Truth2012
23 posts
Mar 13, 2016
1:08 AM
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Is there a specific device , ie fila gauge to set up gaps on the harp?
If there which is the best or optimal gap?
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SuperBee
3511 posts
Mar 13, 2016
3:23 AM
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There isn't a specific device.
But once you have discovered your optimal gap, you can measure it with a feeler gauge and record it for future reference.
It will be different for each reed on each different key.
and the question of 'optimal' may vary from player to player.
I heard Joe Spiers suggest the thickness of the end of the reed was a reasonable place to start with an estimate of a good gap. And that's now my standard advice. There should be plenty of free video about on setting gaps. I know Joe has made some, and I'd be surprised if Andrew Zajac hasn't made one. Not sure if Richard Sleigh has a free one, but worth checking.
No one size fits all solution though.
I can go into more detail but I've done it recently on a thread...just can't remember the title atm
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Killa_Hertz
739 posts
Mar 13, 2016
2:08 PM
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Yea. Good advice Bee.
Truth .. unfortunatly you just got to feel it out for yourself. Find what feels right. I have found that MY optimal gaps have changed slightly as my playing has become better.
But as bee said a good place to start is roughly the thickness of the reed tip. I go tighter than that. I believe bee goes a bit wider. So to each his own. You gotta figure out what works for you.
Edit : MINOR ADJUSTMENTS MAY MAKE HUGE DIFFERENCE. ALSO REEDS WITHIN EACH SLOT ARE RELATIONAL, WHATEVER YOU DO TO ONE YOU SHOULD DO TO THE OTHER.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 18, 2016 1:42 PM
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Fil
119 posts
Mar 18, 2016
11:15 AM
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Ok...so, picked up my old oob Bb Sp20 and ran thru some vibrato exercises and draw bends. Then thought, let's do some blow bends. I can do them, but no draw bend out of 8 blow on this harp. Thought "shit, gotta open it up." Hate opening them up. Did that. I ended up adjusting the whole harp. It's all better. I have been a grumpy old fart gapping skeptic. But maybe there's something to it...:>)
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Phil Pennington
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Killa_Hertz
752 posts
Mar 18, 2016
1:57 PM
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Fil there ABSOLUTELY is. I honestly don't know how people play as well as they do on ootb harps.
I mean some are "ok" some are great. Most are pretty eeehhh.
This also may be why so many people play Hard. To compensate for the uneven gaps. I adjust my harps so that i can play every note evenly all the way up (well not all the way up, truth be told 8 & up doesnt get used much.) I play pretty soft most of the time.
I also have a hard time with 3 draw bends until i gap my harp. Ootb 3 draw bends are tough for me alot of the time. So i wonder if problems others have with the 3 draw bends stem from this.
I know I'm ranting, but im just curious. if some people took time to learn to gap would they have the same issues?
It doesnt take that long to learn. Atleast on a mediocre level like me. Its worth figuring out.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3518 posts
Mar 18, 2016
2:14 PM
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Learning to set the gaps revolutionised my relationship with harmonica. And id been playing a long time before i thought about how they work...before i knew about gaps it was always such an anxious moment and heavy dEcision which harp to buy. When i learnd i could just make the harp play ok by setti g the gaps...the world of harp opened up...i realized it made sense...
Yeah for sure, about the bends. So many harps benefit from some adjustment in that way. And people complain about brands and models being hard to bend or play in some other respect, its often just sub optimal reed aps
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Fil
120 posts
Mar 18, 2016
6:15 PM
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Yeah, guys. I've had a bit more time to play with the harp, and went back in for an additional tweak (learn what suits you, as you both have said). Quite remarkable, the difference.
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Phil Pennington
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Killa_Hertz
753 posts
Mar 18, 2016
10:36 PM
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Just keep tweakin phil. You ll keep finding out new ways to make it play better. It can be a bit of a trip down the rabbit hole, (gapping, reed shaping, etc.) but again .. it's worth it.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1301 posts
Mar 19, 2016
1:43 AM
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Yes!
(That's all I wanted to say, but I have to add this to avoid the spam filter. I liked it so much when I found out about it that's why I changed my name to MTG. Gapping, I mean, not the spam filter).
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ME.HarpDoc
136 posts
Mar 19, 2016
2:19 PM
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MTG. Nice double meaning. Isn't that what it says when you board the London tube (subway) train?
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Killa_Hertz
755 posts
Mar 19, 2016
2:58 PM
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I actually avoided playing a few of my harps recently because they needed work, but i just haven't felt like opening them up. Since you brought this thread up, I have brought them back to life. They now play pretty darn good. Marine Bands Making a Comeback!
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1305 posts
Mar 20, 2016
2:00 AM
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HarpDoc, Yes 'Mind the Gap' is so much part of London commuting that it's a cliché. As I remember, it got a mention in the London Olympics opening ceremony. Think Orwell's 1984 - The Mind the Gap voice is omnipresent.
In the old days, you'd arrive at a station - one with a curved platform, so creating gaps, and THE VOICE would boom out 'Mind the Gap!' and you'd wonder what visitors made of this strange message. Now I think they add '...between the train and the platform' or something that explains it.
They still insist on using phrases like 'alight from the train', 'disembark', 'egress' and all that. Charming really.
Have to say, I'm a bit fed up with MTG now. But I don't think you can change your username.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 20, 2016 2:05 AM
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SuperBee
3520 posts
Mar 20, 2016
4:30 AM
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You can start a new account. Ted Burke did it, indigo did it, several others. I thought I might do it.
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MindTheGap
1308 posts
Mar 20, 2016
11:15 AM
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Yes, I remember. He was Theo Burke before? Something like that. Maybe just mtg.
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Killa_Hertz
762 posts
Mar 20, 2016
2:06 PM
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MTG would be ok. But i think there is a certain mental image associated with ones username. I don't think people really put much thought into another's name beyond that. But if it bugs you that much go for it.
Someone in charge should be able to change it for you, but im not sure if they WILL. You may have to create a new account.
The mind the gap recording for the underground is pretty funny. Kinda like Wildwood,NJ (a beach town) They have a trolley that runs up and down the boardwalk. Its called the TramCar. And there is a recording it plays when people are in the way which says "Watch the tramcar please."
It doubles as a horn so sometimes the driver hits it a few times n it sounds like ... " wa..wa ..watch the tram...wa watch the tram car please." N you can hear it running up n down the 3.5 mile boardwalk all night n day. Pretty annoying at times, but its also part of the charm of wildwood.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Gary 62
117 posts
Mar 21, 2016
10:04 AM
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Slightly off topic but because we're talking reeds and stuff. I embossed my 'C' harp and got it working beautifully. All the overblows are great and easy to play. So yesterday i got my'A' out and the #4 OB was not sounding as easy as i wanted so i had it gapped and everything so i thought i'd emboss a bit on it. Did the embossing and stayed on it a bit longer because i thought "if i overdo it i'll just press the sides back out again." So anyway the reed stuck. I knew that was gonna happen but the trouble i had getting it back to playing this time! No problem on the 'C' but i was getting catching and i'd look up to the light and it looked as if i had a gap yet i could still feel it catching. Hmmm! Looked again pushed a bit more filed a bit with a little needle file to remove any burrs.
Bottom line i have it back playing but it sounds less high end than before. Maybe a bit more muffled. I can still get the OB and stuff on it but it's not exactly the way i want it. More work required! It was soo easy on my 'C' harp! yes it took a lot of time but everything ended up beautiful. This time was a bit different. When i did my 'C' harp i erred on the side of caution and didn't emboss too heavily. This time as i stated above i was conscious i was embossing more but thought i'd fix it easily later on. I think because of my success with my 'C' harp the 'A' would be easy too. Any of you guys do embossing and have any tricks or ideas?
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Mar 21, 2016 10:04 AM
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SuperBee
3522 posts
Mar 21, 2016
1:59 PM
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Hi gary.
I dont do embossing as a rule. Ive done some, and ive replaced reeds in previously embossed harps. The experiences ive had with it convinced me that its not something to take casually, as it has potential to make a good harp really hard work when you mess up. If you must do it, do it lightly, or set yourself up to do it properly. Its time consuming to correct once you go too far.
Sometimes the easiest thing for me is to remove the reed, carefully work on the slot, then replace the reed. And then get your reed shape right.
Ive got harps from joe spiers, stage 2. Theyre the easiest overblow harps i have, but after playing around with overblows for a while i decided i really only want the 6. Joe manages to make these harps play well for general use, wheras many 'overblow' harps ive seen seem a bit compromised. If youre building harps that playbreally well and deliver all the overblows easily i suspect youre already way ahead of my game in tgat regard.
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Gary 62
119 posts
Mar 21, 2016
2:33 PM
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SuperBee: Yeah i worked on my C harp and have it playing beautifully on 4 5 6 and the 7 and 9 overdraws as well, though they are harder to play IMO.
I noticed that on the A harp on slot 4 that i'm finding it really hard to get the OB now unless i have the gap down to nothing. Then the regular blow note tone tends to suck a bit. Back it off and i can't get the OB. That's a cool OB because i found a lesson from Adam in playing a boogie woogie in First Position. When you go the 4 chord that OB is the flat 7 of the chord. You just can't do it without that OB.
Something i forgot to mention. I twisted that reed slightly. As in if you look at the reed with the rivet away from you so you are looking along the reed from tip to rivet one side seemed higher up and slanted than the other. I think that happened when i was using a feeler guage to center the reed in the slot. I think i used one slightly too thick and that's how that happened. Anyway i pretty much corrected it using a tiny set of jewelers tweezers. It seems to be level now and ok.
Sometimes i would like to forget about embossing because then you wouldn't have all this extra work and effort all the time. However when you want those OB's the harp just doesn't respond without at least a bit of embossing i feel. I like you would like to just use the 6 OB but now i've tasted the fruits of what you can do with the 4 as well i feel i'm cheating myself if i don't use it!
As far as hard work Bee you're dead right! I spent most of yesterday with the A harp in pieces looking at gaps to see if i had any burrs catching the reed and then filing them down then checking again... Hours and hours and hours! I'm kinda obsessive this way though.
I picked up the centering reed thing from Tinus who told me the quickest way to do it was with a really thin feeler guage. So i bought a new set that go's down to a 0.02mm! It's literally wafer thin!
To anyone who asked me i'd say don't ever get into embossing, unless you're really obsessed with perfection. As you say it can really give you a lot of extra headaches and hours spent over the harp adjusting and adjusting. I feel unless you're seriously into OB's it just doesn't seem to justify the time and effort. Once you jump in and start though it's too late to go back as you tend to become hooked!
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Mar 21, 2016 2:44 PM
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Killa_Hertz
799 posts
Mar 24, 2016
11:56 AM
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i was going to mention the feeler guage. I use a .0025 to get between the reeds. I dont emboss tho. I tried it a few times. ruined some harps. got one going ok, but wasnt worth it. I think its a waste of time, for me it surely is because i dont overblow. Maybe my thoughts will change when I start to learn OBs.
I have one suggestion. You probably already know this. But when adjusting the 4 ... you say all the way closed and OB fine, but regular sucks. Open a lil and Regualr is good but OB sucks.
Are you also adjusting the 4 blow reed? because you know they effect eachother.
Again I dont mean to tell you things you already know, but just a thought.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Gary 62
121 posts
Mar 25, 2016
7:27 PM
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Killa: Thanks for the ideas. I don't know if i want to continue with playing OB's. The work on the harp and the practice of them really eats into time you could be spending doing other things like perfecting your tone or your bends or phrasing. All those things seem a lot more important than OB's. So i'm kinda on the fence with them; i can see the possibilities with them but the baggage that go's with them is a real pain in the butt!
BTW: That spam prevention thing is a real pain on this forum. Is there no way something else can be added to get rid of it? I'm on a few forums and none of them have that.
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Killa_Hertz
817 posts
Mar 25, 2016
9:32 PM
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Yea gary. The spam thing is kind of something everyone hates, but its apparently harder to fix than one would think. So we just deal with it.
How long have you been playing gary?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Gary 62
122 posts
Mar 25, 2016
9:51 PM
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Oh maybe about a year. I can't remember when i started but it's about that or a bit less. I find the OB's seem to work better on a C harp and the A is harder at least on hole 4. See i watched a video from Ronnie Shellist where he talks about this and i tend to agree with what he says. Most people who OB sound absolutely horrible! Usually off pitch and out of tune. I'll link to it at the bottom here. Maybe you've seen it already? He lays out some stuff a lot of people might not want to hear. But it's the truth and reality of the situation. Maybe that's why Howard Levy is such a genius!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jvTwv3czh4
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Mar 25, 2016 9:51 PM
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Killa_Hertz
818 posts
Mar 26, 2016
5:14 AM
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Yea. I have messed with Overblows. Just to the point of seeing if i could do them. There is alot of practice involved in making them sound good. Just like bending i suppose.
But i think most people would say that overblowing is a technique that's a little advanced for you. And me aswell. Just something to consider i guess. As you said maybe time better suited working on other things. Just my train of thought.
I would like to eventually learn atleast the 6OB. It would be pretty useful.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Gary 62
123 posts
Mar 26, 2016
9:59 AM
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I'm caught in between loving and hating them in equal measure! Some days i swear i'll never play them again only to weaken the next day and try to get into it again. Did you watch that video? What did you think?
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Killa_Hertz
826 posts
Mar 26, 2016
1:28 PM
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Yes ive seen that video before.
That's pretty much what i was getting at. Like ronnie says "Only a handful of guys he would enjoy listening to." Because they are tough. And take alot of time to master. And most people think they do them well, but they suck and you can pick the OBs out all day. They also over use them, i feel. Thats why i say if i could just learn the 6ob. It is the one that is most needed/useful i think.
I pretty much modeled my whole playing style after Ronnie. He uses Pucker and TB pretty equally. Whichever is the best tool for the job at that time.
But the point is, when you've got nothing left to master, Then do Overblows. Or atleast when you ve got less to master. Because how long you ve been playing, your probably somewhere in my neighborhood. And i know I've got TONS of things on the list ahead of learning OverBlows.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong, but i have gangs of holes in my harp game. Overblows really arent a priority to me.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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