
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Killa_Hertz
858 posts
Mar 28, 2016
10:09 PM
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Ive never done it, but it seems like you could do it with a punch. And screw a new reed in. But sometimes things look easier than they are.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1349 posts
Mar 28, 2016
11:07 PM
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Gary. Great question. Have a read of this, SuperBee describes it all for us! Including links to the tools, and importantly, where to get the reeds. I've not done it yet, it's on 'the list' :)
Replacing Reeds... "Like replacing a guitar string..."
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 29, 2016 2:12 AM
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Gary 62
127 posts
Mar 29, 2016
10:45 AM
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Thanks MTG great link. Yeah you know i think it's a thing we should all be able to do at the end of the day. It doesn't make sense popping a whole new plate in because of one damged reed. Trouble is they make it so difficult! Instead of a simple way that any of us can do to change the reed, using cheap easily available tools that a lot of us probably have lying around or can get easily, we find out that it's a difficult thing to do and are discouraged from doing it because of the price of the toolkits needed. I looked at the Hohner rivet remover plier thing and it's nearly £100 in our money!!!! I mean come on! For a river extractor? I saw Tinus remove a rivet on his site with an awl and an anvil thing. I just wonder is there a cheap way to do it as i would feel as if i was being taken for a ride paying out coin like that for just a rivet extractor.
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SuperBee
3544 posts
Mar 29, 2016
1:13 PM
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I used the pliers for several years. But when I needed to work on a Lee Oskar I found the pliers wouldn't do it. I found a plate of brass and I cut a slot in it, with hacksaw, and I drilled a hole in it. Then I could lay a reedplate flat on it with rivet heads in the slot and line up the one I wanted to remove over the hole. Simple then to punch it out.
I could've done the same job with a 7mm wide strip and drilled the hole in that.
In the past Ive even used a block of wood to support the reed plate. But that's a short term solution.
Getting the old reed out shouldn't be too hard. Just keep in mind that it's easy to deform the reed plate and strive to avoid doing so.
Getting the new reed in is the critical part of the operation.
Strive for perfection.
And once you have installed the reed, the challenge is to make it play like the others. Sometimes that's easy. Sometimes it needs some tweaks.
If you want a kit, Andrew Z makes one and there's a link in that thread
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SuperBee
3545 posts
Mar 29, 2016
2:41 PM
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As for why they make it difficult...
For one thing there's no incentive to make it easy
Apart from that, it's just the process of building a cheap product...which is the conception of a harmonica. The easiest way to make one is with rivets...or it was, in the 19th century. Suzuki are spot welding.
Harrison attached all the reeds with posts and nuts, which would make them relatively easy to change. You pay for it though, and in the end you still have just a harmonica which is a silly jug band instrument with delusional tendencies.
while the big companies probably are gouging a bit with their tool prices, there are alternatives. if you dig around on the net you can come up with something that works. Getting a reed out is not hard to arrange, then fitting a new reed can be done with screws or rivets. You can buy cheap screws online. I use 1.4mm diameter. You can get them 1.5mm long if you don't want to use a nut. If you are mending blow reeds you can use the post and nut idea, and on draw reeds in hollow comb harps, but in solid combs you either have to cut a relief in the comb or use no nut and tighten the head of the screw into the reed, and cut the screw flush with the plate. If you use a 1.5 mm screw you may not have to cut it. I've seen one recently which had been repaired using a marine band deluxe cover plate bolt to attach the reed. Expensive bolt.
I use rivets now. Straightforward but easy to mess it up. Less easy to mess up with Richard Sleigh's new tool. Costs more than a rivet plier, but with that tool you just need to add a file and a reed wrench and rivets and bye bye screws and taps and cutting threads and reaming holes in reeds and needing to grow an extra hand.
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Gary 62
128 posts
Mar 29, 2016
5:18 PM
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Thanks Bee a lot of info to ponder on there. I'm nowhere near the level of expertise yet where i could do that confidently but i hope to be down the line. I do all the basic stuff gapping arcing and i'm getting reasonably good now at embossing as i've discovered how to work the slot if i do too much whereas before if i overdid it and the reed stuck i didn't have a clue.
I think most folks just buy new plates if a reed go's bad but it seems such a waste as then you have to set a whole reed plate up all over again. Plus if you've embossed it then you have to do that again. Whereas if you have the option, and the facilities needed to do it, then swapping a new reed in seems a much nicer way of doing things.
I noticed the Seydel toolkit was about £50, that's about $72 i think, cheaper than the Hohner one and basically it has all the same stuff in it!
Think my next harp will be one from Seydel.
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SuperBee
3546 posts
Mar 29, 2016
8:22 PM
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Many of the tools are generic. In fact, you'll find some of the very same tools in Seydel kit as Hohner Kit. I think the H kit is aimed more at chromatics.
Last I looked, neither kit had a reed wrench. Maybe that's changed now? It's an essential tool for reed work. It's one area where the harps vary a bit too, with different dimensions. Hohner and Seydel are fairly close but Suzuki are bigger. And not sure about LO and hohner MS. I have 3 different wrenches and don't do enough LO and MS work to remember what's what.
About the pliers...well I never use them any more and I do think the Andrew Zajac repair tools look the business. Postage from Canada and exchange rate is pretty good too, much better than US
Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 29, 2016 8:25 PM
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Halffast
31 posts
Mar 30, 2016
6:46 AM
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What is a good source to buy individual reeds ? I can't seem to find anyone that sells a single reed and the multiple packs offered cost almost as much as what I've found whole plate sets for ( ebay deals ) . Kind of defeats the purpose of replacing a reed to save $$$ if you are left with a bunch of them you might not use .
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Gary 62
129 posts
Mar 30, 2016
8:05 AM
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Well said Halffast that's what i meant when i said in one of the posts above that harmonica makers make it so difficult. Instead of being like a guitar string a harp reed is a whole other matter and as you say trying to find them individually or just getting a couple seems nigh on impossible. Although i suppose that's why the makers do it. Rather than have the facility to change one reed quickly, they want the extra revenue of you forking out unnecessary money for a whole reedplate when you only need one reed.
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SuperBee
3547 posts
Mar 30, 2016
1:40 PM
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Both the German manufacturers sell single reeds...I mean individual reeds. Seydel sell packs of 3, hohner packs of 5. They aren't expensive.
Hohner make reeds available for their 'handmade' harps...marine band and progressive series...all the same reeds. And for chromatics. They don't sell separate reeds for MS harps.
The Japanese manufacturers only sell reedplates.
It's one reason I play hohner.
Or rather, that I don't play Suzuki.
Although, I also scavenge reeds from broken harps. I have a boneyard of over 100 broken hohners and about 40 Seydel harps. Only a few suzukis. They're harder to mend too.
Maybe it's harder for folks in USA because you have to deal with that 'hohner usa' company. I deal with Germany. It's easy. I have found them helpful at hohner. Seydel too.
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Gary 62
130 posts
Mar 30, 2016
1:56 PM
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Thanks Bee. So it's better to order direct from Germany? I'm in the UK you would think they would have somewhere here i could get them from. Steve Baker who does a lot of their videos and stuff is from England so you would think he'd be pushing for good availability of spares for us in the UK. But i'll order from Germany if i need to get them. No real problem doing that. Thanks man, you're a fountain of knowledge for us guys on here with your experience! That's what i love about this forum you always get your questions answered by folks who know their stuff.
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Gary 62
131 posts
Mar 30, 2016
2:00 PM
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On another note, but related i suppose: Bee have you seen that video of Richard Sleigh using the 'Burnishing' tool? What do you think of that?
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SuperBee
3549 posts
Mar 30, 2016
2:41 PM
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Yeah 'hohner Europe' I suppose.
In the thread mtg linked to there is some discussion about how to buy reeds off the hohner online site. They're not very obvious, but once you know where to go it's easy. I get them posted to me in Australia (Tasmania) and it's about 4 euro postage...best to plan ahead and buy several packs at a time And increase postage efficiency
Richards burnishing tool video...I have but I probably didn't take it in because burnishing is just way down my list, in the 'more trouble' bucket. I must go there I suppose but I think I need to do some home maintenance first...maybe when I retire from the 9-5 I'll set up properly for full on harp customisation. For now I'm just repairs and tuning. I do have that tool Richard is using in the video though.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 30, 2016 2:47 PM
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SuperBee
3550 posts
Mar 30, 2016
2:45 PM
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Oh, when I say"they aren't expensive"...
It's all relative.
Cheap compared to buying a new harp or set of reedplates. But probably pretty expensive for what they are. I think Seydel charge 3.5 euro for a pack of 3 reeds
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Gary 62
132 posts
Mar 30, 2016
5:58 PM
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Cheers Bee that's the route i'll go when i get set up with tools to do the job. I don't want to jump into it half arsed and make a mess of it by trying to do work around's because i don't have appropriate tools. How did you buy the burnishing tool? Direct from Richard through his site? I was on his site and it said if you're interested in the tool to send him an email. Was it expensive?
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SuperBee
3553 posts
Mar 30, 2016
8:30 PM
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Is it the video where he starts off with a shim under the free end of the reed and then talks about using the 'pen tip' type tool to do the entire slot and how for short reeds it can be just as quick? Like a 2014 video?
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Gary 62
133 posts
Mar 30, 2016
9:25 PM
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Yeah Bee 2014 here it is. Tool looks good but i just use the ball end of a tuning fork like Tinus uses. I like the way he uses this tool in the video though. Looking at the gap in that slot though i've never seen a harp with a gap as wide as that! Must be like that for the demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvk0EskXDU
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SuperBee
3554 posts
Mar 30, 2016
11:05 PM
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Ah yeah that's the one. That is an effect caused by the light but it does demonstrate why it's so easy to mess up embossing. The reed is operating through the depth of the slot but the ridge of brass we create with our tools is just below the top of the slot and nowhere near as deep, so it's easy to look at it from an angle which allows light to pass, even though the ridge may be interfering with the movement of the reed. I used to have this problem with burrs on reed or slot, where I just couldn't see where the interference was happening. Often when you tune a reed with a file you can create a burr. Or when shaping a reed...a common situation might be when using a shim and sliding it right up to the root of the reed..it's very easy to cut a burr which then will make you crazy as the reed is suddenly dead sounding or plays inconsistently.
Good light, but not too bright, and reliable reference points so you can be confident you are looking 'squarely' at the reed in the slot are important for this work. I have done it just enough to believe it's not worth the trouble unless you are prepared to set up well, or do it very lightly. The time I've spent correcting my slips was really not worth it, except in that it taught me not to do it that way again.
I'm not sure how much Richard charges for the tool. I bought it in a bundle with other things.
I'll build a 'proper' work jig before I try full embossing again.
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Gary 62
134 posts
Mar 31, 2016
9:07 AM
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I hear you on the embossing. Not a thing to get into lightly as it's very easy to screw things up. The only saving grace is when you do screw it up by over embossing it's fixable and you can undo it. However that usually takes quite a bit of time and can have you cursing under your breath and saying "Man! i wish i hadn't done that!" I notice on doing a first embossing that's when it seems easy to really overdo things. You are not pressing hard with the tool but the brass is soft and easily moved so if you keep at it for too long you pluck the reed and it's stuck solid. Anyway i'm not telling you anything you don't know as you know a lot more about it than i do. Suffice to say i only emboss if i feel i really have to. I had the same problem with burrs in the #4B slot after embossing it. I too for the life of me couldn't see where the reed was catching. I viewed it with a microscope, with a jewelers loupe and still it was no good, i just couldn't nail it down. Eventually i did get it but i must have spent a whole afternoon and evening working on it to get it back to where it was working again. I've always been a tinkerer with stuff and sometimes that's not a good thing! You do learn but some of the lessons are painful.
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Mar 31, 2016 9:10 AM
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